Any Canine Vets about? Very Stiff and Lethargic Labrador!
Discussion
Will try and keep this is brief as possible... But may struggle!
We've been in Mallorca for the last 9 days while 'Nana' came to our house to stay with Bella the black lab (10yrs old on 6th Sep).
On Wednesday Bella was apparently being quite lethargic and very 'stiff' i.e. difficulty walking. Bella has a sort of autoimmune arthritis that sometimes flares up and is sorted quickly with prednisone steroids - when that happens; she stiffens up all over and stays completely still, on all 4s, like a statue, lip smacking, etc.
She was taken to the vet on Thursday who gave her a poke and a prod, took some blood to do a CRP inflammation test (as we all assumed it would be 'the usual') and gave some paracetamol while they waited for results. She had a very slightly elevated temperature (but nothing too concerning). No specific joint or abdomen pain was identified.
CRP results came back as 7.27, which is low for her and completely normal (apparently anything <10 is) for a dog and when they went back on Friday for results, her temp was back to normal and she was more 'mobile'.
I think she stiffened up again on Saturday, after a walk, and Nana slept downstairs with her as she couldn't attempt stairs, etc. but she was "like a new dog" this morning and went for a light walk (apparently), climbed the stairs and jumped up on the bed. But when we got home this afternoon, she struggled getting up to see us and is very 'stiff', no obvious limp/lameness from a single leg, just generally finding it hard to walk, tail tucked under and very lethargic, with a super quiet demeanor.
She has been eating (declined one meal in ~18 while we were away), drinking and going to the toilet normally, by all accounts. No vomiting or diarrhea. We've seen her eat (full meal) and drink (not a huge amount) this evening (no potty, so far) so we're not immediately concerned there is an imminent mega-problem but I've not seen her exactly like this and whenever it has been her autoimmune 'statuing', it has shown up very clearly in her CRP numbers, which have been very high.
I'd swear blind the CRP result is 'wrong' (is that even possible?) as the symptoms seem far too similar... but then she does seem awfully lethargic, which we haven't previously noticed. She's lip smacking a bit and is definitely very 'quiet', sleeping a lot and generally not trying to move round much.
At a bit of a loss what to do next. Obviously we'll monitor and whip her to emergency care if she declines but it's tough getting a regular vet appointment as our 'chain' is very short staffed so probably no vet until Tuesday now. I'll take her back to them ASAP, regardless, for a more thorough blood panel (could it be an organ/internal thing?) and another CRP test but was wondering if anyone had any ideas? Obviously I don't expect a diagnosis but it might be good to help me ask the right questions of the vet.
I know she's old and we all get stiff/arthritic as we get older but this is a dog who could still run a squirrel down a couple of weeks back! She is very bonded/sensitive and us being away could have triggered her immune issues... but then the CRP says no to that. Ugh. I'm now worried it's something more internal but then would she eat/drink/potty ok?
Many thanks in advance!
We've been in Mallorca for the last 9 days while 'Nana' came to our house to stay with Bella the black lab (10yrs old on 6th Sep).
On Wednesday Bella was apparently being quite lethargic and very 'stiff' i.e. difficulty walking. Bella has a sort of autoimmune arthritis that sometimes flares up and is sorted quickly with prednisone steroids - when that happens; she stiffens up all over and stays completely still, on all 4s, like a statue, lip smacking, etc.
She was taken to the vet on Thursday who gave her a poke and a prod, took some blood to do a CRP inflammation test (as we all assumed it would be 'the usual') and gave some paracetamol while they waited for results. She had a very slightly elevated temperature (but nothing too concerning). No specific joint or abdomen pain was identified.
CRP results came back as 7.27, which is low for her and completely normal (apparently anything <10 is) for a dog and when they went back on Friday for results, her temp was back to normal and she was more 'mobile'.
I think she stiffened up again on Saturday, after a walk, and Nana slept downstairs with her as she couldn't attempt stairs, etc. but she was "like a new dog" this morning and went for a light walk (apparently), climbed the stairs and jumped up on the bed. But when we got home this afternoon, she struggled getting up to see us and is very 'stiff', no obvious limp/lameness from a single leg, just generally finding it hard to walk, tail tucked under and very lethargic, with a super quiet demeanor.
She has been eating (declined one meal in ~18 while we were away), drinking and going to the toilet normally, by all accounts. No vomiting or diarrhea. We've seen her eat (full meal) and drink (not a huge amount) this evening (no potty, so far) so we're not immediately concerned there is an imminent mega-problem but I've not seen her exactly like this and whenever it has been her autoimmune 'statuing', it has shown up very clearly in her CRP numbers, which have been very high.
