Did we break our Springer?
Discussion
Looking for some reassurance or advice from fellow ESS owners.
We adopted our boy, Moose, earlier this year, when he was a couple of months past a year old. He’d come from a loving home, but one that was totally overwhelmed by dog ownership and wasn’t prepared for the amount of energy and work required to keep him. Basically, he hadn’t had any boundaries set and was let away with murder. Very loving and sweet dog though – total softy. But very hyper at times when he switches it on.
Although we’re not novices when it comes to training, having re-homed aggressive dogs before, we were looking forward to going to group classes just as a bit of fun which we’d previously been denied. The trainer happened to also be a gundog trainer with a thing for small working spaniels, so he was a great source of info and help. Moose took to clicker training really naturally and within his first week or two with us we’d taught him all the basic commands and were starting to transfer it to outdoors for recall and loose lead. We are strict, established rules, manners etc. He became a wee bit of a gent.
That was 6 months ago, and now to be honest I feel like we’ve achieved square root of F-all since. He seems to have regressed recently a bit, and become obsessed with puppy-style play biting and mouthing on our hands and clothes. His prey drive is so strong that although he’s had a recall command absolutely drummed into him while on a long line, we are totally powerless if a bird flies over head. He’ll genuinely chase a bird on the wing for as long as he has it in sight. We have spent months trying to train him to walk to heel, and have all the basics there but I just can’t make it click in his head. He knows when I stop walking because he was pulling that he needs to shuffle back to my feet, but within a step or two he’s off at the end of the lead again (thankfully he walks like a dream on a halti, but he’s terrified of the sight of it).
Off lead he just wants to run laps. I mean proper sprinting in circles around whatever boundary he is in at actual greyhound speeds. He moves like a blur because the outdoors is such an overwhelming novelty to him. And now at over 18 months old, he still seems very small. I just can’t put weight on him. We give him a significant amount of food (Millie’s Wolfheart lamb and veg because of the fat content) over than the feeding guide to try bulk him out as his ribs are pretty visible, but I just can’t get him to tip over 15kg. The vets love him and say he is super fit but would rather he was a bit heavier. There seems to be no limit to how much he’ll eat while not actually getting any bigger.
When people see him on the street they ask if he is a puppy. Mainly because of how excited he is to meet anyone, and how slight he is. I’m getting sick of the looks we get when telling people that no, he is actually almost 2 years old. Surely he should look and act much more maturely than this? Everywhere I look I see amazingly well behaved Springers running about off lead or being walked by people just like me. In some instances it’s like 6 month old pups who are the same size as ours is now that are putting us to shame.
I know some breeds like setters are considered to still be in puppyhood until 2-3 years old. Does anyone have experience of particularly immature ESS males approaching 2 years old? Or is this just what we signed up for? I know they are high energy breed, and I’m pretty well read on most breeds as I’ve always been obsessed with dogs, but nowhere have I seen it noted that Springers are known to be wild and immature well after adolescence and around these parts I seem to be a lone sufferer.
We adopted our boy, Moose, earlier this year, when he was a couple of months past a year old. He’d come from a loving home, but one that was totally overwhelmed by dog ownership and wasn’t prepared for the amount of energy and work required to keep him. Basically, he hadn’t had any boundaries set and was let away with murder. Very loving and sweet dog though – total softy. But very hyper at times when he switches it on.
Although we’re not novices when it comes to training, having re-homed aggressive dogs before, we were looking forward to going to group classes just as a bit of fun which we’d previously been denied. The trainer happened to also be a gundog trainer with a thing for small working spaniels, so he was a great source of info and help. Moose took to clicker training really naturally and within his first week or two with us we’d taught him all the basic commands and were starting to transfer it to outdoors for recall and loose lead. We are strict, established rules, manners etc. He became a wee bit of a gent.
That was 6 months ago, and now to be honest I feel like we’ve achieved square root of F-all since. He seems to have regressed recently a bit, and become obsessed with puppy-style play biting and mouthing on our hands and clothes. His prey drive is so strong that although he’s had a recall command absolutely drummed into him while on a long line, we are totally powerless if a bird flies over head. He’ll genuinely chase a bird on the wing for as long as he has it in sight. We have spent months trying to train him to walk to heel, and have all the basics there but I just can’t make it click in his head. He knows when I stop walking because he was pulling that he needs to shuffle back to my feet, but within a step or two he’s off at the end of the lead again (thankfully he walks like a dream on a halti, but he’s terrified of the sight of it).
