Help advice from vets.
Discussion
Some on here will know of my old Lab (Phoebe) and her terrible health struggles over the course of her life. She is 14 now and quite crippled, her back legs are trashed (though still work when she wants them to) but she needs lots of help now. Other than her legs, she is a healthy old lass! I get up with her every three hours day and night to take her out for a wee as she's a bit leaky if fast asleep for too long, I carry her when she needs me to (which is not easy when you're a cripple yourself, walking stick etc) feed her the best chicken which I cook for her (and Chester of course) daily.
She still loves to go out in the afternoons and while she can't run after her ball anymore, she does enjoy playing catch so long as I am fairly accurate, she plays in the hedge and destroys them as she has done all her life, it's her favourite pass-time! She is a happy old lady with bad legs.
However, I have fallen out with her old vets as they kept on and on about putting her to sleep as she is in pain and going downhill and is not going to get better. I was told about a new 'wonder-drug' that could (maybe) help her mobility so I changed vets to the one recommended. I did part ways with the old one with a few choice remarks about the quality of care she has received regarding the constant PTS. We did send a video of her to the old vets of her out at the park playing happily, and they did, grudgingly, accept that she seems a 'happy dog'!
So today was the first appointment with the new vets ( a mobile outfit based in Heathfield) and it was terrible! No access to the wonder drug as short supply and she needs to be put to sleep! Apparently, the dog is in great pain, the fact she wants to go to the park in the afternoons is just to please me as she adores me and how will I feel if she does suddenly go downhill and begins to suffer and she needs to be pts before that can happen.
She's not in 'great pain' no amount of pulling or prodding elicited any negative response from Phoebe and she's the one that insists on going to the park, I'd happily give it a miss some days but no, Phoebe's outside with her ball from about 1:00 pm ready for the off and squeaking fit to bust!) and as to pts BEFORE she starts to suffer, well, that could have been when she was a year old, anything can happen anytime surely?
Best of all, if I won't accept this then she (I) will be reported to the RSPCA as a 'Welfare case'!
God's sake, she is cared for better than I care for myself, goes to bloody vets every ten minutes and the only silly bugger suffering in all this is me having to take her out at three-hourly intervals day and night (yes my alarm is set three hours at a time) and having to carry her when she's tired.
This RSPCA threat has scared me rigid and I don't know what to do. Phoebe is not at the point where she is ready for the long sleep and peopel see her out and about and always thinks she's young dog not a 14 year old.
She still loves to go out in the afternoons and while she can't run after her ball anymore, she does enjoy playing catch so long as I am fairly accurate, she plays in the hedge and destroys them as she has done all her life, it's her favourite pass-time! She is a happy old lady with bad legs.
However, I have fallen out with her old vets as they kept on and on about putting her to sleep as she is in pain and going downhill and is not going to get better. I was told about a new 'wonder-drug' that could (maybe) help her mobility so I changed vets to the one recommended. I did part ways with the old one with a few choice remarks about the quality of care she has received regarding the constant PTS. We did send a video of her to the old vets of her out at the park playing happily, and they did, grudgingly, accept that she seems a 'happy dog'!
So today was the first appointment with the new vets ( a mobile outfit based in Heathfield) and it was terrible! No access to the wonder drug as short supply and she needs to be put to sleep! Apparently, the dog is in great pain, the fact she wants to go to the park in the afternoons is just to please me as she adores me and how will I feel if she does suddenly go downhill and begins to suffer and she needs to be pts before that can happen.
She's not in 'great pain' no amount of pulling or prodding elicited any negative response from Phoebe and she's the one that insists on going to the park, I'd happily give it a miss some days but no, Phoebe's outside with her ball from about 1:00 pm ready for the off and squeaking fit to bust!) and as to pts BEFORE she starts to suffer, well, that could have been when she was a year old, anything can happen anytime surely?
Best of all, if I won't accept this then she (I) will be reported to the RSPCA as a 'Welfare case'!
God's sake, she is cared for better than I care for myself, goes to bloody vets every ten minutes and the only silly bugger suffering in all this is me having to take her out at three-hourly intervals day and night (yes my alarm is set three hours at a time) and having to carry her when she's tired.
