Viewing some pups this morning...

[WindyCommon]

I am off shortly to view some Cocker Spaniel pups with a friend of mine who's looking for one.

Apparently the seller has a pair that went off to a new home at 9 weeks, but have been returned by the owners who found looking after puppies incompatible with their jobs/lives etc. Hmmmm.... The pups are 14 weeks old now. Not KC registered, but prospective purchaser doesn't care about that. Neither do I frankly.

I am familiar with dogs - I have a Cocker myself - but just wondering whether or not any alarm bells should be ringing given that this isn't the usual collect at 9 weeks scenario. Beyond getting properly to the bottom of why the breeder has them at 14 weeks, what should I be looking for or asking questions on?

Thanks in advance.

Edited by WindyCommon on Tuesday 24th September 09:36

[Jasandjules]

We don't allow our pups to leave until they are 12-14 weeks...

[makaveli144]

At 14 weeks the pup has already finished its major socialization period. Usually between 8-12 weeks, so if the breeder hasnt socialised them well then you may face an uphill battle.

If they have been exposed to everything they should then on the plus side you will have missed a few weeks of the hard puppy bit.

[WindyCommon]

Thank you.

[Johnnytheboy]

Depends on the breed, Bulldogs are usually sold at eight weeks.

[parakitaMol.]

makaveli144 said:

At 14 weeks the pup has already finished its major socialization period. Usually between 8-12 weeks, so if the breeder hasnt socialised them well then you may face an uphill battle.

If they have been exposed to everything they should then on the plus side you will have missed a few weeks of the hard puppy bit.

This is absolutely right, its your main consideration. I would suspect that if the person has given up after such a short time they haven't a clue what they are doing so unlikely to have done all the things they need to.

Also that the 'breeder' has allowed pups to go as a pair to people who don't have the skills to cope with 1 let alone 2. I have 4 dogs and I train or work with them individually - its virtually impossible to do otherwise unless you have already trained them to wait / settle while you focus on the other one. Are they working or show lines? there's quite a big difference in temperament and drive between them.


Do you have someone experienced you could take with you to help assess where they are at? In terms of skills, social and confidence. Also when considering social skills, dogs have different levels of ability - being at home with familiar dogs is very different to how they view and respond to strange dogs when out and about.


Might be fine, but also there are some big considerations. Last thing these pups need is another short-stay - these are critical periods in a dogs life, they form fundamental responses to external stimuli during this period. Good luck with your decision.


The breeders I know would never let a pair of littermates go together unless in exceptional circumstances.

[The Moose]

Jasandjules said:

We don't allow our pups to leave until they are 12-14 weeks...

Do you mind if I ask why not?

[parakitaMol.]

The Moose said:

Jasandjules said:

We don't allow our pups to leave until they are 12-14 weeks...

Do you mind if I ask why not?

Yes I'd be interested too - seeing as that is the compete end of the first critical period - do you cover every single experience and formative training skill that the pup needs on behalf of new puppy owners - including attending puppy classes separately with each pup. That is a monumental training task!

I would not ever take a pup at 12-14 weeks because the window is closed and it is WAY too late in puppy development and I absolutely would not trust that the breeder could possibly cover all the things that are so critical for a balanced adult dog. Unless perhaps they were a highly skilled trainer and behaviourist.

By 14 weeks my pup was totally focused on me in highly distracting environments, comfortable with noise and startling surprises with a fabulous recovery - traffic, trucks, generators, wildlife, etc he knew 15 cues (distance with verbal cues with distraction). He could focus totally on me sitting next to a skate park - great recall too- he could be nail clipped and examined by vet, crate trained both in home, outside at events and in the car and my van - etc etc - how can you do that properly before 12 weeks with an entire litter?.

I know I'm a trainer and I know how to achieve this stuff but still - every pup needs to do most of those things by 12 weeks! (and not just once, continuously).

[WindyCommon]

parakitaMol. said:

Do you have someone experienced you could take with you to help assess where they are at? In terms of skills, social and confidence. Also when considering social skills, dogs have different levels of ability - being at home with familiar dogs is very different to how they view and respond to strange dogs when out and about.

