Hyperactive dog, Advice required

[ChrisRS]

I'm looking for a bit of advice regarding a rather hyperactive dog.

We got him from the local dog rescue centre at the start of July this year, at the time of collecting him we were told he was approx 18 months old, however i suspect he's probably only 18 months old now. I've had dogs throughtout my childhood but this is the first dog i've had full responsability for (I'm 27).

Presently we have no children, i work full time and my g/friend works evenings so he's normally got company, I walk him every morning before work for an hour along the canal toe path and the same on an evening after work, on weekends we usually go to the woods for a bit of a change, again for at least an hour morning and evening.

We reckon he's a cross between a border collie & whippet although he's only small. The problem i'm having is he never stops lol! Whilst on his lead he pull's and sniffs absolutly everything, i started out with a retractable lead which i feel didn't help, he's now got a short slip lead which i use to try and stop him pulling.

Over the last couple of weeks i've been concentrating on recall training, we started off really well but if he see's another dog or a bird/rabbit there's nothing i can do to get him back until he's had his fun!

Basically i'm looking for a few tips, he's currently as nature intended but a few people i speak to say i'd be wise to have him castrated.

Meet Disco, my best friend!

Edited by ChrisRS on Sunday 14th November 16:57

[bexVN]

1. Get him neutered but to keep him slim reduce food intake by 20% immediately after op (well 10 days post op give him chance to rcover first)
2. Ask vets for a GOOD dog trainer to help with the recall, he is a dog that really really needs to be off the lead if you can. You need to make yourself more entertaining than e.g. the dog he's playing with, even if that means jumping up and down, whooping and waving your arms. (I sometimes had to do things like this when my whippet was a youngster, worked 99% of the time!) Keep letting him off the lead, walk with fellow dog walkers if you can that have playful dogs, he's less likely to run off after a dog, if he does ask them if you can walk with them for a few mins and explain you are training an ex rescue dog if you need to, some may be happy to help, others will be miserable gits about it though!!
3. What is he being fed, diet can sometimes contribute towards hyper behaviour.
4. Find high quality, boredom distractor toys, they cost more than the average but are worth it
5. Teach him new skills, dog agility classes may be worth it, although be careful as this can increase a dogs hyper behaviour!

If he was just whippet chances are you wouldn't have the issues, it's the collie in him

Was it a private rescue, as most rescue centres neuter dogs before rehoming.

Edited by bexVN on Sunday 14th November 18:10

Edited by bexVN on Sunday 14th November 18:11

[ChrisRS]

bexVN said:

1. Get him neutered but to keep him slim reduce food intake by 20% immediately after op (well 10 days post op give him chance to rcover first)
2. Ask vets for a GOOD dog trainer to help with the recall, he is a dog that really really needs to be off the lead if you can
3. What is he being fed, diet can sometimes contribute towards hyper behaviour.
4. Find high quality, boredom distractor toys, they cost more than the average but are worth it
5. Teach him new skills, dog agility classes may be worth it.

If he was just whippet chances are you wouldn't have the issues, it's the collie in him

Was it a private rescue, as most rescue centres neuter dogs before rehoming.

Thanks for the response, we've been feeding him Purina Pro Plus, sometimes add a bit of chicken or turkey, i agree regarding the need for him been off the lead, at the moment he's probably off the lead for approx 40 mins a day, usually take a ball to try and keep him entertained.

Rescue home was a small local private place, he was only in there for a week before we collected him, previously he was with a single parent who couldn't cope with him, i really want to do the very best for the little guy. In your experience will the neutering make a big difference?

[mybrainhurts]

[bexVN]

ChrisRS said:

bexVN said:

1. Get him neutered but to keep him slim reduce food intake by 20% immediately after op (well 10 days post op give him chance to rcover first)
2. Ask vets for a GOOD dog trainer to help with the recall, he is a dog that really really needs to be off the lead if you can
3. What is he being fed, diet can sometimes contribute towards hyper behaviour.
4. Find high quality, boredom distractor toys, they cost more than the average but are worth it
5. Teach him new skills, dog agility classes may be worth it.

If he was just whippet chances are you wouldn't have the issues, it's the collie in him

Was it a private rescue, as most rescue centres neuter dogs before rehoming.

Thanks for the response, we've been feeding him Purina Pro Plus, sometimes add a bit of chicken or turkey, i agree regarding the need for him been off the lead, at the moment he's probably off the lead for approx 40 mins a day, usually take a ball to try and keep him entertained.

