Teaching dog to run with me

[RB Will]

Hi all. Weather is improving so I will be running more now. I would like to take the dog with me but she does not run with me, she will either pull on the lead/ jump up at me or if she is off the lead runs around me barking.

How does one go about training your dog to run with you?
Also will making her do this encourage any jogger chasing behaviour as I really don't want to do that.

[Jasandjules]

When I did it I found that the dog was a bit too busy trying to ensure she didn't get choked by the lead to worry about much else!?? And she really seemed to enjoy it too - the other one was hopeless mind but he had no interest in running at all.

I would say in your case to build it up slowly then, perhaps whilst walking walk her at a faster pace, then increase to a run for a few seconds, then back to walk, then back to run, and so on until she gets used to just running...

[rudecherub]

You need to teach her to heel properly and build from there.

I'm working a young collie for my sister now, basics involve a traditional choke chain.

pick a side, usually the left, and walk around the garden or similar place with ideally few distractions. Do this until the dog gets it. Ideally say 10/20 mins sessions four times a day.

get the dog to walk by your side not pulling, every time it pulls yank back hard, reinforce heel command by tapping the side of your (left) leg. ie verbal and visual/sound command. If the dog still pulls/walks ahead of you despite the hard yank back, reprimand by striking/grabbing the nose along with your usual 'No'

Once you've got her by your heel insert random sit commands, then you can start the speeding up.

Remember the pack order, the dog will test this by pushing boundaries, a inch might seem cute at the time, but it will translate into a mile in the dogs mind as it tries to assert itself in the pack.

oh. and the dog make take the cues from your usual walkies pattern, so let it know that this is 'work' so when you put the running shoes on it knows this isn't play. By all means play before hand for a bit to get rid of energy, and afterwards for reward.

Edited by rudecherub on Saturday 19th March 14:41

[anonymous-user]

rudecherub said:

You need to teach her to heel properly and build from there.

I'm working a young collie for my sister now, basics involve a traditional choke chain.

pick a side, usually the left, and walk around the garden or similar place with ideally few distractions. Do this until the dog gets it. Ideally say 10/20 mins sessions four times a day.

get the dog to walk by your side not pulling, every time it pulls yank back hard, reinforce heel command by tapping the side of your (left) leg. ie verbal and visual/sound command. If the dog still pulls/walks ahead of you despite the hard yank back, reprimand by striking/grabbing the nose along with your usual 'No'

Once you've got her by your heel insert random sit commands, then you can start the speeding up.

Remember the pack order, the dog will test this by pushing boundaries, a inch might seem cute at the time, but it will translate into a mile in the dogs mind as it tries to assert itself in the pack.

oh. and the dog make take the cues from your usual walkies pattern, so let it know that this is 'work' so when you put the running shoes on it knows this isn't play. By all means play before hand for a bit to get rid of energy, and afterwards for reward.

Edited by rudecherub on Saturday 19th March 14:41

Im not sure yanking a dog by the neck or striking the nose is the way I would do it!

[Moo27]

Definitely not the way to do it!

If youre teaching a dog to 'heel' if they get ahead of you, you simply stop, say the word 'heel' and turn to face the other way.... They will stop with you, then you can turn around and continue walking..... And then continue the very long laborious process. The dog will eventually learn, and they will learn by command instead of being petrified of you by yanking on their collar or smacking them in the face!!!!


Jasandjules has said the best way to teach a dog to run with you... startb off walking faster, then walk... then run for a minute, then walk... and so on and so forth!

[therealpigdog]

Moo27 said:

Definitely not the way to do it!

If youre teaching a dog to 'heel' if they get ahead of you, you simply stop, say the word 'heel' and turn to face the other way.... They will stop with you, then you can turn around and continue walking..... And then continue the very long laborious process. The dog will eventually learn, and they will learn by command instead of being petrified of you by yanking on their collar or smacking them in the face!!!!


Jasandjules has said the best way to teach a dog to run with you... startb off walking faster, then walk... then run for a minute, then walk... and so on and so forth!

this.

[rudecherub]

MonkeyMatt said:

Im not sure yanking a dog by the neck or striking the nose is the way I would do it!

The bh when the dog was a puppy disciplined the puppy in this manner, nipping the puppies nose. That's why it works, look at dogs in a status spat the lip curls and they snap at each others mouths. it's behaviour 101. If you want to assert yourself as pack leader.

As for a properly applied choke chain yanks against the shoulders, but by all means if not being assertive works for you then fine.

[Jasandjules]

rudecherub said:

The bh when the dog was a puppy disciplined the puppy in this manner, nipping the puppies nose. That's why it works, look at dogs in a status spat the lip curls and they snap at each others mouths. it's behaviour 101. If you want to assert yourself as pack leader.

As for a properly applied choke chain yanks against the shoulders, but by all means if not being assertive works for you then fine.

