gun dog training

[dillenger]

So, I had the chance to have a gun dog trainer take my little friend Vinnie, a working cocker under his wing and help us both get the most out of each other. Never going to use him for hunting its more about keeping him entertained and his little mind active, as well as seeing him do what comes naturally to him.

So, we rent a local farmers field complete with little wooded area, first lesson emergency stops my idea not the trainers, but I need him to stop dead if I see danger, so here comes the first problem Vinnie keeps close to me and the wife so how to get him to stop if he will not leave our side. Enter his tennis ball he will play fetch all day long.

He will sit, lie down, wait and fetch to either verbal or hand signals so I know he is smart, three or four attempts and apart from a little creeping on the first few attempts he was stopping dead and waiting for us to go to him. A little and often is what he told us do not overdo it keep it fun for him.

Then I got a look into how quick these dogs try to figure things out as we are walking back i launch his ball for him to fetch he takes off like a missile gets to his ball sits and waits…am I coming to you, or you are coming here look about him he would not budge until I shouted again to fetch his ball back.

I will still take lesson one as a win for us both I got my time with him he showed me a little bit of what is in store over the coming weeks months years.

Has anyone else been down this road how did it work out for you.

[chrisga]

Love our working cockers. They are like information sponges and want to learn and do. Our old one worked on the local shoot beating. Was also grade 7 at agility. Just wanted to please every second of every day. We now have a new one who at 5 and a half months is willing to learn anything and everything. Will be an agility dog primarily but may work as well in the winter (although he's a bit vocal at the moment). Photo just because:

Our old one




And the new one





Not related to each other but both seem to love a muddy puddle!

[dillenger]

chrisga said:

Love our working cockers. They are like information sponges and want to learn and do. Our old one worked on the local shoot beating. Was also grade 7 at agility. Just wanted to please every second of every day. We now have a new one who at 5 and a half months is willing to learn anything and everything. Will be an agility dog primarily but may work as well in the winter (although he's a bit vocal at the moment). Photo just because:

Our old one




And the new one





Not related to each other but both seem to love a muddy puddle!

like land sharks spot water must be in

[oddman]

Your dog will be a lot happier if you go down the route of gun dog training. Many spaniels you see are straining at the leash and would be off on the first scent if released - pretty frustrating for them. A well trained dog enjoys freedom which others don't get. Don't rule out working him - they absolutely love it.

Stick at it - there will be many frustrations and difficulties. An experienced dog man said to me 'make him love you and keep him close' - Essentially they are motivated by affection and praise and are much harder to control at distance so that makes sense.

They are learning machines and cockers learn rules quickly but constantly test to see if they can change them. If you've got sit/stop, recall and retrieve you're on the way to success. Heel and lead work is a challenge as it's not what they are bred for.

Training a dog was one of the most rewarding things I've ever done. My cocker was absolutely spot on before I took him shooting but his drive found another few gears once exposed to game!

[cslwannabe]

Really interested in this post. We have a male who is 2yo and a female 15months. Couldn’t be more different. Younger one has always been good at recall etc but older one gets very anxious and often won’t come out for a walk with me at all (he is my wife’s dog really). When I do take them both out they practically tear my arms out of the sockets, although they can both walk quite nicely solo, when they want! I hardly ever dare let the older one off the lead when I’m out on my own, his pb is 5.5hrs chasing pheasants in the field near where we live. That was a while ago but he managed 3.5hrs quite recently! He is highly intelligent but really headstrong - probably my fault for choosing his name - Enzo. Lexi is much more eager to please and when we are out walking she keeps coming back to check on us before going back to see what Enzo is up to. Have done a few parkruns with them but not had the confidence to try either of them running with me and them off the lead.

Very interested oddman in some of the points you mentioned.

chrisga, that photo of your ‘old dog’ as a puppy is the cutest thing ever…

Edited by cslwannabe on Sunday 10th July 22:00

Edited by cslwannabe on Sunday 10th July 22:00

Edited by cslwannabe on Sunday 10th July 22:03

[K77 CTR]

Look up hamsphire spaniel training on YouTube. Chris has a lot of videos on there regarding different techniques and very responsive to messages.