This RSPCA threat has scared me rigid and I don't know what to do. Phoebe is not at the point where she is ready for the long sleep and peopel see her out and about and always thinks she's young dog not a 14 year old.
Not sure what to say to you... Big respect for not taking the "easy" way out, you clearly care an incredible amount for her.
Which may be clouding your judgement a little. I've never had to do it myself, but there is the "better a week too soon, than a day too late" argument.
Ultimately, you AND your vet need to agree when the time comes. Now may not be quite that time, but it rather sounds like you might need to begin preparing yourself.
Until that time does come, make the most of each other. And I don't think you have anything to worry about regards the RSPCA.
Feel free to disagree with me, I don't know you or Phoebe. But I do sympathise.
Which may be clouding your judgement a little. I've never had to do it myself, but there is the "better a week too soon, than a day too late" argument.
Ultimately, you AND your vet need to agree when the time comes. Now may not be quite that time, but it rather sounds like you might need to begin preparing yourself.
Until that time does come, make the most of each other. And I don't think you have anything to worry about regards the RSPCA.
Feel free to disagree with me, I don't know you or Phoebe. But I do sympathise.
Take a trip north and come and see me!! I don't really do dogs compared to my passion for cows but do not just give in to some fud who says PTS without having been through the mill themselves. Yes, death is coming, for us all, but the most important question is really what would your friend choose if they knew the options? If every vet says PTS, then without further info, maybe they are right, but keep changing until you find one who understands you and your pal. Sadly that may take all her life that is left, but if she is happy enough, then stick to your guns. As regards the RSPCA, all the more reason to keep looking for professional back up, RSPCA will not get involved in a dispute between two veterinary opinions.
I have known many clients who have hung on to their pet for too long and those that have almost looked for a get out, every case is different, but so many vets of the modern age just cannot think of anything but churning out what they heard in a lecture, it is usually different when it is their own pet, from sore ears to major disasters. Feel free to PM if I can be of any help
I have known many clients who have hung on to their pet for too long and those that have almost looked for a get out, every case is different, but so many vets of the modern age just cannot think of anything but churning out what they heard in a lecture, it is usually different when it is their own pet, from sore ears to major disasters. Feel free to PM if I can be of any help
Thanks for the replies, very much appreciated. I have considered that I am in the wrong here and that she is suffering due to me, but in all honesty, I think if Phoebe knew the options she would rather carry on as she truly enjoys her life. Apart from her legs, she is strong, her heart and all other organs going well and no known issues.
It was the threat of the RSPCA coming and taking her away that shocked me to the core. Gone three in the morning and I am still awake worrying about this. I am going to find an older vet that cares but I find this situation appalling.
It was the threat of the RSPCA coming and taking her away that shocked me to the core. Gone three in the morning and I am still awake worrying about this. I am going to find an older vet that cares but I find this situation appalling.
It is a truly horrible situation to be in and one that every keeper of pets dreads, I do feel for you.
In the majority of cases I do think that the client is best placed to judge the overall quality of life, but sometimes they are too clouded and we as vets we do need to push euthanasia for the welfare of the animal.
Unfortunately there is a shortage of Librela, there are other drugs available that can be used in combination. Typically an older lab with near end stage hind limb issues might be on a combination of Yumove, a NSAID eg Metacam, Pardale, and Gabapentin or Tralieve.
There is also Cartrophen (but not at the same time as NSAID). Accupuncture can also be surprisingly effective.
Exercise management is also hugely important, shorter more frequent bouts of low impact exercise, avoiding any stairs or jumping etc.
Best of luck.
In the majority of cases I do think that the client is best placed to judge the overall quality of life, but sometimes they are too clouded and we as vets we do need to push euthanasia for the welfare of the animal.
Unfortunately there is a shortage of Librela, there are other drugs available that can be used in combination. Typically an older lab with near end stage hind limb issues might be on a combination of Yumove, a NSAID eg Metacam, Pardale, and Gabapentin or Tralieve.
There is also Cartrophen (but not at the same time as NSAID). Accupuncture can also be surprisingly effective.
Exercise management is also hugely important, shorter more frequent bouts of low impact exercise, avoiding any stairs or jumping etc.