In part you are correct, but in other ways not so much. You can assert dominance without smacking the dog on the nose. In terms of heel work, a long line is most useful here IMHO, with repeated changes of direction and your hands in front so that the dog can't see them, that way the dog has to watch where you are going at all times.

I know it sounds like madness, but I often growl at a dog when they are doing something wrong, they are fully aware that this means I am not happy and they stop what they are doing - usually for example when they try to sneak a peek at us eating, which is not permitted.

[Wildsea]

If I started running with my dog I would run with the dog in a harness clipped to a belt round my waist, with the dog in front. Not a good idea if you are running along pavements, but I would run cross country anyway

Best people to ask are these guys http://cani-cross.co.uk.

[Mrs Grumpy]

Pack leader / dominance is a very much outdated concept. It was based on a flawed study of captive wolves. Look up Dave Mech.

In any event, dogs are a different animal from a wolf, plus we are not dogs so cannot possibly hope to emulate the finer nuances of how dogs communicate. Incidentally they use three main methods: facial expressions and body posture, olfaction and vocalisation. I'm not exactly sure how we as humans are supposed to understand all of that, let alone pretend to behave like one.

Choke chains
They can cause physical damage:

• Injured ocular blood vessels
• Tracheal and oesophageal damage
• Severely sprained necks
• Cases of fainting
• Transient foreleg paralysis
• Laryngeal nerve paralysis
• Hind leg ataxia

In addition, they can cause behavioural problems. As they cause pain if a dog lunges or pulls while wearing one, a dog can associate the pain with whatever he is lunging or pulling at - for instance other dogs or people. This can lead him to become agressive towards other dogs or people as every time he sees one he gets a pain in the neck. Doubly dangerous if the dog is already fear aggressive towards other dogs or people.

Choke/check chains do not teach a dog to walk on a loose lead - they teach a dog to avoid the pain associated with pulling on a choke/check chain.

See here:
Association of Pet Dogs Trainers - Choke Chain Leaflet
"Let's Teach Them, Not Choke Them"
Why the UK APDT is against the use of Choke Chains

Positive Dogs - Choke Chains - The Dangers and Hidden Dangers

Dog Remedies - The Dangers of Choke, Pinch (prong), and Shock Collars

How to teach dogs to walk to heel, or at least on a loose lead:
Loose Lead Walking
and The 300 peck approach to building duration 300 peck can be used to build duration for anything such as a stay.

Loose lead walking videos on this page

Loose lead walking from Association of Pet Dog Trainers (APDT)

And some really good videos on achieving loose lead walking using a clicker

Part 1: http://www.vimeo.com/13110409

Part 2: http://www.vimeo.com/13562479

Part 3: http://www.vimeo.com/13321611

Hope that helps

PS - I have never been 'assertive', felt the need to be a 'pack leader' or to dominate any of the several foster dogs I've had over the past four years. Mostly that causes more issues and in fact is the reason why a lot of dogs end up in rescue as some mong thinks they know what they are doing and just ends up with a fear aggressive dog. Rather than swallowing their pride and asking someone who actually knows what they are doing to show them how to train a dog, they fling it into rescue as a 'bad' dog and leave it to someone else to sort out.

Edited by Mrs Grumpy on Sunday 20th March 13:22

[nick_j007]

I agree. Choke/check collars should not even be sold imo. A well fitted broad lead and collar is the way to go. Some prefer harnesses, but I've seen too many dogs slip them!

[tenex]

rudecherub said:

Stuff

I'm perhaps one of the more hardliners here.
Rudecherub, I've seen so many working dogs wrecked using your methods you wouldn't believe.
I am not an advocate of the "leisure dog approach". It just does not work for working dogs.
However,even I find your methods excessive,unnecessary and frankly unproductive in the long run.

[nick_j007]

rudecherub said:

You need to teach her to heel properly and build from there.

I'm working a young collie for my sister now, basics involve a traditional choke chain.

pick a side, usually the left, and walk around the garden or similar place with ideally few distractions. Do this until the dog gets it. Ideally say 10/20 mins sessions four times a day.

get the dog to walk by your side not pulling, every time it pulls yank back hard, reinforce heel command by tapping the side of your (left) leg. ie verbal and visual/sound command. If the dog still pulls/walks ahead of you despite the hard yank back, reprimand by striking/grabbing the nose along with your usual 'No'

Once you've got her by your heel insert random sit commands, then you can start the speeding up.

Remember the pack order, the dog will test this by pushing boundaries, a inch might seem cute at the time, but it will translate into a mile in the dogs mind as it tries to assert itself in the pack.

oh. and the dog make take the cues from your usual walkies pattern, so let it know that this is 'work' so when you put the running shoes on it knows this isn't play. By all means play before hand for a bit to get rid of energy, and afterwards for reward.

Edited by rudecherub on Saturday 19th March 14:41

I missed this post. Poor collie! You sound a bit of a brute stuck in an era that has (for most of us) passed a long time ago.