[Challo]

We did a basic introduction into Gun Dog Training and had mixed results. The Cockapoo couldn't give a toss, and only did a few of the tasks well. He is a lazy sod, very stubborn anyway and changes his mind constantly on what treats he likes, and just wants to chew the dummy instead of collecting them.

Our younger Springer X loved it, and was very good. He is always happy to please, great at recall and retrieving stuff.

While we had mixed results I would do it again, mainly because you pick up so many extra tips and tricks to help day to day. Plus there are little drills / games that both dogs liked to do so we can do them in the garden and on walks which makes it more engaging for them.

[dillenger]

after watching hampshire training, some of his videos it does amaze me what is possible, i am sure vinnie is more then good enough...me the jury is out

although sometimes i look at him and wonder


ill post updates after each lesson, roughly every two weeks gives us time to practise.

[K77 CTR]

dillenger said:

after watching hampshire training, some of his videos it does amaze me what is possible, i am sure vinnie is more then good enough...me the jury is out

although sometimes i look at him and wonder


ill post updates after each lesson, roughly every two weeks gives us time to practise.

Glad you found the videos helpful. Look forward to seeing how things go.

[oddman]

cslwannabe said:

We have a male who is 2yo and a female 15months. Couldn’t be more different. Younger one has always been good at recall etc but older one gets very anxious and often won’t come out for a walk with me at all (he is my wife’s dog really). When I do take them both out they practically tear my arms out of the sockets, although they can both walk quite nicely solo, when they want! I hardly ever dare let the older one off the lead when I’m out on my own, his pb is 5.5hrs chasing pheasants in the field near where we live. That was a while ago but he managed 3.5hrs quite recently! He is highly intelligent but really headstrong - probably my fault for choosing his name - Enzo. Lexi is much more eager to please and when we are out walking she keeps coming back to check on us before going back to see what Enzo is up to. Have done a few parkruns with them but not had the confidence to try either of them running with me and them off the lead.

Very interested oddman in some of the points you mentioned.

Sounds like two spaniels at either end of the spectrum of biddability/temperament. All spaniels will have their moments and they mature at varying rates but stop, recall (voice, hand and whistle commands) and retrieve should be pretty secure at six months; solid at a year (ie. reliable in all park, walk type /temptations situations) and solid in a field situation at two years. It's almost impossible to wind the clock back and start again. You can pause and reset for days or weeks but not months of lost time particularly with an older dog.

TBF unless you take professional advice and are prepared for some serious remedial work the older dog is a lost cause. Chasing pheasants is like crack for them and they'll do anything to get another taste of it.

Most of training is trying to prevent them chasing (by avoiding opportunities) and get them to hunt methodically and retrieve. Their job is to go into cover; hunt it in an orderly manner; find and flush birds and then stop not chase. A lot of what we expect from them is against their instincts and on a single day of work on a diy or rough shoot the expectations are contradictory. We expect them to find and flush live birds but not chase and definitely not catch; to sit quietly with us whilst shooting and (hopefully) birds falling out of the sky all around them without moving or making a noise and to pick up dead birds only when asked and bring them straight back to us without eating them, mauling them, dropping them or switching onto another falling bird. If a bird is wounded ie. a 'runner' we expect them to chase it down and retrieve it to us for rapid dispatch.

Only a very serious trainer would expect to get a decent result bringing up two dogs with less than a year between them. Even then the trainer would increase chances of success by kennelling and taken out for training one at a time for 10 minutes at a time. The other thing serious or professional trainers have is access to ground where there will be no temptation all the way through controlled situations like a rabbit pen and they usually have access to high quality shoots and can choose a dog for each situation. They also offload their failures as pets or working dogs for people with less time to train.

I think the mistake I made with my cocker is that I really enjoyed his speed, drive and ability to learn and all appeared well in a non pressure situation. I thought the brakes and steering were OK. Problem is he doubled his horsepower when he encountered game and he has been very difficult to manage in the field but if you saw how he is in a sterile training scenario you'd think he was mustard.