Rescue home was a small local private place, he was only in there for a week before we collected him, previously he was with a single parent who couldn't cope with him, i really want to do the very best for the little guy. In your experience will the neutering make a big difference?

No guarantees but should help reduce his excitement to run off and take the edge off, it shouldn't change behaviour too much though.

Purina pro plan is what I feed my whippet so I think that is fine some people claim a higher protein diets causes hyper behaviour but the counter argument is all you do by lowering protein in a diet is take away the true character of the dog and sometimes risk them not having enough protein. I wouldn't change his food at this time.

He's a lovely looking dog btw and you will find a way to curb his over excitement a bit

[ChrisRS]

Thanks Bex, he really is a great dog, we love him to bits, the way he cheers me up when i get in from a bad day at work is unbelievable.

I'm going to call the vets this week and discuss neutering, eventually we want to get him a little friend (male) to play with but we need to get on top of him first.

[anonymous-user]

Teach him to catch rabbits!

[Mrs Grumpy]

Agree with Bex on everything she said

The other thing is - if he is part collie - he will need mental as well as physical stimulation. I use clicker training for all sorts of things. You can 'free shape' dogs to learn complicated stuff, step by step.

Any clicker training book by Karen Pryor is good.

What area of the country are you in? I might know a good trainer for you

[ChrisRS]

Mrs Grumpy said:

Agree with Bex on everything she said

The other thing is - if he is part collie - he will need mental as well as physical stimulation. I use clicker training for all sorts of things. You can 'free shape' dogs to learn complicated stuff, step by step.

Any clicker training book by Karen Pryor is good.

What area of the country are you in? I might know a good trainer for you

Thanks Mrs Grumpy, all his markings suggest Collie, plus we've looks at pics of collie/whippet crosses which helps confirm it, not sure what to do for mental stimulation, we play with him all the time but i know he needs more.

I'll PM you my location, i take it a dog trainer train' both the dog and show's it's owners how to communicate effectivly with the dog?

[Mrs Grumpy]

ChrisRS said:

Mrs Grumpy said:

Agree with Bex on everything she said

The other thing is - if he is part collie - he will need mental as well as physical stimulation. I use clicker training for all sorts of things. You can 'free shape' dogs to learn complicated stuff, step by step.

Any clicker training book by Karen Pryor is good.

What area of the country are you in? I might know a good trainer for you

Thanks Mrs Grumpy, all his markings suggest Collie, plus we've looks at pics of collie/whippet crosses which helps confirm it, not sure what to do for mental stimulation, we play with him all the time but i know he needs more.

I'll PM you my location, i take it a dog trainer train' both the dog and show's it's owners how to communicate effectivly with the dog?

That is what a good trainer should do, yes

[tenex]

ChrisRS said:

Thanks Bex, he really is a great dog, we love him to bits, the way he cheers me up when i get in from a bad day at work is unbelievable.

I'm going to call the vets this week and discuss neutering, eventually we want to get him a little friend (male) to play with but we need to get on top of him first.

My advice,as usual

1 Start again. Train basic commands in the house.
2 Learn to say NO and mean it.
3 Introduce, say, two 10 minute training periods when out on your walk. Inbetween times just carry on as normal.Then gradually increase the training periods.
4 Leave all treats at home. Praise is sufficient.
5 Only neuter the dog as a last resort. As has been said this might reduce the problem but it will not get rid of it.

6 As you rightly said don't get a pal. It will make matters 1000 times worse.

I am not an advocate of the passive method of training unless you are dealing with an extremely gifted dog/person. From what I've seen it just does not work.(And I've seen a few). Equally thrashing a dog is just pure ignorance.
Just be firm and consistant. Others can help but at the end of the day YOU have to do it.

[bexVN]

Why only neuter as a last resort, sometimes that too late.

[ChrisRS]

bexVN said:

Why only neuter as a last resort, sometimes that too late.

Bex, i've been reading up on neutering this evening and i'm going to call the vet in the morning to discuss it, a lot of the information suggests having it done before the dogs 12 months old, is there any reason for this.

Edited by ChrisRS on Sunday 14th November 20:39

[ChrisRS]

tenex said:

ChrisRS said:

Thanks Bex, he really is a great dog, we love him to bits, the way he cheers me up when i get in from a bad day at work is unbelievable.

I'm going to call the vets this week and discuss neutering, eventually we want to get him a little friend (male) to play with but we need to get on top of him first.