[rudecherub]

tenex said:

I'm perhaps one of the more hardliners here.
Rudecherub, I've seen so many working dogs wrecked using your methods you wouldn't believe.
I am not an advocate of the "leisure dog approach". It just does not work for working dogs.
However,even I find your methods excessive,unnecessary and frankly unproductive in the long run.

Shrug. Said Dog gets into the car in advance in anticipation wanting to come to see me, has completed a six week course in 4, and I was told by a professional trainer I was the best handler she had seen this year.

You are obviously reading into my methods levels of aggression, inconsistency and violence not suggested or condoned

[tenex]

To my mind, CHOKE CHAIN......HARD YANK BACK........NOSE GRABBING is pretty unambiguous.
The principle of what you are trying to do is along the right lines.
The method is just far too heavy handed which is counterproductive and totally unnecessary.

[Wildsea]

rudecherub said:

I was told by a professional trainer I was the best handler she had seen this year.

It depends on the "professional" trainer. If I heard the above comment from some of them I would take that as the biggest insult to my training and take a serious look at the relationship between me and my dog.

Many professional trainers are using outdated and harsh training methods such as the ones you described.You in their eyes may be the best handler this year. In the eyes of other trainers they would be shocked by your methods.

[Mrs Grumpy]

And that 'professional' trainer would not be a member of the APDT as they do not allow their members to use choke chains or any other aversives.

[nick_j007]

rudecherub said:

You are obviously reading into my methods levels of aggression, inconsistency and violence not suggested or condoned

Well I think you left yourself way open to criticism when you said: "...every time it pulls yank back hard, reinforce heel command by tapping the side of your (left) leg. ie verbal and visual/sound command. If the dog still pulls/walks ahead of you despite the hard yank back, reprimand by striking/grabbing the nose along with your usual 'No'"

I'm a professional trainer and this is doing nothing more than getting the dog to comply using force and fear. Not sure how much collie experience you have, but this is not the way to go about handling a collie (let alone any other breed). Look, you made the statement and I feel it's my duty to point out that this is not the way to go about it. Indeed, depending on the breed, the age, the level of poor on lead behaviour to start with, one could use a wide range of methods to get a dog walking to heel that avoid any harsh handling. I'm sure that all the PH'ers on this sub forum are avid animal lovers, and you just walked in and took the pin out the grenade

If I were you, I'd give it up and keep your head down for a while

[nick_j007]

RB Will said:

Hi all. Weather is improving so I will be running more now. I would like to take the dog with me but she does not run with me, she will either pull on the lead/ jump up at me or if she is off the lead runs around me barking.

How does one go about training your dog to run with you?
Also will making her do this encourage any jogger chasing behaviour as I really don't want to do that.

To prevent this slipping into picking on one poster, I thought it might be nice to give some advice to the OP...novel eh?

I think others have been right by pointing out that the walk will need to be sorted first, and then to introduce speed up to the speed you will run/jog at. So that in itself is quite a simple idea, but implementing it can be easier said than done. Keep it all simple and avoid getting caught up in complicated methods. For example I like clickers and use them here and there, but I would personally avoid one here as it may get in your way.

I know what I want to describe was placed into an article not too long ago so indulge me posting a link to it: http://www.fieldandrurallife.com/magazine/february...

Please read the above link. I hope you'll find it practical, straightforward and effective.

I can then repeat the fact that all you need to do is to add (gradually) more speed until you are near the speed you wish to run. Along the way however your dog may show signs of pulling ahead again, so use the techniques as set out in my above link. Another common problem when adding speed is dealing with excitement in the dog that results in getting light at the front end (car terms never far away) and this may turn into jumping up at you. Just watch the dog carefully and ensure that the dog maintains a nice trotting pattern in the feet. If you see both feet bounding forward together (as if running fast) then you are most likely about to see the dog jump up or she's going too fast for your comfort I expect. You can probably calm this without stopping by issuing a calm command such as 'Steady' as you offer light 'braking' in the lead. You should see the correct trotting pattern return.

By the way, you'll need some extra basic control for: Stop and wait, sit, forward, left and right. I'm sure you'll be fine with all of those, but for left I say 'Back' and right I say 'Close'. These can be implemented during basic heel work sessions.

This is all in your preparation, so get a genuinely decent walk first, then add the speed.

What breed and age please?

I would never run with a dog off lead (I've done my fair share of running with dogs) as it could be argued that you don't have full control. Also don't do what I saw a woman doing recently...allowed her black lab to run ahead of her on a fully extended retractable. Way too little control and not good on numerous levels. Safety will be a primary concern when out running.

Will you make your dog a chaser? I see no reason why frankly. Ensure you have good off lead control overall, so a good recall, good sit/down stay.

Btw, you might find this of interest? http://www.cani-cross.co.uk/

Good luck, ask anything you like.

Nick

[Georgiegirl]

I have nothing practical to add other than to echo others advice of start slowly - my partner decided to take one of our rescue dogs out jogging with him, returned ten minutes later with a face like thunder, two bloody palms and both the knees out of his joggers.
He didn't take him again.