Best of luck.
loquacious said:
So today was the first appointment with the new vets ( a mobile outfit based in Heathfield) and it was terrible! No access to the wonder drug as short supply and she needs to be put to sleep! Apparently, the dog is in great pain, the fact she wants to go to the park in the afternoons is just to please me as she adores me and how will I feel if she does suddenly go downhill and begins to suffer and she needs to be pts before that can happen.
She's not in 'great pain' no amount of pulling or prodding elicited any negative response from Phoebe and she's the one that insists on going to the park, I'd happily give it a miss some days but no, Phoebe's outside with her ball from about 1:00 pm ready for the off and squeaking fit to bust!) and as to pts BEFORE she starts to suffer, well, that could have been when she was a year old, anything can happen anytime surely?
On the basis that as soon as she didn't want to go for a walk you'd be quick to act, I think you are entirely correct. We have similar with an 11 year old GSD, who is certainly getting "old" - she's stiff, doesn't run any more (ambles purposefully instead) but still wants to go for a walk, still interacts happily with other dogs and is generally interested in the environment. We were very worried when she didn't like her regular walk during the summer, but we've worked out it is a vision problem - she was nervous walking next to long grass for some reason. Now the grass has been cut, she is back to her usual self.She's not in 'great pain' no amount of pulling or prodding elicited any negative response from Phoebe and she's the one that insists on going to the park, I'd happily give it a miss some days but no, Phoebe's outside with her ball from about 1:00 pm ready for the off and squeaking fit to bust!) and as to pts BEFORE she starts to suffer, well, that could have been when she was a year old, anything can happen anytime surely?
She had a major operation 6 months ago, and as Mrs rxe is a medic, the vet was (I think) able to have a more direct conversation than he normally does. We agreed that the operation was likely to be successful, and would allow the dog to live longer and have a good quality of life. But he said, if I scan her and she is riddled with tumours, I will PTS on the table without waking her up. We agreed, thankfully the dog was fine and 6 months later appears to be well recovered. IMO that is a sensible vet with the correct outlook.
If you're in the South I can recommend our vets as an option - I would trust the guy who operated absolutely.
rxe said:
On the basis that as soon as she didn't want to go for a walk you'd be quick to act, I think you are entirely correct. We have similar with an 11 year old GSD, who is certainly getting "old" - she's stiff, doesn't run any more (ambles purposefully instead) but still wants to go for a walk, still interacts happily with other dogs and is generally interested in the environment. We were very worried when she didn't like her regular walk during the summer, but we've worked out it is a vision problem - she was nervous walking next to long grass for some reason. Now the grass has been cut, she is back to her usual self.
She had a major operation 6 months ago, and as Mrs rxe is a medic, the vet was (I think) able to have a more direct conversation than he normally does. We agreed that the operation was likely to be successful, and would allow the dog to live longer and have a good quality of life. But he said, if I scan her and she is riddled with tumours, I will PTS on the table without waking her up. We agreed, thankfully the dog was fine and 6 months later appears to be well recovered. IMO that is a sensible vet with the correct outlook.
If you're in the South I can recommend our vets as an option - I would trust the guy who operated absolutely.
Can you let me know who you use, please?She had a major operation 6 months ago, and as Mrs rxe is a medic, the vet was (I think) able to have a more direct conversation than he normally does. We agreed that the operation was likely to be successful, and would allow the dog to live longer and have a good quality of life. But he said, if I scan her and she is riddled with tumours, I will PTS on the table without waking her up. We agreed, thankfully the dog was fine and 6 months later appears to be well recovered. IMO that is a sensible vet with the correct outlook.
If you're in the South I can recommend our vets as an option - I would trust the guy who operated absolutely.
I feel a bit better after some sleep but I fear I was being bullied, I hate bullies! Phoebe is old, decrepit and horrery but she is still a happy dog! Still engaged, keen and eating well, as soon as this changes options will be taken, sadly. There is a vet around here that a lot of people swear by (Marnie) but she is away on a course until the end of the month, bugger! I was going to take her there this time but was swayed by the wonder drug, big mistake.