I'd swear blind the CRP result is 'wrong' (is that even possible?) as the symptoms seem far too similar... but then she does seem awfully lethargic, which we haven't previously noticed. She's lip smacking a bit and is definitely very 'quiet', sleeping a lot and generally not trying to move round much.
At a bit of a loss what to do next. Obviously we'll monitor and whip her to emergency care if she declines but it's tough getting a regular vet appointment as our 'chain' is very short staffed so probably no vet until Tuesday now. I'll take her back to them ASAP, regardless, for a more thorough blood panel (could it be an organ/internal thing?) and another CRP test but was wondering if anyone had any ideas? Obviously I don't expect a diagnosis but it might be good to help me ask the right questions of the vet.
I know she's old and we all get stiff/arthritic as we get older but this is a dog who could still run a squirrel down a couple of weeks back! She is very bonded/sensitive and us being away could have triggered her immune issues... but then the CRP says no to that. Ugh. I'm now worried it's something more internal but then would she eat/drink/potty ok?
Many thanks in advance!
They don't look too bad, but potentially a little pale, it's hard to tell if you haven't looked at them before to judge her 'healthy' colour. I've had dogs with anaemia and internal bleeding before, so it's one of the first things I check if they're not well.
Does your vet have the option of a phone call for advice?
Trust your gut - if she seems off to you, get her checked out. Hopefully you'll be proved to be over-cautious, but you know your dog best.
Good luck and keep us updated.
Does your vet have the option of a phone call for advice?
Trust your gut - if she seems off to you, get her checked out. Hopefully you'll be proved to be over-cautious, but you know your dog best.
Good luck and keep us updated.
moorx said:
They don't look too bad, but potentially a little pale, it's hard to tell if you haven't looked at them before to judge her 'healthy' colour. I've had dogs with anaemia and internal bleeding before, so it's one of the first things I check if they're not well.
Does your vet have the option of a phone call for advice?
Trust your gut - if she seems off to you, get her checked out. Hopefully you'll be proved to be over-cautious, but you know your dog best.
Good luck and keep us updated.
Thanks Moorx - that pic is actually a bit washed out if you know the carpet is cream and her teeth don't look as white in person. In other words; her mouth seems a bit dry to me but her membranes do seem predominantly pink. She was checked on Thursday and Friday and seemed to make a miraculous recovery this morning, before taking a turn again this afternoon. No blood in stool (we checked because she was once bleeding internally with unbelievable gastroenteritis, which was a stay in hospital and feeding tube, etc) She hasn't been in any accidents or anything.Does your vet have the option of a phone call for advice?
Trust your gut - if she seems off to you, get her checked out. Hopefully you'll be proved to be over-cautious, but you know your dog best.
Good luck and keep us updated.
We did phone a different vet (the one we'd go to in a 24hr emergency) and they were happy to consult but wouldn't get bloods back for a few days, potentially, with the BH. They were not encouraging us to come in, strongly, they seemed to think monitoring was perfectly reasonable. However, I am losing a bit of confidence as she is very 'low' and lethergic. She is, however, a tough old dog, having been very ill (Ehrlichia from a tick in the US) as a pup, that stomach issue and when they took days trying to diagnose and treat the autoimmune.
moorx said:
How is Bella this morning?
Thanks for checking! Was typing this as you messaged 
We decided to give her some Meloxidyl before bed (~10pm) we had from when she cut her paw pad recently so she had some painkiller and anti-inflammatory. She took that mixed with pate, no problem, but didn't move from laying down behind the sofa.
She woke me up on the sofa at 4am with lip smacking but was on all 4s. Went to let her outside but she didn't go and turned round and very slowly/delicately went up the stairs and actually climbed onto the bed. Got in with her so the 3 of us stayed there until 9am this morning. She didn't move again all night so I thought we should get her up as she hadn't been to the toilet in almost 24hrs or taken a lot of water (none since early evening, unless it wasn't lip smacking that woke me but drinking).
She likes to toilet in the woods over the road as opposed to the garden these days so put her collar and harness on and gently took her out. Still very slow/stiff but also excited (tail gently wagging as opposed to curled under her) to go out (she always is) and as soon as we were there she urinated/marked, did a No.2 and took water from her bottle. She was happy/excited to be out but not moving well but much better than we had seen her in the ~18hrs we'd been home.
