Dog shows signs of aggression with kids :(
Discussion
Hi,
We're having some problems with our 3.5 year old intact female Golden Retriever. She is a working breed but is a family pet. She is well exercised (runs and walks) but does no "work". We have had her since she was a puppy, her sister is owned by a parent at the school (not intact) and the breeder is in a local village. We haven't contacted the breeder for any advice yet. To declare from the outset of this post I am thinking about having her neutered to help solve the issue.
First, to set the scene and her good points, she is a lovely, loving dog. Submissive with other dogs, generally doesn't bark, good recall out and about: always comes back to go on lead when she sees people or dogs out on walk (didn't when she was younger but she is good post 2 years old). At home she lives with my kids (9 & 11) and 2 cats that were added to the household 18 months ago. She is gentle with them and apart from one incident with my youngest when she was 9 months old, she is fine with my kids, protective of them, the only time she will bark is to protect kids i.e. strange person on the drive and kids in living room and me upstairs or something.
Two other general areas of bad behaviour:
- She is overly exciteable when people come over to the house, jumps up and runs around (zoomies) for a few moments. We have "trained" her somewhat in this area but she needs more work. She will get down when instructed "down" and will calm down if I kneel down and comfort here i.e. give her fuss. Once she is out of this phase she is calm and settled, lays down on the floor etc.
- Dinner times, somewhat solved over the last couple of months, previously she would be at the table. Now we have trained her to wait in her bed which she is doing 90% of the time. She picked up this elment of training pretty quickly, she does listen and act.
The kids bit:
There have been various incidents I'll list below and I am not confident with her around children. I ask children to leave her alone generally but they all have dogs themselves and can't help themselves. I command my dog to come away from kids i.e. come to me, which she does, I always use the command "gentle" when they are around as that is how we got her friendly with the cats and when feeding her a treat and she understands and behaves gently.
Incidents
1. When she was 9 months old she was on the sofa with my youngest, who was eating an apple. My wife was in the room and we do not know what happened but my yougest had a split lip either from her paw or teeth. The dog was no longer allowed on the sofa after that point. My youngest went to A&E to for gluing.
2. A younger brother of one of the girls friends came over on pick up, he loves dogs and my dog was enjoying the attention. She rolled over and was having a tummy rub. My dog then switched and showed teeth and snapped in his direction (no contact). I was watching the incident and there were no signs and he didn't rub in any area you'd not expect.
3. A friend with a small child (toddler) came over. Dog was fine and gentle all day. I was sitting down in the garden, dog next to me when the little boy walked past and she snapped in his direction. No contact. And immediately back to normal.
4. She has nipped the hand of child who was eating, food on floor, dog went to eat, child went to either stroke or pull dog (unclear). No blood.
5. The dog will lick plates from the dishwasher. A child stroked her back, dog immediately reacted and showed teeth and snapped in their direction. No contact. If it were me touching her or moving her out the way the dog accepts and is normal to me.
6. We had some children on a sleepover. For some reason the dog didn't like one of the girls, dog was with me, girl touched her back, dog showed teeth to me (but not at me if that makes sense). GIrl didn't see, I advised leave the dog alone which she did. Unfortunately the following morning I had to take one of my other children to Hockey and when the kids were tidying up bedding with my wife the dog snapped and growled in her direction (no contact) and seemingly no prompt. My wife said the girl had stroked the dog on the head previously in the other room and the dog was fine.
I had thought it was something to do with me, dog is protecting or being jealous of me giving attention to other children but the last incident above I wasn't even around. Nor was I present on the first either. Both my wife and I have similar levels of "being the master" and she has never shown aggression to us. My wife is more lax on keeping an eye on the dog, usually becuase she is busy with kids etc.
Following the last incident my wife felt we needed to get rid of the dog, and I see her point. However deep down she does not want to get rid of her and neither do I.
What should we look to do here. It is major problem as the kids are of an age where there is a lot of mixing at homes. The house is open plan. We have had some success recently with making her stay in her bed when kids are around but she doesn't stay there for hours. I mentioned at the beginning exploring neutering as a means to calm her, her sister shows no signs of aggression although is still quite energetic. Sadly I will have to let her go if the aggression continues.
We're having some problems with our 3.5 year old intact female Golden Retriever. She is a working breed but is a family pet. She is well exercised (runs and walks) but does no "work". We have had her since she was a puppy, her sister is owned by a parent at the school (not intact) and the breeder is in a local village. We haven't contacted the breeder for any advice yet. To declare from the outset of this post I am thinking about having her neutered to help solve the issue.