I don't have a great deal of faith in vets -sorry- but over the years they have pretty much ruined Phoebe's quality of life (and cost me over £30.000!) from the vet that knicked her bowel during an op (Peritonitis, 6 weeks 24-hour care!) to the idiot that repaired her broken elbow, so well repaired it has never bent since! Her front legs are a right mess due to poor vets who think they can do things beyond them. Her back legs went during her re-hab from the front legs ops and she went from being a manic, active dog to a cripple in a matter of 3 months. That was when she was just turned 8 so I have plenty of knowledge of nursing her!
Yesterday I was upset, scared and really upset, today, I am angry!
Watch this space...
garythesign said:
OP. I hope things work out for you and you friend.
To the two vets who have posted. Thank you for taking the time to respond to the OP.
The compassion you show does you and your profession proud.
Well said and I totally agree. It's coming to something when I get much better advice from people on the internet I have never met (and probably never will) than in person. Perhaps it's me, I'm just an arse that vets can't stand?To the two vets who have posted. Thank you for taking the time to respond to the OP.
The compassion you show does you and your profession proud.
Always had great advice on here (Bex was a great help several times) and a massive 'thank you' for your help
As the owner of a 14 year old retriever I can relate to what you are going through. Double cruciate ligament operations when he was one and then again at two years old, arthritis in his spine. He is on Galliprant tablets alongside the monthly wonder drug injection Librela (he’s had 5 injections so far). I recommended canine arthritis management FB group for information on pain relief - there are lots of different options and hopefully you’ll find something that works for your dog.
I am so lucky to have a fantastic vet practice. Four weeks ago we thought we were going to have to make THAT call, he suffered a vestibular episode (very scary) and couldn’t get up for 3 days, not eating or drinking either. A lot of vet advice, medication, care and attention and he’s back on the road recovery - a very slow process but we’re getting there.
We have a “help em up” harness which he needs just to help him up the stairs and for longer walks just in case he stumbles.
I hope you and Phoebe find a more understanding vet.
I am so lucky to have a fantastic vet practice. Four weeks ago we thought we were going to have to make THAT call, he suffered a vestibular episode (very scary) and couldn’t get up for 3 days, not eating or drinking either. A lot of vet advice, medication, care and attention and he’s back on the road recovery - a very slow process but we’re getting there.
We have a “help em up” harness which he needs just to help him up the stairs and for longer walks just in case he stumbles.
I hope you and Phoebe find a more understanding vet.
Hey, I rarely pop in here but thought I would today and I see your post re dear Phoebe.
This is such an incredibly emotional situation. I know from the many years you have posted about Phoebe just how much you love her and I would never ever doubt that you would want the best for her but I also know this does mean it can be incredibly hard to see things from a slightly more pragmatic point but that is where a trusted vet will help.
I am back working in a vets (not as a nurse) where I absolutely trust the vets with their opinion, one of whom herself owns a very elderly and very arthritic labrador. (the same vet who I trusted to help me re my dear dog Jimmy)
I can't tell you what you should do based on what you have described but I always work on that the final decision is better a few days early rather than one day too late, if you have that choice.
I don't feel this is something you need to decide right now for Phoebe but I do think you need to prepare soon. Labradors are born to please and are stubborn which means they hide a lot!
I hate that you have been threatened with the RSPCA but I have NEVER worked with a vet that makes that 'threat' lightly, they will genuinely believe there is a just reason to do it.
Just wondering. There was a.pain medication regime suggested on here further up, what is Phoebe currently on?
I am truly sorry for the distress you are dealing with, being decision makers for our four legged friends is really tough
This is such an incredibly emotional situation. I know from the many years you have posted about Phoebe just how much you love her and I would never ever doubt that you would want the best for her but I also know this does mean it can be incredibly hard to see things from a slightly more pragmatic point but that is where a trusted vet will help.
I am back working in a vets (not as a nurse) where I absolutely trust the vets with their opinion, one of whom herself owns a very elderly and very arthritic labrador. (the same vet who I trusted to help me re my dear dog Jimmy)
I can't tell you what you should do based on what you have described but I always work on that the final decision is better a few days early rather than one day too late, if you have that choice.
