Skubi the springer, growling-any ideas?

[ssray]

We have a beautiful 15 month old springer called Skubi which we have had since he was 8 weeks old, he does have a cheeky personality but is fun also. The past 12 months have been quite hard with training etc but we are finally getting there and all that hard work and perserverence is starting to pay off...that was until about a week ago....When he is fed he is made to sit and wait, gives us his paw and then given the command to eat his food but with me he gets to giving his paw and starts to growl menacingly so I take his food away and he is made to go into his cage. Not all the time but occasionally when I give him other commands he will growl and a couple of times bared his teeth and again is made to go in his cage. When my wife gives commands and feeds him she does not get any growling or "answering back!". Bit confused as to why this is happening.

More serious though he has started - only occasionally - growling at the children (6 years and 4 years). They spend time with him playing and just chilling and at bedtime they give him a hug and stroke and its all okay; but recently when they do this he is growling at them. He is reprimanded (no smacking though) and made to go to his cage. He has also started to growl when the children want to feed him (my wife or myself are standing close by to make sure they get the instruction right). My wife and I are concerned about this and we obviously want to nip this in the bud before it gets worse. We do not want to get rid of Skubi he's part of the family but the children have to come first.

Any ideas anyone please?

Thanks Ray

[SPR2]

This sounds unusal for a springer does he spend a lot of time in his cage?

[Mrs Grumpy]

If this is a new thing, I would get him checked out by a vet to make sure there is nothing medical going on which is causing him discomfort or pain.

Next thing - and this is very, very important - DO NOT reprimand him for growling. There is a reason he is doing it. He is telling you he is not happy about something. Growling is a warning sign. Perhaps you have missed some more subtle signs that he has given you that he is unhappy, so he's now upped it to growling as you were not taking any notice of him saying 'please'.

If you stop the warning signs (growling) he will likely go straight to bite We see a lot of dogs like that in rescue, sadly. Had the warning signs 'trained' out of them, so it may look like the dog is OK, but this will not have addressed the underlying emotional response and at some point they cannot contain themselves and so the stress has to come out somehow.

If the vet check is OK, I would get in a proper behaviourist. It's possible he may find your body language intimidating, but not your wife's. Unfortunately it is almost impossible to say without seeing it.

Hope it all works out OK.

[ssray]

I have spoken to a police dog handler, he thinks its adolescence and heshould responde to training he also says they have all there dogs `done`(uncrosses legs) did not want to go that route but may.
Cheers
Ray

[Mrs Grumpy]

Training can be quite different to behavioural work, but I hope it works out. Don't expect castration to fix all his issues though. If he is fearful and going through a fear stage it could make things worse.

This is why I always recommend getting a proper behaviourist in. There are so many reasons why he could be doing this. Doing the wrong things could make things go very pear shaped.

Fingers crossed for him.

[bexVN]

Got to be honest don't agree with the giving paw before every meal, not sure if Mrs Grumpy would agree and she is probably better qualified on this than me but I'd be tempted to drop it, but don't want him to learn that by growling something will be stopped.

Growling at children bigger concern has anything happened to make him wary of situations recently?

[Jasandjules]

Anything changed in the household to upset him? Have you taken him to the vet to make sure there is nothing wrong? (hurt dog and you make it worse can = growling at you). He is also maturing however.

Why do you get him to give a paw for food? Making him sit and wait until you permit him to eat is to my mind sufficient. If you don't ask him for a paw does he growl at you?

Sending him to his cage - does he growl when you do that?

Is he from pet or working stock?

[nick_j007]

A vet check is worthwhile to start with as it seems to be recent, though in my experience I've only ever had 1 dog come back with a thyroid problem All others were clear...so you'll most likely be looking at behaviour.

With this sort of behaviour I advise you to seek out a behaviourist that is used to seeing aggression cases. I would not allow dog hugging by the children. Many dogs find this too much to cope with. Children can be intent on face kisses (to the dog) and this accounts for most bites to children's faces. So, avoid the cuddly aspect (for now at least) and concentrate on involving them in short positive training sessions with you.