First, to set the scene and her good points, she is a lovely, loving dog. Submissive with other dogs, generally doesn't bark, good recall out and about: always comes back to go on lead when she sees people or dogs out on walk (didn't when she was younger but she is good post 2 years old). At home she lives with my kids (9 & 11) and 2 cats that were added to the household 18 months ago. She is gentle with them and apart from one incident with my youngest when she was 9 months old, she is fine with my kids, protective of them, the only time she will bark is to protect kids i.e. strange person on the drive and kids in living room and me upstairs or something.
Two other general areas of bad behaviour:
- She is overly exciteable when people come over to the house, jumps up and runs around (zoomies) for a few moments. We have "trained" her somewhat in this area but she needs more work. She will get down when instructed "down" and will calm down if I kneel down and comfort here i.e. give her fuss. Once she is out of this phase she is calm and settled, lays down on the floor etc.
- Dinner times, somewhat solved over the last couple of months, previously she would be at the table. Now we have trained her to wait in her bed which she is doing 90% of the time. She picked up this elment of training pretty quickly, she does listen and act.
The kids bit:
There have been various incidents I'll list below and I am not confident with her around children. I ask children to leave her alone generally but they all have dogs themselves and can't help themselves. I command my dog to come away from kids i.e. come to me, which she does, I always use the command "gentle" when they are around as that is how we got her friendly with the cats and when feeding her a treat and she understands and behaves gently.
Incidents
1. When she was 9 months old she was on the sofa with my youngest, who was eating an apple. My wife was in the room and we do not know what happened but my yougest had a split lip either from her paw or teeth. The dog was no longer allowed on the sofa after that point. My youngest went to A&E to for gluing.
2. A younger brother of one of the girls friends came over on pick up, he loves dogs and my dog was enjoying the attention. She rolled over and was having a tummy rub. My dog then switched and showed teeth and snapped in his direction (no contact). I was watching the incident and there were no signs and he didn't rub in any area you'd not expect.
3. A friend with a small child (toddler) came over. Dog was fine and gentle all day. I was sitting down in the garden, dog next to me when the little boy walked past and she snapped in his direction. No contact. And immediately back to normal.
4. She has nipped the hand of child who was eating, food on floor, dog went to eat, child went to either stroke or pull dog (unclear). No blood.
5. The dog will lick plates from the dishwasher. A child stroked her back, dog immediately reacted and showed teeth and snapped in their direction. No contact. If it were me touching her or moving her out the way the dog accepts and is normal to me.
6. We had some children on a sleepover. For some reason the dog didn't like one of the girls, dog was with me, girl touched her back, dog showed teeth to me (but not at me if that makes sense). GIrl didn't see, I advised leave the dog alone which she did. Unfortunately the following morning I had to take one of my other children to Hockey and when the kids were tidying up bedding with my wife the dog snapped and growled in her direction (no contact) and seemingly no prompt. My wife said the girl had stroked the dog on the head previously in the other room and the dog was fine.
I had thought it was something to do with me, dog is protecting or being jealous of me giving attention to other children but the last incident above I wasn't even around. Nor was I present on the first either. Both my wife and I have similar levels of "being the master" and she has never shown aggression to us. My wife is more lax on keeping an eye on the dog, usually becuase she is busy with kids etc.
Following the last incident my wife felt we needed to get rid of the dog, and I see her point. However deep down she does not want to get rid of her and neither do I.
What should we look to do here. It is major problem as the kids are of an age where there is a lot of mixing at homes. The house is open plan. We have had some success recently with making her stay in her bed when kids are around but she doesn't stay there for hours. I mentioned at the beginning exploring neutering as a means to calm her, her sister shows no signs of aggression although is still quite energetic. Sadly I will have to let her go if the aggression continues.
If she isn't reacting to adults then I suspect a child has done something to upset her (not necessarily intentionally) that you or wife haven't seen so she's learnt that children can't be trusted.
Some of it can be resource guarding. If they have a chew, a toy or food and think a child is going to take it they can react. That's a bit more predictable but an unreliable response to play/petting is difficult. Kids are difficult to train and they tend to have a 'one size fits all' response to all dogs whether it be ignoring, fear or enthusiasm. My daughter used to drive me nuts repeatedly getting on all fours and going face to face to one of my dogs when he was having quiet time with a chew. He clearly thought she was coming for it and would bare teeth and let out a low growl. We managed to train her out of it without any issues arising but she was clearly provoking him.