I don't feel this is something you need to decide right now for Phoebe but I do think you need to prepare soon. Labradors are born to please and are stubborn which means they hide a lot!
I hate that you have been threatened with the RSPCA but I have NEVER worked with a vet that makes that 'threat' lightly, they will genuinely believe there is a just reason to do it.
Just wondering. There was a.pain medication regime suggested on here further up, what is Phoebe currently on?
I am truly sorry for the distress you are dealing with, being decision makers for our four legged friends is really tough
bexVN said:
I can't tell you what you should do based on what you have described but I always work on that the final decision is better a few days early rather than one day too late, if you have that choice
Wise wordsMy partner and I always thought we would know when to make the call. Even when we at the vets we questioned whether it was 'too soon' especially when they took him out to do an final review and he livened up seeing us - adrenaline apparently (he's a cat though)
With hindsight we left it 2 or 3 days too long. He was very happy/mobile 3 days before but then - well, it wasn't pleasant for him
Difficult call OP. I'm sure you'll sense the time is coming but for both of you better is earlier (as harsh as that sounds) - FWIW we were the same, carrying him around etc, then the 3 hours isn't enough - heartbreaking
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ky5thnutszazqnr/20210722...
Hope that works...
Another thing that worried me, the new vet didn't examine Phoebe at all apart from (when she was stood up) bending her toes under her feet, which Phoebe instantly put back to the correct position. The vet did all four legs and the backs several times but as this was the first meeting for her, you'd have thought there would be a proper check-over. Didn't check her eyes, teeth (always good for a little earner with an old dog, must need a few teeth pulling - not Phoebe, her teeth are fine, as are Chester's) didn't check her heart, her breathing, prod her stomach, nothing.
It was almost as though the diagnosis was decided before she even met her. I think, as said above, some form of 'backing up' the other vets was going on.
The video posted above was a month ago, I did take a load of her on Thursday but I am (currently) too stupid to work out how to upload them!
Bex I have always had the greatest of respect for you, but believe me, when Phoebe even looks like she's unhappy or suffering, then the option will be taken. The vet made the RSPCA threat because I wasn't agreeing with her, seemed to slip with ease from her mouth.
Hope that works...
Another thing that worried me, the new vet didn't examine Phoebe at all apart from (when she was stood up) bending her toes under her feet, which Phoebe instantly put back to the correct position. The vet did all four legs and the backs several times but as this was the first meeting for her, you'd have thought there would be a proper check-over. Didn't check her eyes, teeth (always good for a little earner with an old dog, must need a few teeth pulling - not Phoebe, her teeth are fine, as are Chester's) didn't check her heart, her breathing, prod her stomach, nothing.
It was almost as though the diagnosis was decided before she even met her. I think, as said above, some form of 'backing up' the other vets was going on.
The video posted above was a month ago, I did take a load of her on Thursday but I am (currently) too stupid to work out how to upload them!
Bex I have always had the greatest of respect for you, but believe me, when Phoebe even looks like she's unhappy or suffering, then the option will be taken. The vet made the RSPCA threat because I wasn't agreeing with her, seemed to slip with ease from her mouth.
I used to video our old retriever clambering into the car after puppy bouncing waiting for the door to open. Then excitably leaping out when we got there to the forest. To show the vet. They always seemed to appreciate it as they can see the dogs behaviour without a white coat in sight.
We knew without doubt when the time came for the vet to visit us and do the deed.
We knew without doubt when the time came for the vet to visit us and do the deed.
Please bear in mind these were taken on the day she'd seen the vet. She'd been in the car since 8:45 and at 11:00 she was hot and tired but I needed to get out as I was a tiny bit upset.
Also, remember she is 14 years old and her back legs are bad, she can walk (and does) but if she can get some mug to do the work for her, so much the better! The game is: I try and get the ball, she tries to keep it which is why I use my stick to get it 'cos when she misses and gets your fingers, it bloody hurts! You will note please, that regardless of how much she moves, she NEVER seems to be in pain, if she's hiding it, she deserves an oscar!
I bought her a new harness thing yesterday and using that, she can walk far more easily as I just support her. What's more, she seems to like it and is quite keen on having gentle walks using it.