My advice,as usual

1 Start again. Train basic commands in the house.
2 Learn to say NO and mean it.
3 Introduce, say, two 10 minute training periods when out on your walk. Inbetween times just carry on as normal.Then gradually increase the training periods.
4 Leave all treats at home. Praise is sufficient.
5 Only neuter the dog as a last resort. As has been said this might reduce the problem but it will not get rid of it.

6 As you rightly said don't get a pal. It will make matters 1000 times worse.

I am not an advocate of the passive method of training unless you are dealing with an extremely gifted dog/person. From what I've seen it just does not work.(And I've seen a few). Equally thrashing a dog is just pure ignorance.
Just be firm and consistant. Others can help but at the end of the day YOU have to do it.

Hi, thanks for the advice, to be honest i think i do need to go back to basics, i need to put in more ground work with him and really drill in what i'm trying to do. As i've said, i won't be introducing another dog until i've got this little guy sorted out.

[bexVN]

ChrisRS said:

bexVN said:

Why only neuter as a last resort, sometimes that too late.

Bex, i've been reading up on neutering this evening and i'm going to call the vet in the morning to discuss it, a lot of the informations suggests having it done before the dogs 12 months old, is there any reason for this.

Guidelines regularly change, there are reports out suggesting doing it too early can affect growth plate growth in large breeds however main reason for doing early would be behavioural, hyper sexed, some types of aggression, health (if testicles undescended), running off every time a bh in heat! If left too long with these behaviours neutering is less likely to have an impact.

Personally whilst I believe neutering is the right step I do not advise that males need to be done very early, if they are not showing signs relating to being entire (unless it's the owners request) esp for larger breeds as males may not look as masculine if done very young.

However from health reasons I do believe they should be done once full grown (6 months-2yrs depending on breed i.e. jack russell - mastiff) whippet 12 months. Older dogs prone to prostate abscesses/ cancers, testicular cancers, anal adenomas, urinary problems, these in my opinion outweigh the advantages to keeping entire. The disadvantage is potential weight gain, however as I mentioned earlier careful control of calorie intake will avoid this. Some breeds do get coat changes. My whippet is 7yrs old he was neutered at 11 months, he has been a stable 14.5-15kg since he was fully grown.

[tenex]

bexVN said:

Why only neuter as a last resort, sometimes that too late.

Purely from the training side of it, neutering as a "cure all" is a complete misconception. The dog loses a certain spark, sometimes to it's detriment.

As to the health benefits,you are clearly far more qualified to speak on the subject. I also understand in some cases it has to be done for practical reasons but training isn't one of them.

Edited by tenex on Monday 15th November 04:57

[bexVN]

tenex said:

bexVN said:

Why only neuter as a last resort, sometimes that too late.

Purely from the training side of it, neutering as a "cure all" is a complete misconception. The dog loses a certain spark, sometimes to it's detriment.

As to the health benefits,you are clearly far more qualified to speak on the subject. I also understand in some cases it has to be done for practical reasons but training isn't one of them.

Edited by tenex on Monday 15th November 04:57

That's very true it certainly isn't a cure all and I would never advocate that but there is also a misconception re: dogs losing their spark after neutering, it doesn't have to be, though I agree may cause issue with certain working dogs such as police dogs. They lose their spark more due to the owners letting dogs become lazy, unfit and gaining weight (which I admit can be a problem if not addressed immediately after neutering)

Not all owners can be relied on to train their dogs efficiently enough to e.g. stop their dogs running after a bh on heat, being bolshy with other males (those hormones can run very high!), it doesn't mean they are terrible owners but neutering is a responsible step towards helping them with these behaviours.

It's probably not a topic we are not going to agree on entirely (oops excuse the pun)! I do not feel neutering ALL males at 6 months is the right approach but unfortunately often advised due to poor ownership allowing bad behaviour related to being entire and it is easier for vets to try and prevent a problem than try and deal with one once it has occurred. However I do not believe it is wrong to do in a matured male and it does make training of certain issues easier.

[Myc]

My dog Gus had a tendency to get very over excited when out walking him.

I have found that a herbal supplement from CSJ called Calm Down mixed in with his food has helped to take the edge of a little so might be worth a try.

http://www.csjk9.com/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?id...