I've just taken on a springer pup and I will certainly be paying more attention to managing and helping him self manage drive and energy rather than leaving it up to the stop/recall commands. At the moment he's teething and very distractible so I've paused retrieving because he loves to follow and pick up a thrown object but then sits down and chews it. He is around my legs all the time (which is great) so it's not easy to do recall work and it's to hot to be charging about hunting so this week I'm just getting him used to crate, car, housetraining, lots of cuddle time. I'll need to get him used to a collar and lead (wearing it not heel work) as we are going to puppy classes in a couple of weeks.

I have mixed feelings about YouTube. Some of the trainers are good communicators and the videos are fun, but the speed at which most dogs respond to stimuli, it's difficult to see what's going on and they, of course can edit away errors. I think reading a traditional book like Joe Irving's 'Gundogs. Their Learning Chain' works better for my pace of learning. Interesting people mentioning Hampshire gundog training. He's a bit waffly and ranty but he talks sense - he is pretty strict and advocates no walks for puppies. I can see the sense in that. One ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure. I'm definitely taking that on board with the new pup.

[dillenger]

Having shared a house with basset hounds what you got was a couch loving dustbin.

Vinnie is so different he can get to the door before my car keys have finished rattling, we do tend to take him everywhere with us. around the house there is no escaping him, cutting an onion look down he is right by your side, having a shave right there sat in the bathroom settling down in front of the tv curled up by your feet, I move he is up, I think this goes with any spaniel not so much a dog as an extension of you.

Dropping in and emergency stop every night now once maybe twice and never together, he stops dead, last night was the first time when he had a ball in his mouth to him ball is God ball is king, so in the middle of a game of fetch shows a great start.

looking forward to next Sunday when his trainer chooses what we do, we go in blind with no time to prepare, he has a big black lab and a spaniel which sit in his van doors open and never move, that would be fun to see how well he does with other dogs around him.

[Ceeejay]

We messed up with our working cocker. She was only ever going to be a pet, but we thought we understood what could happen if we didn’t stimulate her mind.

Up to 6 months she was brilliant.. we had worked on basic obidience, a few tricks, and because we live out in the sticks we barely out her on a lead. Then her confidence kicked in and she discovered wild life. The field behind us is packed with furry and feathery things, and one day she decided they were fun to flush and chase.

So for her own safety she went on a lead, which she wouldn’t respond to, just hanging off all the time. Went through various gadgets, with a halti nose collar having the best effect.

Went to a gun dog trainer who’s attitude was way too much towards working for us. In hind sight we should have just been more strict. At nearly 2 she still pays little attention to us when on the lead, gets way too excited in crowded situations. She goes off lead at the beach, but we daren’t in the field..

In the house she’s absolutely brilliant, no begging, or destroying things, and sleeps happily in her crate at night. Love her to bits, but feel we’ve let her down as she can’t enjoy the outside.

Edited by Ceeejay on Monday 18th July 05:44

[dillenger]

She is a real beauty

That second picture is my wifes nightmare , we have a local park with a lake and hundreds of ducks, not often we take him there but he would be on a very short lead. At the moment if a pigeon lands in our garden he will watch from a distance, i have seen him move indoors...but in the last week he has been creeping forward

[Ceeejay]

dillenger said:

She is a real beauty

That second picture is my wifes nightmare , we have a local park with a lake and hundreds of ducks, not often we take him there but he would be on a very short lead. At the moment if a pigeon lands in our garden he will watch from a distance, i have seen him move indoors...but in the last week he has been creeping forward

Thankfully that wasn’t a live kill. We walked round the field after the local shoot had been in, and she found this one in a hedge row.