Off lead he just wants to run laps. I mean proper sprinting in circles around whatever boundary he is in at actual greyhound speeds. He moves like a blur because the outdoors is such an overwhelming novelty to him. And now at over 18 months old, he still seems very small. I just can’t put weight on him. We give him a significant amount of food (Millie’s Wolfheart lamb and veg because of the fat content) over than the feeding guide to try bulk him out as his ribs are pretty visible, but I just can’t get him to tip over 15kg. The vets love him and say he is super fit but would rather he was a bit heavier. There seems to be no limit to how much he’ll eat while not actually getting any bigger.
When people see him on the street they ask if he is a puppy. Mainly because of how excited he is to meet anyone, and how slight he is. I’m getting sick of the looks we get when telling people that no, he is actually almost 2 years old. Surely he should look and act much more maturely than this? Everywhere I look I see amazingly well behaved Springers running about off lead or being walked by people just like me. In some instances it’s like 6 month old pups who are the same size as ours is now that are putting us to shame.
I know some breeds like setters are considered to still be in puppyhood until 2-3 years old. Does anyone have experience of particularly immature ESS males approaching 2 years old? Or is this just what we signed up for? I know they are high energy breed, and I’m pretty well read on most breeds as I’ve always been obsessed with dogs, but nowhere have I seen it noted that Springers are known to be wild and immature well after adolescence and around these parts I seem to be a lone sufferer.
We adopted our 3rd ESS in Jan, she was just under 18 months old when we got her. She is the same, play biting and mouthing and a mentalist outside. All our ESS have been similar, one was very aggressive and that was a lot harder. They are a hyper energetic and bonkers breed, the energy of a boarder collie with half the intelligence :-)
I wouldn't worry about the size. All of ours have had visible ribs when young and we too were worried. The vet has always said they are a healthy weight and its fine. The just burn so much energy. Ours is a right naughty bugger and always helping itself to leftover and the kids food. Our neighbor said ours looked really skinny.
The energy on these breeds is huge. Last weekend I took ours on a run. This was 13km up massive hills (dragging me for most of it) in the pissing rain. We got back and she spent the rest of the afternoon pestering people to throw her ball.
Our last springer was being mistaken for a puppy when she was 11 years old/
I wouldn't worry about the size. All of ours have had visible ribs when young and we too were worried. The vet has always said they are a healthy weight and its fine. The just burn so much energy. Ours is a right naughty bugger and always helping itself to leftover and the kids food. Our neighbor said ours looked really skinny.
The energy on these breeds is huge. Last weekend I took ours on a run. This was 13km up massive hills (dragging me for most of it) in the pissing rain. We got back and she spent the rest of the afternoon pestering people to throw her ball.
Our last springer was being mistaken for a puppy when she was 11 years old/
Genuinely can't express how useful and encouraging your reply has been. The springers around us are all such tanks.
He's definitely tuned to the moon, but we adore him for it. Funnily enough we previously had a collie, but we adopted him at around 6 or 7 years old and he was pretty maintenance. Sharp as a tack, to the point like it felt you could almost have a conversation with him, but very low energy levels if untapped. Who knows what he'd have been like as a pup. Maybe we just need to wake up to the fact this is what young dogs are like!
He's definitely tuned to the moon, but we adore him for it. Funnily enough we previously had a collie, but we adopted him at around 6 or 7 years old and he was pretty maintenance. Sharp as a tack, to the point like it felt you could almost have a conversation with him, but very low energy levels if untapped. Who knows what he'd have been like as a pup. Maybe we just need to wake up to the fact this is what young dogs are like!
Our ESS learned pretty quick when he was young but regressed from about 1.5 to 2.5 years old. We kept at it and now he’s great.
He’s got a strong prey drive which he sometimes can’t resist at times but he’s rarely out of sight and always looks back to see where we are. We don’t work him but we did train him to find orange scented balls (the ones with the rope, stuffed the rope inside and a drop of orange scent). Now we hide them round the house/garden or throw them in the undergrowth on a walk and tell him to go find. 15 mins of that and he’s done, although he still gets a long walk each day.