I think this is one where you need to get a locally recommended dog behaviourist to have 'eyes on' and exhaust this possibility before moving on.
I don't think neutering will make any difference but probably sensible if you're not going to breed from her
Some of it can be resource guarding. If they have a chew, a toy or food and think a child is going to take it they can react. That's a bit more predictable but an unreliable response to play/petting is difficult. Kids are difficult to train and they tend to have a 'one size fits all' response to all dogs whether it be ignoring, fear or enthusiasm. My daughter used to drive me nuts repeatedly getting on all fours and going face to face to one of my dogs when he was having quiet time with a chew. He clearly thought she was coming for it and would bare teeth and let out a low growl. We managed to train her out of it without any issues arising but she was clearly provoking him.
I think this is one where you need to get a locally recommended dog behaviourist to have 'eyes on' and exhaust this possibility before moving on.
I don't think neutering will make any difference but probably sensible if you're not going to breed from her
Edited by oddman on Monday 11th November 13:39
I would neuter as it can help somewhat with females. Being food reactive is a concern, when she is eating can you lift her food bowl without a reaction? Can you pet her whilst she eats? I would say a child has inadvertently hurt or upset her and this is the result. Definitely work with a well recommended behaviourist and see how you go. Short term if you have people over that are a concern then use a crate or have her in a different room. Some people would use a soft muzzle when necessary for now as well, but that can be contentious.
The other thing is to have her thoroughly checked over at the vets. Some problems aren’t always apparent, I had one with a hernia that was well disguised but was showing aggression at times.
The other thing is to have her thoroughly checked over at the vets. Some problems aren’t always apparent, I had one with a hernia that was well disguised but was showing aggression at times.
Thank you both. Food for thought.
Re food - yes I can do anything with her and her bowl, I could take it away, stroke here etc. She hasn't shown any aggression towards me or my wife. If the cat gets near her bowl she will growl though. The kids feed her too and she's fine with them - I guess you don't bite the hand that feeds you!
My eldest often kisses her head which i am constantly telling her not to do and the dog puts up with it.
I like the thinking that a child has perhaps upset her in the past and we havent realised. At least that would be driver for otherwise out of character behaviour.
We will ask the vet to check her out, she has been fairly recently though for a european travel certificate and was checked.
I'll also seek a behavourist. Is it worth chatting to the breeder? I am on fairly good terms i.e. when I am out walking the dog they always stop in the car for a chat. The breeder just bred her dog rather than a career breeder and is an experienced handler of working retrievers, she has 4 of them.
We were planning on breeding her, mainly to keep one ourselves, but given she'll be 4 on her next season and my wife is starting a new job I don't think we've got the capacity in our lives to deal with it so will consider neutering as a means to calm her, though aside from zoomies when people come over she is calm natured and spends most of her time asleep when no one is around.
Re food - yes I can do anything with her and her bowl, I could take it away, stroke here etc. She hasn't shown any aggression towards me or my wife. If the cat gets near her bowl she will growl though. The kids feed her too and she's fine with them - I guess you don't bite the hand that feeds you!
My eldest often kisses her head which i am constantly telling her not to do and the dog puts up with it.
I like the thinking that a child has perhaps upset her in the past and we havent realised. At least that would be driver for otherwise out of character behaviour.
We will ask the vet to check her out, she has been fairly recently though for a european travel certificate and was checked.
I'll also seek a behavourist. Is it worth chatting to the breeder? I am on fairly good terms i.e. when I am out walking the dog they always stop in the car for a chat. The breeder just bred her dog rather than a career breeder and is an experienced handler of working retrievers, she has 4 of them.
We were planning on breeding her, mainly to keep one ourselves, but given she'll be 4 on her next season and my wife is starting a new job I don't think we've got the capacity in our lives to deal with it so will consider neutering as a means to calm her, though aside from zoomies when people come over she is calm natured and spends most of her time asleep when no one is around.
Edited by VeeReihenmotor6 on Monday 11th November 16:54
First incident threw alarm bells.
I suspect the dog isn't submissive enough in the pack, you may be able to consult someone to help with this.
It does sound like you have a healthy active family setting which might had led them think there is very little on offer for them.
We had our dog (pug/frenchie) with my son until he was 2, I'm thinking once the food was allowed on his own eventually things like the first incident may had started some behavioural issues but in general he was submissive enough in a lot of situations and understand his place in the pack.