Pigeons aren’t allowed within about a 50ft perimeter of our garden otherwise she starts going nuts. She’ll squeal at the window when they are sitting in the garage roof. A behaviour we need to deal with still

Edited by Ceeejay on Monday 18th July 12:35

[sc0tt]

Ceeejay said:

dillenger said:

She is a real beauty

That second picture is my wifes nightmare , we have a local park with a lake and hundreds of ducks, not often we take him there but he would be on a very short lead. At the moment if a pigeon lands in our garden he will watch from a distance, i have seen him move indoors...but in the last week he has been creeping forward

Thankfully that wasn’t a live kill. We walked round the field after the local shoot had been in, and she found this one in a hedge row.

Pigeons aren’t allowed within about a 50ft perimeter of our garden otherwise she starts going nuts. She’ll squeal at the window when they are sitting in the garage roof. A behaviour we need to deal with still

Edited by Ceeejay on Monday 18th July 12:35

Let me know how, my cockapoo goes mental at pigeons.

[Challo]

sc0tt said:

Ceeejay said:

dillenger said:

She is a real beauty

That second picture is my wifes nightmare , we have a local park with a lake and hundreds of ducks, not often we take him there but he would be on a very short lead. At the moment if a pigeon lands in our garden he will watch from a distance, i have seen him move indoors...but in the last week he has been creeping forward

Thankfully that wasn’t a live kill. We walked round the field after the local shoot had been in, and she found this one in a hedge row.

Pigeons aren’t allowed within about a 50ft perimeter of our garden otherwise she starts going nuts. She’ll squeal at the window when they are sitting in the garage roof. A behaviour we need to deal with still

Edited by Ceeejay on Monday 18th July 12:35

Let me know how, my cockapoo goes mental at pigeons.

Mine lost his st earlier at one sat on a house roof 2 doors down.

[TooLateForAName]

The desire for birds is strong.

Our first cocker used to try to chase planes. (we're near an RAF base and get some low flying jets)

[oddman]

TooLateForAName said:

The desire for birds is strong.

Our first cocker used to try to chase planes. (we're near an RAF base and get some low flying jets)

Anything in the sky when I'm standing on my peg he wants me to shoot it. Twitching and reacting to everything - including planes.

That being said, he puts me onto birds which I wouldn't have seen because of his hypervigilance.

[dillenger]

Sunday was his second lesson, trying to gauge how well he does with distractions around him. Its ok for us to be in a field on our own, throwing a ball him bringing it back but how focussed on us is he when things are going on around him.

Enter Otto & Greta two of the trainer’s own dogs. As he expected, Vinnie’s home training went out of the window when he had these two deliberately cutting across him on his way back to us, I doubt many dogs would not have joined in the game of chase.

Vinnie knows what to do…but getting him to do it first time is down to us.

After a quick chat we are back at it. Now if he does not respond first time, we correct him not ask repeatedly until he decides to listen, if he creeps on his stop command, we hold his collar and take him back, If the sit command brings a laid down position he is sat up, any movement on his wait command he is re-set and told again to wait.

Today has not only been about Vinnie’s training it is about our approach letting him get away with little things, Vinnie is and always will be a pet but being a bit firmer once or twice with him has delivered results,throwing his ball next to Otto & Greta who was holding a sitting position he did not give them a second thought collected his ball and placed it back into my hand.

[oddman]

dillenger said:

After a quick chat we are back at it. Now if he does not respond first time, we correct him not ask repeatedly until he decides to listen, if he creeps on his stop command, we hold his collar and take him back, If the sit command brings a laid down position he is sat up, any movement on his wait command he is re-set and told again to wait.

Today has not only been about Vinnie’s training it is about our approach letting him get away with little things, Vinnie is and always will be a pet but being a bit firmer once or twice with him has delivered results,throwing his ball next to Otto & Greta who was holding a sitting position he did not give them a second thought collected his ball and placed it back into my hand.

This is why I recommend gun dog owners do gun dog training. The perfectionism of trainers and the effort and correction required to get a dog to standard can seem over the top to pet owners. However the standard expected in the field and on trials is high so if you can get a pet close to this you'll have a really rewarding experience doing the training and a much better relationship over the remaining 10+ years you have with him.

Vinnie looks a bit like my Smudge