Stick at it, they seem to have a fairly long teenager phase where they push the boundaries but you’ll get through it and it’ll all come together.
He’s got a strong prey drive which he sometimes can’t resist at times but he’s rarely out of sight and always looks back to see where we are. We don’t work him but we did train him to find orange scented balls (the ones with the rope, stuffed the rope inside and a drop of orange scent). Now we hide them round the house/garden or throw them in the undergrowth on a walk and tell him to go find. 15 mins of that and he’s done, although he still gets a long walk each day.
Stick at it, they seem to have a fairly long teenager phase where they push the boundaries but you’ll get through it and it’ll all come together.
Sounds to me like you're on the right track and doing the right things. I've got a Cocker, but she's docked, is kept shorn, is skinny and you can see her ribs. Vet say she's a perfect weight.
She's a well trained, and (generally) well behaved dog. But, she's easily distracted, and a squirrel or a pigeon will sometimes over-write the things she knows she ought to do. Occasionally she goes mental and does dog-stuff. I put it down to instinct. Mine is 6 but is usually assumed to be younger.
I tell my family I love the dog more than them; everyone thinks I'm half joking.
She's a well trained, and (generally) well behaved dog. But, she's easily distracted, and a squirrel or a pigeon will sometimes over-write the things she knows she ought to do. Occasionally she goes mental and does dog-stuff. I put it down to instinct. Mine is 6 but is usually assumed to be younger.
I tell my family I love the dog more than them; everyone thinks I'm half joking.
Wrathalanche said:
Maybe we just need to wake up to the fact this is what young dogs are like!
Funnily this is how we ended up with ours. Wet had a cleaner last year. She loved our old Springer, she , the dog, was 11 and dying of cancer. She got a Springer because of our dog but couldn't handle a young one, had no idea that's what they were like. So we took her in. She looks exactly like our first Springer who I was really attached to and am really attached to this one too.They are hard work at times but have such good personality. Always happy.
First of all, well done for rescuing an ESS which I guess from your post is your first Spaniel. Although you haven't said but I assume we are talking a working Springer strain rather than the show variety although in my experience it makes little difference as the underlying spaniel temperament is there whatever the body shape is.
You seem to be targetting a bodyweight according to age/sex but many dogs will be naturally under/over weight compared to another animal and your vet has assured you that he is healthy and within the normal weight range so don't worry about this.
How often do you exercise him? In my experience, a Spaniel will need at least, and I emphasize at least, 3 walks a day for an hour minimum each time with a routine of training interlaced with a bit of 'free' time (some will need more!), in order to get them to a level of training that you are suggesting you wish to achieve.
Stick with it and you will have a great dog but they do like to test you to the limit!!
You seem to be targetting a bodyweight according to age/sex but many dogs will be naturally under/over weight compared to another animal and your vet has assured you that he is healthy and within the normal weight range so don't worry about this.
How often do you exercise him? In my experience, a Spaniel will need at least, and I emphasize at least, 3 walks a day for an hour minimum each time with a routine of training interlaced with a bit of 'free' time (some will need more!), in order to get them to a level of training that you are suggesting you wish to achieve.
Stick with it and you will have a great dog but they do like to test you to the limit!!
I had an ESS as a kid. An amazing dog, bonkers endurance. The distance he covered when off the leash was insane. Everything you have described was also true. Occasionally he would go into a really crazy mode, where he would sprint laps of our house, growling to himself the whole time, like he was in a high speed trance.
We've got working cocker who was very similar when young and was definitely under weight and we could just not fatten him up. We also fed Millie's due to it being good quality food and recommended however if we tried to feed more his poos were just extremely loose as he could not process the extra which is also not good for them. We tried a few different varieties of Millies as well after speaking to their nutritionist but none seemed to be any better.
Eventually switched to raw in desperation and he quickly started to put weight on and had nice solid poos again. Really made a difference with him and although he's still lean he's put on a couple of kg and is much healthier and has a great coat as well. Might be worth a try.
Eventually switched to raw in desperation and he quickly started to put weight on and had nice solid poos again. Really made a difference with him and although he's still lean he's put on a couple of kg and is much healthier and has a great coat as well. Might be worth a try.