Patted with paper where she urinated and it's perhaps a bit yellow (not a surprise if she hasn't been guzzling water) but there were no signs of pain or blood or anything. The photo (like her gums last night) is a bit washed out and the urine is darker in person. No.2 looks normal as well. Apologies for pics but just in case anyone has any other views:
Urine:
No.2:
Taking water from Mrs9 (note tail is 'up', not tucked under):
We then came home and her mood was still 'lifted' and she hovered around the kitchen so gave her her usual breakfast, with her usual joint supplement and although I maybe only gave 80% of her usual quantity, she ate the whole lot in one go:
She's now sitting outside on the patio with a bowl of water next to her. Seems more alert than yesterday and is pretty normal other than still being very stiff, slow, etc. Am I wrong to think that what look like normal bladder/bowel movements and the eating/drinking suggest nothing particularly 'internal' i.e. no big organ problems?
It looks like 'all over' arthritis to me, which has come on suddenly... exactly like her autoimmune 'statuing'. But the CRP last week said not. It's never been a lagging indicator before i.e. whenever we have had these symptoms the CRP always come back immediately high. Without wishing to be pet Sherlock Holmes... The only thing that makes sense is the CRP result was 'wrong' or 'lagging'. There seems no immediate risk as far as I can tell but I don't want to start steroids without confirmation so I still think we need to re-do bloods ('full set') ASAP.
Frustratingly our regular vet would need to send her to a sort of group sister practice, not the same chain but same parent, in (bit of PH) Caterham, which is a bit of a journey. Obviously the time/money is not an issue but I'd just feel more comfortable if she had the consistency (and easy access to her notes, history, etc.) of seeing our usual vet... but that's tomorrow at best.
Just as I finished typing that, she got up and took some water from her bowl. She's up and down on her feet and far more alert than yesterday
Like I say, I'm not a vet, just a dog owner, but normal bladder/bowel movements would seem positive. As would the fact that she doesn't seem to have deteriorated and has perhaps perked up a bit if anything. Interest in food and water is also good.
She's obviously got something going on, though, which I would want checked out, so I would carry on monitoring and (providing she doesn't get worse) get her in with your usual vet ASAP.
Will keep everything crossed for you all.
She's obviously got something going on, though, which I would want checked out, so I would carry on monitoring and (providing she doesn't get worse) get her in with your usual vet ASAP.
Will keep everything crossed for you all.
Thanks Moorx - agreed with Mrs9 to take her for bloods today. So, off to Caterham we go, in a bit. Not because we're more worried/less confident (quite the opposite) but just to get what we (yet again) expect to be a high CRP, sooner rather than later, to get her on steroids and reduce her (assumed) discomfort. Or get a 2nd opinion on what else it could be, of course. My worry is that she always seems 'better' at the vet as she thinks she's on a walk/play so pushes herself to be as normal as possible and doesn't really present issues. They usually just say "well, she's 10...", etc. But you get her on pred and she's back to being a highly active rocket ship - a massive difference, which the vet never really sees. However, if they're not immediately worried, I won't be too worried. I'm not now, or a lot less so at least.
She's just had a big drink from her bowl and has been getting up and down, even just wandered in to get a 'baby' (cuddly toy pig) and took that back out with her. So, demeanor is much, much better and only 'signs' since getting up a couple of hours ago are the stiffness. No real lethargy, head up and alert, as opposed to flat out on her side like yesterday. No lip smacking, belly full, been potty, etc. If this stiffness/behaviour was 'usual', we wouldn't be batting an eye lid (because she is older and deserves to slow down) as I can always tell if she is 'scared' or in real pain and she isn't 'telling me' that this morning.
If it turns out to be nothing sinister... it'll be tough accepting my 'little girl' is getting old! Thanks for your concern!
She's just had a big drink from her bowl and has been getting up and down, even just wandered in to get a 'baby' (cuddly toy pig) and took that back out with her. So, demeanor is much, much better and only 'signs' since getting up a couple of hours ago are the stiffness. No real lethargy, head up and alert, as opposed to flat out on her side like yesterday. No lip smacking, belly full, been potty, etc. If this stiffness/behaviour was 'usual', we wouldn't be batting an eye lid (because she is older and deserves to slow down) as I can always tell if she is 'scared' or in real pain and she isn't 'telling me' that this morning.
If it turns out to be nothing sinister... it'll be tough accepting my 'little girl' is getting old! Thanks for your concern!
Thanks moorx and gary!
Spoke to her usual practice group again and then called Caterham and, to cut a long story short, they said not to bring her in as it doesn't sound like an emergency. Was on the phone for quite a while but they definitely sounded like they were a bit swamped with no vets in the regular practice and wanted to keep their decks clear for 'proper' emergencies.