What's needed here is to improve the standing of the kids in the dog's mind, and to remove low level stress that your dog is experiencing (hence the growls, which is of course a warning). This is where your specialist comes in.

Good luck. Where are you and I can put you in touch with somebody to guide you.

Best of luck,

Nick

[pikeyboy]

This does sound a bit like an adolecence thing to me, in my opinion he is challenging you for pack leadership. To address this I'd get hold of his jowls (cheeks)get right in his face and growl back no. Seems a bit pointless making him give you his paw, I like to make mine sit and then wait varying lengths of time before giving the go (release) comand. You also shouold be able to make them sit whilst eating and remove food with no grumbling.

You should also not be using the cage as a punishment area.

[Mrs Grumpy]

pikeyboy said:

This does sound a bit like an adolecence thing to me, in my opinion he is challenging you for pack leadership. To address this I'd get hold of his jowls (cheeks)get right in his face and growl back no. Seems a bit pointless making him give you his paw, I like to make mine sit and then wait varying lengths of time before giving the go (release) comand. You also shouold be able to make them sit whilst eating and remove food with no grumbling.

You should also not be using the cage as a punishment area.

'Pack leadership' is a very much outdated concept. Dogs are not wolves and even if they were, a wild wolf pack is a family unit with benign leadership. In the same vein, humans are not dogs and cannot hope to fully pick up and understand all the subtle signals given out by dogs, let alone emulate them.

Removing food from the bowl will turn them into a food guarder.

ANY positive punishment will damage the relationship with a dog and will teach them nothing other than to be scared of you, be frightened to show any behaviour at all for fear of getting it wrong (learned helplessness) and will simply escalate up the ladder of aggression.

As I said - a proper behaviourist (one who is up to date with modern training methods) is the only safe way forward.

I currently have a very scared, snarling, growling, shouty, bitey dog here with me. You try any of that pack leadership/dominance ste with her and you would have lost your face by now. It's what's made her like it in the first place. Shoving your face into a dog's face is a pretty good way of losing it. She arrived Friday afternoon and I had to wear gardening gloves to be able to do what little handling was necessary without losing any fingers. By yesterday afternoon she was asleep on the living room floor with two humans and two dogs in the same room.

Edited by Mrs Grumpy on Sunday 6th February 11:05

[bexVN]

Op I back Mrs Grumpys advice.

Do not growl back at your dog this is dangerous ground to enter unless for some reason it is advised by a good professional (though unlikely). I can sort of see why it has been suggested but the outcome is much more likely to be negative not positive far too risky.

[pikeyboy]

You ladies are entitled to your opinions obviously and I respect these as you both speak from experience and I agree professional advice is always better than hear say on an internet forum. However, please respect my opinion and advice. The facts are its an 18 month old dog who is a bit grumbley and doesnt seem to want to do what the head of the house is asking and I would have dealt with this as out lined in my first post. Maybe the OP will let us know what the behaviourist advises. Perhaps he should also contact the breeder of his dog for advice, it might be a trait of the litter.

For info personally I like to try and make sure my dog's know their place in the pecking order ie below me, my family, the caterham, the pot plant, kitchen sink, loo roll etc. I acheive this through positive means ie entering door ways first making sure i can remove food from them and only giving them praise when I decide they should have it etc. Using these methods I have trained working pointers which I have never given harsh treatment to. They respect both me, my familly, know their place and are a pleasure to be around. PS these are house dogs ie familly pets too, not kenneled which makes training much more complicated for example you need them to retrieve and not be worried about picking things up but not run around with the TV remotes sofa cushions etc.

[ssray]

Thanks for the advice,
He is from a long line of working stock, with lots of field champs etc,we keep in touch and see the breeder every few months, he last saw the vet about 2 weeks ago with no problems.

Paw before grub-gone, hugging by the kids- gone.

we do go through doors first, he sits and waits well,he leaves the room when we eat(mostly on his own accord), when he grabs a slipper etc it is easy to retrieve.

We see the breeder next in 2 weeks, will ask them then.

we are based near Stourbridge, west mids.

There are local classes, may take him back there as he did puppy training there and she seems quite switched on.

Thanks for the advice so far.

Ray