We rescued an ess many years ago and he was adorable. Called him Steve. Problem is, without any warning or provocation whatsoever he would just snap and try to kill our other dog Pete. Pete had been around a few years already.
So, for Pete's sake, we had to re-home Steve. Sad to see him go but he ended up in a great home, on his own.
So yeah, springers are bloody lovely, but my god, they are f
king wired up differently than most other dogs.
So, for Pete's sake, we had to re-home Steve. Sad to see him go but he ended up in a great home, on his own.
So yeah, springers are bloody lovely, but my god, they are f
king wired up differently than most other dogs.Think the weight of you dog is about right. Too many people think that if they can see the odd ribs, the dog needs beefing up which you then end up with a fat dog and taking weight off is far harder then putting it on.
Spaniels need mental stimulation especially when out on a walk as they tend to do their own thing which is usually in different postcode to you. It's just a spaniel thing whether it's a cocker or a springer.
They are all mental but if he has a high prey drive you can use this to your advantage.
When out and about with him try to teach him to quarter (hunt) this give him something fun to do. My cocker loves tennis balls so teaching her involved chucking tennis balls about 10/15 feet away from me so she has to go from side to side to find them. Trick here is to do it when they aren't looking. It can be very frustrating but it's really rewarding when you can nail it. It also has the added benefit of them being close to you as well. Your really have to encourage the dog to follow you at first, basically you are quartering the ground with him. So run from side to chucking the odd tennis ball so he can find it and give praise constantly. Make it all a big game and he will soon get the hang of it.
Have you taught him the stop command? Hard to do with a spaniel but it can be a life saver at times if you can nail it. Get your trainer to teach you this. IT's too hard to explain how to do it and different dogs need different tricks to get them to do it. What I found was if I told my dog to sit and walk away for a short distance then call her it seemed to sink in. I can now stop her as long as she can hear the whistle.
If you can do both these things then you can combine them both so he hunts, stops on a dime, then chuck him a ball or something to fetch.
Also see if you can teach him blind retrieves. My spaniel loves this as you work together and it's great fun.
In short go to www.gundogtrainingforum.co.uk and just browse through.
PS
Best dogs ever are spaniels. Have fun and remember that the rules are there to be tested by it every 5 seconds
Spaniels need mental stimulation especially when out on a walk as they tend to do their own thing which is usually in different postcode to you. It's just a spaniel thing whether it's a cocker or a springer.
They are all mental but if he has a high prey drive you can use this to your advantage.
When out and about with him try to teach him to quarter (hunt) this give him something fun to do. My cocker loves tennis balls so teaching her involved chucking tennis balls about 10/15 feet away from me so she has to go from side to side to find them. Trick here is to do it when they aren't looking. It can be very frustrating but it's really rewarding when you can nail it. It also has the added benefit of them being close to you as well. Your really have to encourage the dog to follow you at first, basically you are quartering the ground with him. So run from side to chucking the odd tennis ball so he can find it and give praise constantly. Make it all a big game and he will soon get the hang of it.
Have you taught him the stop command? Hard to do with a spaniel but it can be a life saver at times if you can nail it. Get your trainer to teach you this. IT's too hard to explain how to do it and different dogs need different tricks to get them to do it. What I found was if I told my dog to sit and walk away for a short distance then call her it seemed to sink in. I can now stop her as long as she can hear the whistle.
If you can do both these things then you can combine them both so he hunts, stops on a dime, then chuck him a ball or something to fetch.
Also see if you can teach him blind retrieves. My spaniel loves this as you work together and it's great fun.
In short go to www.gundogtrainingforum.co.uk and just browse through.
PS
Best dogs ever are spaniels. Have fun and remember that the rules are there to be tested by it every 5 seconds
Kawasicki said:
I had an ESS as a kid. An amazing dog, bonkers endurance. The distance he covered when off the leash was insane. Everything you have described was also true. Occasionally he would go into a really crazy mode, where he would sprint laps of our house, growling to himself the whole time, like he was in a high speed trance.