[Mrs Grumpy]

tenex said:

My advice,as usual

1 Start again. Train basic commands in the house.
2 Learn to say NO and mean it.
3 Introduce, say, two 10 minute training periods when out on your walk. Inbetween times just carry on as normal.Then gradually increase the training periods.
4 Leave all treats at home. Praise is sufficient.
5 Only neuter the dog as a last resort. As has been said this might reduce the problem but it will not get rid of it.

6 As you rightly said don't get a pal. It will make matters 1000 times worse.

I am not an advocate of the passive method of training unless you are dealing with an extremely gifted dog/person. From what I've seen it just does not work.(And I've seen a few). Equally thrashing a dog is just pure ignorance.
Just be firm and consistant. Others can help but at the end of the day YOU have to do it.

A lot of this is very,very old fashioned and has been disproved by science. I can give you all the references if you want them?

1. Yes. Start training where there are no distractions and then gradually build up the distractions in order to generalise the training.
2. Saying 'no' means bugger all to the dog, except that he might start to think it's his name. What do you want him to do instead? Much better to ignore the unwanted which will then extinguish the unwanted behaviour as he will not be reinforced for it (saying 'no' is reinforcing the behaviour as you will be giving him the attention he is seeking, no matter that it is negative). Get him to do an appropriate behaviour instead. If you keep telling him 'no' then he is likely to try all kinds of other behaviour, be likely to get it wrong and so shut down as he just can't get it right. Show him what you want him to do instead and reinforce it.
3. I tend to separate training from walks for the purpose of exercise. However you slice it, consistency is the key or your dog will get confused. For instance I might do an exerise walk on a harness and training lead in order to manage any pulling. To teach loose lead walking I would do this on a separate walk and on a flat collar. No confusion.
4. Dogs are motivated by various things. Positive reinforcement can take the form of praise, treats or toys. You need to find the motivator for your dog. If praise isn't enough, especially in the face of major distractions, then you need to up the value so that YOU are more interesting than everything else around.

A continual reinforcement schedule is used during the initial stages of learning to create a strong association between the behaviour and the response, ie the dog is rewarded every single time the required behaviour is presented. However, continual reinforcement should be phased out once the required behaviour is reliable on cue or the reinforcement becomes part of the cue and the dog will not perform without it.

After that, the most powerful reinforcement schedule is variable ratio (reinforced after a number of random correct responses) and variable quality (sometimes roast chicken, sometimes kibble, sometimes a 'good boy' etc). The unpredictability of the reinforcers are very powerful. The fact that your dog might get reinforced and that it might be something he finds irresistible is enough for him to keep performing the required behaviours. I have heard of someone who sometimes gives her dogs a whole chicken as a reward for recalling. The fact that the dog might get a whole chicken is enough for him to come back every time.

If the dog does not actually find the reinforcer to be reinforcing, then whatever reinforcement schedule you use will not get results.

5. I don't understand why anyone would want to keep a dog entire? Yes, there can sometimes be a reason, behaviourally, but mostly it has health and behavioural benefits. The dog's character does not change and it can make them much easier to live with. No chance of fathering yet more unwanted litters and no build up of sexual frustration.

6. Sometimes a well-behaved 2nd dog can help, but too much of a risk, I agree. You could end up with two equally badly behaved dogs.

There is no 'passive' method of training that I am aware of? Do you mean positive reinforcement? Positive does not mean permissive...

[Wildsea]

As said if he is a collie x they require alot of mental exercise.

I currently have 2 collies, who were taught at a young age that they calm down when told.
To do this I just told them to settle and put them in a cage when they were getting over the top. Worked a treat they can go from play fighting and throwing toys at us to play to curled up within a couple of seconds.

I have a puppy coming up for a year, and find that 30 mins of training and play rewarding tires him out more than a 30 minute run. Try teaching him the basics such as sit, down, come etc inside and then build in some "tricks" like shake paws, roll over and bow.

Alot of people think collies just need physical exercise, I have always given mine mental exercise. I a not saying don't exercise him, but just mix physical and mental exercise.
As said try and find a decent training club. After you have a solid recall on walks you can always try and find a decent agility club. Agility is fantastic exercise for dogs, as it both physical and mental. My dogs have all loved their agility, it is a great sport

Another good tip is to find a toy he loves and take it out on walks, if he decides to run off, grab it out of a pocket and call him whilst waving it around and have a good game when he comes back. Even if it takes him ages to come back still go mad with the toy and praise him like mad, even if it is through gritted teeth

Some sites which may be of use:
http://www.obedienceuk.com/viewprofile.asp
http://agilitynet.co.uk/clutch/clubs.htm