She isn't eating her treat at the moment but she is definitely a lot brighter. She's the one labrador who does moderate her eating with reduced exercise and she only had breakfast ~3hrs ago, so it's not a big worry. They said if anything changes or she deteriorates significantly (e.g. starts vomiting/diarrhea) then of course bring her, else just take her to the usual vet tomorrow, who will be able to more quickly check any new results against historicals, etc.
I am certainly calmer. Not so much worried as 'sad' for her not being/feeling right but I am hopeful we will start getting some answers from tomorrow. Just a shame we're both back to work (Mrs9 is a teacher and kids aren't back this week, so she can be a bit more flexible) this week and then I am abroad for work the next week. Wouldn't be surprised if there is an element of separation anxiety triggering an autoimmune response, a bit like a human getting stressed and triggering ulcerative colitis or alike. We haven't been apart from her for 9 days in maybe 5yrs and more like 2 days in 3yrs and she is definitely getting more sensitive/scared (e.g. fireworks or people getting loud/excited in front of the sport on TV) as she gets older.
Will keep this updated!
Spoke to her usual practice group again and then called Caterham and, to cut a long story short, they said not to bring her in as it doesn't sound like an emergency. Was on the phone for quite a while but they definitely sounded like they were a bit swamped with no vets in the regular practice and wanted to keep their decks clear for 'proper' emergencies.
She isn't eating her treat at the moment but she is definitely a lot brighter. She's the one labrador who does moderate her eating with reduced exercise and she only had breakfast ~3hrs ago, so it's not a big worry. They said if anything changes or she deteriorates significantly (e.g. starts vomiting/diarrhea) then of course bring her, else just take her to the usual vet tomorrow, who will be able to more quickly check any new results against historicals, etc.
I am certainly calmer. Not so much worried as 'sad' for her not being/feeling right but I am hopeful we will start getting some answers from tomorrow. Just a shame we're both back to work (Mrs9 is a teacher and kids aren't back this week, so she can be a bit more flexible) this week and then I am abroad for work the next week. Wouldn't be surprised if there is an element of separation anxiety triggering an autoimmune response, a bit like a human getting stressed and triggering ulcerative colitis or alike. We haven't been apart from her for 9 days in maybe 5yrs and more like 2 days in 3yrs and she is definitely getting more sensitive/scared (e.g. fireworks or people getting loud/excited in front of the sport on TV) as she gets older.
Will keep this updated!
Apologies for not updating this yet but I wanted to see if [spolier: she's much better] her current upward trajectory holds.
Back to the vet on Tuesday, same one she saw with my Mum last week. Vet confirmed she now seemed a lot 'worse'.
Took bloods to check organ function, etc. in case it wasn't 'the usual', as the previous CRP had been fine at 7, and re-did that.
Long story short, organ function/standard blood tests all came back "fine" but the CRP was now... drum roll... 20! Almost tripled!
20 was the number I quoted to my Mum that I had expected to see last week... and got 7. Very strange but glad I stuck to my guns, wanting to re-do that and not chase anything else down a rabbit hole.
She's now back on the 'roids!
Bella needed 3 days off the Meloxicam NSAID to take the Pred steroids and thankfully we didn't give her any on Monday/Tuesday so that the CRP test wouldn't be masked, or just in case it could be, meaning she started the 'roids the same evening we got the results.
Within 12hrs of her first steroid dose last night she was more sprightly and even took her for a short walk this morning. I have come home after work today and she is even better, despite only having her 2nd dose a few minutes before, so they wouldn't have kicked in yet.
If Sunday was 0%, she's already back to 50% after £1 worth of pills (and £XXXs of blood tests, etc) and I anticipate will be 100% by the weekend! So, hopefully right as rain for her 10th birthday on Tuesday and me being away next week, in case that stresses her further.
Perhaps the lesson here is that we should have gambled on steroids at the first CRP test (we have before), based on the fact the symptoms were 'the usual', seeing as she spent almost a week pretty much sparko and probably in pain... But that's a tough call to make when we hadn't seen her ourselves and if we had been wrong, the steroids may have harmed her more and been incompatible with other treatments.
I was going to leave this until the weekend to be fully confident she is 'better' but since you asked; I thought I would share the (so far) good news! Maybe us being away did stress her out to the point that her autoimmune issues kicked in... Or it's a coincidence. It's not the first time it has come on after we have both been away from her and she's been with 'Nana' though. No more foreign holidays away for us!!