This. Whenever we visit our friends place and gets out their back garden, he does this. Super tight, full-tilt sprints while barking to himself. Its hilarious, and I assume just a great way to let off steam.My thought was maybe he is from a particularly lean working line, as I can spot the big differences between show and working cockers. I just wasn't aware if this was a thing for Springers - I just assumed they were all basically much of a muchness. I know his father was KC reg, mother was not, but don't have any details.
Exercise wise, he goes out with my wife for an hour in the morning, where he gets walked to a park. The walk to the park he is on the lead and getting trained to walk to heel, so lots of stop/start. Once in the park he's on the halti because the allure of the bushes and trees, doves and squirrels saps all his concentration for any training. Dog walker takes him out with around 6 dogs in the afternoon for 90 mins, although he's stuck on the lead because of his chase instincts, and at night I take him out for half an hour to do more leash walking training (try to keep it short so he doesn't get bored). He only gets fed while out training, so all his meals are served "on foot" if you like, so we are building his focus on us when out and about, but the distractions come thick and fast.
He's calm enough in the house for the most part, and we're pretty content his exercise needs are being met - he'll happily snooze away as soon dinner has been served and he realises there's no scraps to go to him. It just seemed like he was maybe a bit both physically and mentally immature, but good to know that folk have experienced extended "teenage" periods. That really does feel like that's what he's going through.
We're in a flat just now, but have just bought a new house with a garden, which we move to next week, so I'm hoping by being able to spend as much time running about outdoors as he likes from now on, the whole overwhelming rush he gets from being outside starts to subside and we can achieve a lot more in recall training next Spring/Summer.
Never you mind said:
Think the weight of you dog is about right. Too many people think that if they can see the odd ribs, the dog needs beefing up which you then end up with a fat dog and taking weight off is far harder then putting it on.
Spaniels need mental stimulation especially when out on a walk as they tend to do their own thing which is usually in different postcode to you. It's just a spaniel thing whether it's a cocker or a springer.
They are all mental but if he has a high prey drive you can use this to your advantage.
When out and about with him try to teach him to quarter (hunt) this give him something fun to do. My cocker loves tennis balls so teaching her involved chucking tennis balls about 10/15 feet away from me so she has to go from side to side to find them. Trick here is to do it when they aren't looking. It can be very frustrating but it's really rewarding when you can nail it. It also has the added benefit of them being close to you as well. Your really have to encourage the dog to follow you at first, basically you are quartering the ground with him. So run from side to chucking the odd tennis ball so he can find it and give praise constantly. Make it all a big game and he will soon get the hang of it.
Have you taught him the stop command? Hard to do with a spaniel but it can be a life saver at times if you can nail it. Get your trainer to teach you this. IT's too hard to explain how to do it and different dogs need different tricks to get them to do it. What I found was if I told my dog to sit and walk away for a short distance then call her it seemed to sink in. I can now stop her as long as she can hear the whistle.
If you can do both these things then you can combine them both so he hunts, stops on a dime, then chuck him a ball or something to fetch.
Also see if you can teach him blind retrieves. My spaniel loves this as you work together and it's great fun.
In short go to www.gundogtrainingforum.co.uk and just browse through.
PS
Best dogs ever are spaniels. Have fun and remember that the rules are there to be tested by it every 5 seconds
This is all stuff I'm keen to do - and our trainer, who was also trains gundogs - recommended all of it. We intend to take him to his gundog classes eventually as we love the idea of tapping into the breed instincts and using them, but no interest in using him on an actual hunt. We've dabbled in all of this stuff, but he's too unreliable as his focus on us just isn't there yet, so we've gone right back to basics, with the hope of coming back to it once he's behaving himself a bit more.Spaniels need mental stimulation especially when out on a walk as they tend to do their own thing which is usually in different postcode to you. It's just a spaniel thing whether it's a cocker or a springer.
They are all mental but if he has a high prey drive you can use this to your advantage.
When out and about with him try to teach him to quarter (hunt) this give him something fun to do. My cocker loves tennis balls so teaching her involved chucking tennis balls about 10/15 feet away from me so she has to go from side to side to find them. Trick here is to do it when they aren't looking. It can be very frustrating but it's really rewarding when you can nail it. It also has the added benefit of them being close to you as well. Your really have to encourage the dog to follow you at first, basically you are quartering the ground with him. So run from side to chucking the odd tennis ball so he can find it and give praise constantly. Make it all a big game and he will soon get the hang of it.