She certainly looks lovely and happy in the videos, but it would be videos of her getting up from laying down, and walking that would really give some information.
Is she on any pain relief / anti-inflammatories or supplements? I know she doesn't show you that she is in pain, but I am afraid that in all likelihood that she will be in pain when she rises and walks.
If she is not on anything, then I really would recommend that she be seen by a vet with a view to trying some meds. You can buy Yumove over the internet or better still Hills j/d, but an NSAID would be the cornerstone of management.
All the best
Is she on any pain relief / anti-inflammatories or supplements? I know she doesn't show you that she is in pain, but I am afraid that in all likelihood that she will be in pain when she rises and walks.
If she is not on anything, then I really would recommend that she be seen by a vet with a view to trying some meds. You can buy Yumove over the internet or better still Hills j/d, but an NSAID would be the cornerstone of management.
All the best
From the videos you posted Phoebe looks calm and content - but isn't at all mobile, which would seem to be the crucial thing from your earlier summary. The care and dedication you are showing demonstrate your commitment to her.
Fortunately I've only dealt with vet practices in which I have full confidence and have no adverse stories to echo yours. In my experience vets are not enthusiastic to euthanise pets but you acknowledge that two distinct professionals have concluded that this is the best course for your dog. I know this is a heartbreaking thing to hear but I'd ask myself what's in it for a vet to make this recommendation.
I know it's personally difficult to view it dispassionately, and I've had to make this call with cats twice in the last few years. You have my sympathies for the decision you face.
Fortunately I've only dealt with vet practices in which I have full confidence and have no adverse stories to echo yours. In my experience vets are not enthusiastic to euthanise pets but you acknowledge that two distinct professionals have concluded that this is the best course for your dog. I know this is a heartbreaking thing to hear but I'd ask myself what's in it for a vet to make this recommendation.
I know it's personally difficult to view it dispassionately, and I've had to make this call with cats twice in the last few years. You have my sympathies for the decision you face.
Firstly, I'm sorry to read about Phoebe, it's not a nice situation for her or you either.
My parents had to have their dog, Millie, put to sleep about a month ago. She had similar problems to Phoebe where her back legs were giving up, this got gradually worse for around the last 2 months of her life. In the end, she could still walk but would fall over sometimes.
The differences between Mille & Phoebe were that Mille just didn't look happy in the end where Phoebe looks happy to me at least. Millie also had other issues possibly causing her pain (she was on Metacam daily)
We (me & parents) didn't think Millie's leg trouble was on it's own enough to warrant the final vets trip so, as I said, she carried on like this for a couple of months. If anything, it was probably the concern about the other pain that we were more worried about.
Anyway, in the end, we just 'knew'. She was definitely not as happy & although still eating she just had a look of "I've had enough".
I know it's a cliche but I really think it is true that you (the owner) does know when the time is right. The one thing I would say is I'd rather have taken Millie to the Vet a week early than a day late.
In summary, Phoebe looks like Millie did a couple of months ago to me & we certainly weren't even thinking about having her put to sleep then & nor were the Vets who saw her regularly.
Good luck.
Ben
My parents had to have their dog, Millie, put to sleep about a month ago. She had similar problems to Phoebe where her back legs were giving up, this got gradually worse for around the last 2 months of her life. In the end, she could still walk but would fall over sometimes.
The differences between Mille & Phoebe were that Mille just didn't look happy in the end where Phoebe looks happy to me at least. Millie also had other issues possibly causing her pain (she was on Metacam daily)
We (me & parents) didn't think Millie's leg trouble was on it's own enough to warrant the final vets trip so, as I said, she carried on like this for a couple of months. If anything, it was probably the concern about the other pain that we were more worried about.
Anyway, in the end, we just 'knew'. She was definitely not as happy & although still eating she just had a look of "I've had enough".
I know it's a cliche but I really think it is true that you (the owner) does know when the time is right. The one thing I would say is I'd rather have taken Millie to the Vet a week early than a day late.
In summary, Phoebe looks like Millie did a couple of months ago to me & we certainly weren't even thinking about having her put to sleep then & nor were the Vets who saw her regularly.
Good luck.
Ben
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