I suspect the dog isn't submissive enough in the pack, you may be able to consult someone to help with this.
It does sound like you have a healthy active family setting which might had led them think there is very little on offer for them.
We had our dog (pug/frenchie) with my son until he was 2, I'm thinking once the food was allowed on his own eventually things like the first incident may had started some behavioural issues but in general he was submissive enough in a lot of situations and understand his place in the pack.
In fairness a rescue likely wont take the dog with a bite history. And if they do, any bite in foster without a good reason would result in them failing assessment and the inevitable outcome. It seems just awful to do but how could you place a bite risk dog with people? Plus our rescue insurance is very specific within how we assess the animals and what is allowed and what isn’t
Tbh I’d never trust that dog around children ever!
I have the breed everyone loves to hate, he is pound for pound the greatest dog Ive ever owned in his own right, I can take the food out of is mouth, he throws his toys at me to share and play, he greets everyone with a wagging tale and a tongue down the throat if you don’t shut your mouth fast enough.
When relaxing he spends most of his time on his back getting the belly rubbed, he is a male of three yeats old and fully intact, I can touch any part of him inc his nuts which I regularly check and it never fizzles him.
He is so dog aggressive I can’t take him anywhere really in public l, luckily I live in the country and have a lump of land.
He is true to breed character in every respect although I was hoping he would be more tolerant of dogs :-(
I trust him implicitly, you really do get to know your dog , if he ever showed any human aggression I’d put him down, it would absolutely break my heart but I couldn’t risk what could happen.
Aggression towards kids is even worse tbh, just being honest, really sorry to hear your issues.
I have the breed everyone loves to hate, he is pound for pound the greatest dog Ive ever owned in his own right, I can take the food out of is mouth, he throws his toys at me to share and play, he greets everyone with a wagging tale and a tongue down the throat if you don’t shut your mouth fast enough.
When relaxing he spends most of his time on his back getting the belly rubbed, he is a male of three yeats old and fully intact, I can touch any part of him inc his nuts which I regularly check and it never fizzles him.
He is so dog aggressive I can’t take him anywhere really in public l, luckily I live in the country and have a lump of land.
He is true to breed character in every respect although I was hoping he would be more tolerant of dogs :-(
I trust him implicitly, you really do get to know your dog , if he ever showed any human aggression I’d put him down, it would absolutely break my heart but I couldn’t risk what could happen.
Aggression towards kids is even worse tbh, just being honest, really sorry to hear your issues.
Edited by Youforreal. on Monday 11th November 22:01
ChocolateFrog said:
Personally that dog wouldn't be in the house for a day longer.
If my dog showed even the slightest aggression towards my children or any other without an EXTREMELY good reason then that would be it.
Insane thing to take a risk over. I've seen what happens when dogs attack.
THIS!!!If my dog showed even the slightest aggression towards my children or any other without an EXTREMELY good reason then that would be it.
Insane thing to take a risk over. I've seen what happens when dogs attack.
Incredibly lackadaisical attitude from the OP - quite shocking to read to be honest. Other people’s children unwittingly exposed also….
No words.
Sounds like almost all of these incidents involved children who aren't your own and a lack of supervision. We have never once left our dogs alone with a child with one of us always being there or a door separating the kids and dogs. Sounds impossible I know but with a baby gate and simply getting the dog to come with you to grab a cup of coffee little changes can make all the difference. This is for the very reason that if something happens we wouldn't know the trigger, we have devil dogs the media would call them and somehow in 12 years all children and dogs have survived without incident.
Maybe cut down on so many children who don't live with the dog being in the dogs space. Dogs don't tend to be huge fans of change and love routine.
Well done for trying to sort the situation, the people saying to re-home should never be allowed to own a dog. As a dog owner you also have a responsibility to the dog as op is well aware it would seem.
Best of luck.
Maybe cut down on so many children who don't live with the dog being in the dogs space. Dogs don't tend to be huge fans of change and love routine.
Well done for trying to sort the situation, the people saying to re-home should never be allowed to own a dog. As a dog owner you also have a responsibility to the dog as op is well aware it would seem.
Best of luck.
ChocolateFrog said:
Personally that dog wouldn't be in the house for a day longer.
If my dog showed even the slightest aggression towards my children or any other without an EXTREMELY good reason then that would be it.