Have you taught him the stop command? Hard to do with a spaniel but it can be a life saver at times if you can nail it. Get your trainer to teach you this. IT's too hard to explain how to do it and different dogs need different tricks to get them to do it. What I found was if I told my dog to sit and walk away for a short distance then call her it seemed to sink in. I can now stop her as long as she can hear the whistle.
If you can do both these things then you can combine them both so he hunts, stops on a dime, then chuck him a ball or something to fetch.
Also see if you can teach him blind retrieves. My spaniel loves this as you work together and it's great fun.
In short go to www.gundogtrainingforum.co.uk and just browse through.
PS
Best dogs ever are spaniels. Have fun and remember that the rules are there to be tested by it every 5 seconds
He's trained to recall to the whistle, but we didn't quite crack "stop". Dog wasn't get it all, but the trainer showed me another good way during our last training class where you use a long line around a fence post/whatever so it doubles back toward you. You can put distance between yourself and the dog, and when called you can physically stop him on his way by stepping on the line, and start to pair that with the cue. Haven't put it into practice yet but I'm certain it will work with this dog, as he's good at learning that way.
The other problem I have is he's not that interested in balls or toys when out in a nice big park just now. He'd much rather just disappear beating through cover. But when we do get him switched on, we've nailed it so that he doesn't automatically chase the ball - he looks to me to tell him to run in or get on before he does, which is great. I just need to transfer this to birds and rodents and we'll be laughing, but its so hard to do because I can't "set up" a squirrel encounter repeatedly to make a training opportunity out of it.
Really loving all the comments guys. I suppose its now becoming a bit of a training advice thread, which I'm delighted with, but you have all provided the reassurance that we're not experiencing anything well out of the ordinary which I was originally looking for!
My ESS was a nuisance at a similar age. The heaviest he got was 17kg and ribs were visible. But as someone above mentioned, you have the working spaniel and the show spaniel. Working spaniels are smaller.
Your dog is at the adolescent stage when they can rebel. Just carry on doing what you are and they will grow out of it...not completely though. They will always be nutty!
Mine was diagnosed with chronic heart failure at 5 and was given a year to live. He's still running around and behaving like a lunatic at 11.
Your dog is at the adolescent stage when they can rebel. Just carry on doing what you are and they will grow out of it...not completely though. They will always be nutty!
Mine was diagnosed with chronic heart failure at 5 and was given a year to live. He's still running around and behaving like a lunatic at 11.
Have a look at this video;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACbnSymHXJU
And get yourself a lunge line, take the advice from 'never you mind' above, and give him more freedom and mental stimulation. Spaniels are full of energy and need to be exercised either offlead or on a long line otherwise they just get bored and will make their own entertainment! My first ESS 'worked' the ground for 3 1/2 days in the Fells before he finally had enough and was happy to walk to heel back home!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACbnSymHXJU
And get yourself a lunge line, take the advice from 'never you mind' above, and give him more freedom and mental stimulation. Spaniels are full of energy and need to be exercised either offlead or on a long line otherwise they just get bored and will make their own entertainment! My first ESS 'worked' the ground for 3 1/2 days in the Fells before he finally had enough and was happy to walk to heel back home!
I'm not an ESS owner, I have a 12 month old Large Munsterlander, but the behaviours you're describing are what we're experienced. The answers from more experienced owners are comforting, so thank you all.
(We don't get so much of the indoor or garden based "zoomies" as when she was a pup, but she spent half an hour running back and forth along the river chasing the swallows who were out catching bugs. She slept well that night.)
(We don't get so much of the indoor or garden based "zoomies" as when she was a pup, but she spent half an hour running back and forth along the river chasing the swallows who were out catching bugs. She slept well that night.)
I suppose I should show an obligatory photo of the gremlin in question:
Here he is when Flight Mode has been switched on.
Here he is when Flight Mode has been switched on.
louiebaby said:
I'm not an ESS owner, I have a 12 month old Large Munsterlander,
We stayed down at an AirBnB in Cumbria a few weeks ago and the owner had a lovely big old Munsterlander. He was awesome!
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