Back to the vet on Tuesday, same one she saw with my Mum last week. Vet confirmed she now seemed a lot 'worse'.
Took bloods to check organ function, etc. in case it wasn't 'the usual', as the previous CRP had been fine at 7, and re-did that.
Long story short, organ function/standard blood tests all came back "fine" but the CRP was now... drum roll... 20! Almost tripled!
20 was the number I quoted to my Mum that I had expected to see last week... and got 7. Very strange but glad I stuck to my guns, wanting to re-do that and not chase anything else down a rabbit hole.
She's now back on the 'roids!
Bella needed 3 days off the Meloxicam NSAID to take the Pred steroids and thankfully we didn't give her any on Monday/Tuesday so that the CRP test wouldn't be masked, or just in case it could be, meaning she started the 'roids the same evening we got the results.
Within 12hrs of her first steroid dose last night she was more sprightly and even took her for a short walk this morning. I have come home after work today and she is even better, despite only having her 2nd dose a few minutes before, so they wouldn't have kicked in yet.
If Sunday was 0%, she's already back to 50% after £1 worth of pills (and £XXXs of blood tests, etc) and I anticipate will be 100% by the weekend! So, hopefully right as rain for her 10th birthday on Tuesday and me being away next week, in case that stresses her further.
Perhaps the lesson here is that we should have gambled on steroids at the first CRP test (we have before), based on the fact the symptoms were 'the usual', seeing as she spent almost a week pretty much sparko and probably in pain... But that's a tough call to make when we hadn't seen her ourselves and if we had been wrong, the steroids may have harmed her more and been incompatible with other treatments.
I was going to leave this until the weekend to be fully confident she is 'better' but since you asked; I thought I would share the (so far) good news! Maybe us being away did stress her out to the point that her autoimmune issues kicked in... Or it's a coincidence. It's not the first time it has come on after we have both been away from her and she's been with 'Nana' though. No more foreign holidays away for us!!
Thanks for the update I've been a bit worried to ask after her!
Most dogs certainly don't like their routine being disrupted, so you being away may have affected/stressed her but who knows?
Just shows though, that you know your dog best. I get what you mean about the steroids, but you needed to be sure and I know (from having a dog who was on steroids on a number of occasions for an immune condition) that you can't just start and stop them willy-nilly.
I think you did all the right things under the circumstances and I will continue to send Bella positive thoughts for a continued recovery
I've been a bit worried to ask after her!Most dogs certainly don't like their routine being disrupted, so you being away may have affected/stressed her but who knows?
Just shows though, that you know your dog best. I get what you mean about the steroids, but you needed to be sure and I know (from having a dog who was on steroids on a number of occasions for an immune condition) that you can't just start and stop them willy-nilly.
I think you did all the right things under the circumstances and I will continue to send Bella positive thoughts for a continued recovery
Thevet said:
Steroids rarely harm in the short term and can be very beneficial due to their anti inflammatory action, which can help with all sorts of old fart issues
That's interesting. I only commented from the perspective of when Sam whippet had to go on them numerous times for his IMHA. Once started on them, he had to stay on them for some time and had to be 'weaned' off over an extended period.Progress has maybe stalled a little bit - she struggled coming down the stairs when I got home from work... But demeanor is now back to normal and, of course, she's like a hungry, hungry hippo now she's on the 'roids!
The vet usually takes weeks weening her off them! I'm just wondering if there is alternative for this as she seems to be on them more than she's off them, over a year, nowadays. Albeit the dose is relatively low at 15mg for a 30kg dog and dropping 2.5mg a week after the first couple or so... 7 week+ steroid course, in which case, each time.
And thank you for your well wishes! I hope you all have a great weekend! Hopefully she is well enough for a walker next week, while I am away!
The vet usually takes weeks weening her off them! I'm just wondering if there is alternative for this as she seems to be on them more than she's off them, over a year, nowadays. Albeit the dose is relatively low at 15mg for a 30kg dog and dropping 2.5mg a week after the first couple or so... 7 week+ steroid course, in which case, each time.
And thank you for your well wishes! I hope you all have a great weekend! Hopefully she is well enough for a walker next week, while I am away!
Edited by dom9 on Friday 2nd September 18:49
moorx said:
That's interesting. I only commented from the perspective of when Sam whippet had to go on them numerous times for his IMHA. Once started on them, he had to stay on them for some time and had to be 'weaned' off over an extended period.
Immune mediated haemolytic anaemia is something that will often require longterm steroid therapy, which usually does have side effects.
Anyway, at least this thread seems to be ending on a positive note.
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