My friend didn't feel the pup mentioned yesterday was the right one. He (the pup not my friend!) was a confident little chap, approached us all freely and didn't mind me lifting his lips and examining his ears. He was happy to be picked up and handled by my friends daughter.

Whilst I'm an owner and dog lover, I wouldn't describe myself as experienced in making the determination that you describe parakitaMol. But I think it is quite apparent when a puppy is confident, and when they are nervous. Maybe that is enough?

They are going to see another dog today. This one is also 12 weeks old, but lives on a working farm. I can't go with them this time, but have suggested that they ask lots of questions about the day to day experiences of the dog with this socialisation period in mind. The breeder maintains - as she would - that the pups are well socialised as the farm is a busy place, and her grandchildren and friends have played with them etc. They are show, not working, cockers. With one of each in our extended family I am well aware of the differences!

Not easy...

Edited by WindyCommon on Wednesday 25th September 09:11

[parakitaMol.]

WindyCommon said:

parakitaMol. said:

Do you have someone experienced you could take with you to help assess where they are at? In terms of skills, social and confidence. Also when considering social skills, dogs have different levels of ability - being at home with familiar dogs is very different to how they view and respond to strange dogs when out and about.

My friend didn't feel the pup mentioned yesterday was the right one. He (the pup not my friend!) was a confident little chap, approached us all freely and didn't mind me lifting his lips and examining his ears. He was happy to be picked up and handled by my friends daughter.

Whilst I'm an owner and dog lover, I wouldn't describe myself as experienced in making the determination that you describe parakitaMol. But I think it is quite apparent when a puppy is confident, and when they are nervous. Maybe that is enough?

They are going to see another dog today. This one is also 12 weeks old, but lives on a working farm. I can't go with them this time, but have suggested that they ask lots of questions about the day to day experiences of the dog with this socialisation period in mind. The breeder maintains - as she would - that the pups are well socialised as the farm is a busy place, and her grandchildren and friends have played with them etc. They are show, not working, cockers. With one of each in our extended family I am well aware of the differences!

Not easy...

Edited by WindyCommon on Wednesday 25th September 09:11

That's good, really didn't mean to question your knowledge, you'd be surprised how many people don't know the difference or the personality traits - I specifically chose show lines for my pup (springer/collie/cocker/poodle) because I wanted the intelligence and desire to work PLUS an off switch due to my anxious boy living in the same house - multi dog households come with another set of challenges lol - lots of people I know have high drive working cockers and springers so they can really work them hard in agility - but that sometimes comes at a price!


The reason I am so passionate about this is that the 'breeder' of my wirehair Dachshund assured me all her pups were thoroughly well socialised - I got my boy at 15 weeks and he was already starting to shut off and be fearful from the world - I didn't know, I just thought he was a bit timid but sweet that he wanted cuddles - thought we could work with it - he hid and shook at puppy class, shook whenever we took him out, and developed some extreme anxieties about different things over his life (he's 10 now). Her idea of being socialised is that they are happy to greet people on their home turf and are sociable around their littermates and home dogs (she had 30 dogs - a prolific wirehair breeder). Mine had NEVER been off her 'farm' and could not cope with one single thing about our lifestyle (car, suburbia, walks, vets, days out, children etc). Just bear that in mind if your older pup is going from a rural farm to a residential area and your lifestyle expectations - I have lived with the fallout for 10 years and it has been incredibly tough and heart breaking to see him so worried.


Wish you every luck with this one - let us know how you get on

[Jasandjules]

The Moose said:

Do you mind if I ask why not?

Their mother tends to keep them in check and they socialise (and learn some more boundaries) with their litter mates certainly between 8 and 12 weeks. Some pups will be ready to leave about 10-12 weeks but we are led by the mother on that front. They also seem to be more settled when they go to new homes at 12 weeks and less nervous of things. We of course take them out socialising with strangers and we have various people come to the house to play with them during this time and some who will wear different things like hats, glasses etc..and we play noise CDs in their room too.