Insane thing to take a risk over. I've seen what happens when dogs attack.
Absolutely this.If my dog showed even the slightest aggression towards my children or any other without an EXTREMELY good reason then that would be it.
Insane thing to take a risk over. I've seen what happens when dogs attack.
I love my dog more than I ever thought possible, but if it caused one of my kids to need hospital treatment it would leave the house for good the same day. I'd be utterly heartbroken but I wouldn't hesitate.
Chris Peacock said:
ChocolateFrog said:
Personally that dog wouldn't be in the house for a day longer.
If my dog showed even the slightest aggression towards my children or any other without an EXTREMELY good reason then that would be it.
Insane thing to take a risk over. I've seen what happens when dogs attack.
Absolutely this.If my dog showed even the slightest aggression towards my children or any other without an EXTREMELY good reason then that would be it.
Insane thing to take a risk over. I've seen what happens when dogs attack.
I love my dog more than I ever thought possible, but if it caused one of my kids to need hospital treatment it would leave the house for good the same day. I'd be utterly heartbroken but I wouldn't hesitate.
A dog can be very volatile while eating. If you touch it in the wrong place or the wrong way it can bite your hand off especially if it is protective of its food.
Unsupervised young children can be irritating a dog with the way they touch it. An adult would see this straight away but the child does not realise this and there is no adult to tell the child or pull the child away. The OP should ensure that there is always supervision and not leave their dog unattended with a child.
The child could have slow or poor hand coordination and intended to stroke their head but the dog movement meant they ended up poking the dog on the ear, nose or eye. The dog may snap back with a growl or a bite/attack.
OP, you have noted the warning signs so make a change before a serious incident happens.
Unsupervised young children can be irritating a dog with the way they touch it. An adult would see this straight away but the child does not realise this and there is no adult to tell the child or pull the child away. The OP should ensure that there is always supervision and not leave their dog unattended with a child.
The child could have slow or poor hand coordination and intended to stroke their head but the dog movement meant they ended up poking the dog on the ear, nose or eye. The dog may snap back with a growl or a bite/attack.
OP, you have noted the warning signs so make a change before a serious incident happens.
Sounds like a training or dog management issue, leaving a child to eat in front of a dog is asking for trouble, if the op had respected the dogs tolerance levels from the start the problem may never of arisen, poor behaviour is normally reflected on how the owner has trained the dog and set boundaries from the offset.
VeeReihenmotor6 said:
My eldest often kisses her head which i am constantly telling her not to do and the dog puts up with it.
That's exactly what my daughter tried to do 
He'd growl and she'd theatrically withdraw say 'Oooooh rude'VeeReihenmotor6 said:
Is it worth chatting to the breeder? I am on fairly good terms i.e. when I am out walking the dog they always stop in the car for a chat. The breeder just bred her dog rather than a career breeder and is an experienced handler of working retrievers, she has 4 of them.
If she's a breeder and runs several gundogs, it's likely they are kenneled so they may not have any of the requirements for a house pet. I think the risk of offending her might outweigh any useful information you glean.VeeReihenmotor6 said:
We were planning on breeding her, mainly to keep one ourselves, but given she'll be 4 on her next season and my wife is starting a new job I don't think we've got the capacity in our lives to deal with it so will consider neutering as a means to calm her, though aside from zoomies when people come over she is calm natured and spends most of her time asleep when no one is around.
If it were me, I wouldn't breed from her even though the problem is unlikely to be heritable. It's just irresponsible to breed from a dog with a fault. The only idea I have in my mind when considering breeding is 'Will my dog contribute or detract from the quality of his line/breed?' I've had lots of offers for my cocker but he barks when hunting and whines on peg so, as long as he doesn't get away on a b
h in season, he'll remain childless.Vet is a very good call. I think you have to be transparent with your acquaintances that the dog is proving to be an unpredictable problem with children and you are seeking help. Then limit visitors until the issue is resolved one way or the other. She'd probably make a great pet for an older person or couple.
leef44 said:
OP, you have noted the warning signs so make a change before a serious incident happens.
This bit in particular.Your own children (and other kids) are more important than a dog. If one of mine ever did that, it’s out, I would never trust it again.
I could *almost* forgive incident one due to puppy enthusiasm and clumsiness, but as you say,you weren’t there, so you don’t know what actually happened (e.g. bared teeth).
The change is down to you, but a change definitely needs to happen.
Edited by ChevronB19 on Tuesday 12th November 12:01
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