My dog Beth. Seizures.
Discussion
My 9 year old dog Beth ( bluffed her way into a Collie sanctuary, displays Collie behaviour, has the appearance of a Jack Russell on stilts ), suffered a form of fit 2 months ago. My previous dog ( full on Border Collie ) contracted epilepsy at 7, and it's fair to say that for the following 5 years her life and ours underwent fundamental changes.
After getting to the vets asap following this initial episode with Beth, we agreed to do nothing immediately on the basis that it was possibly an isolated incident. Sadly, this has turned out not to be the case, and she had another the night before last, with the vet now suggesting the possibility of having to accept that it may be the gradual onset of a brain tumour.
My previous dog would have fairly prolonged fits, she would thrash and froth at the mouth, with Beth she becomes rigid, it lasts for approximately a minute, then she stares around the room as if she's blind. 15 mins later, you wouldn't know anything had happened, she recovers seemingly in full very quickly.
I'm mentioning it on here in the hope that someone who's had the experience of having to cope with this has had a positive outcome. My last dog died during a fit. I'm very much hoping that this behaviour is not going to end up with me losing Beth prematurely.
After getting to the vets asap following this initial episode with Beth, we agreed to do nothing immediately on the basis that it was possibly an isolated incident. Sadly, this has turned out not to be the case, and she had another the night before last, with the vet now suggesting the possibility of having to accept that it may be the gradual onset of a brain tumour.
My previous dog would have fairly prolonged fits, she would thrash and froth at the mouth, with Beth she becomes rigid, it lasts for approximately a minute, then she stares around the room as if she's blind. 15 mins later, you wouldn't know anything had happened, she recovers seemingly in full very quickly.
I'm mentioning it on here in the hope that someone who's had the experience of having to cope with this has had a positive outcome. My last dog died during a fit. I'm very much hoping that this behaviour is not going to end up with me losing Beth prematurely.
garythesign said:
I hope Bex may post something positive for you
Having lost a dog at a similar age my heart goes out to you.
good luck
Thanks for posting. I don't own anything I wouldn't sell or remortgage if necessary to keep her alive and well. I'm hoping to deal with it in the early stages if it isn't already too far advanced. Sorry to read about your own dog, been there so know how it is.Having lost a dog at a similar age my heart goes out to you.
good luck
I am sorry to hear about Beth.
This is an awful scenario to deal with. Having lost our Jimmy at the same age to an incurable degenerative disease I know how distressing it can be.
It comes down to a very basic but fundamental question. What is her quality of life?
Treatments for brain tumours generally don't tend to be much different from treating epilepsy because it is usually managing the fits, however a treatment called gabapentin is sometimes used I believe to help if there is any head pain.
I don't know your finances but has an MRI been suggested to try and get confirmation of the vets decisions. This can be useful it won't change an outcome if it is a brain tumour but it can help obviously confirm diagnosis and maybe give some info as to what to expect depending on where it is etc. Also they may find it isn't a tumour and maybe a referral vet will have other suggestions but that is hard to know. Personally I would definitely want to go down this route if I could.
If you decide against this route (which is fine as well) then you can only treat the symptoms with the help of the vet.
My golden rule that I follow myself and always tell clients in a similar dilemma is when you are faced with a terminal illness in your four legged friend, making that decision a few days early is better than a few days late.
In the case of my Jimmy he was given 3-6 months from diagnosis, with physio, hydro and massage he made it to the 6 months but at that point I said goodbye to him. It was the hardest thing I had ever done because he was 9, it still didn't seem real and potentially he could have existed for longer but it was just existing, he could no longer go for walks, he fell a lot (and I was frightened he would break a leg etc) and his quality of life had reduced to sleeping and stumbling around the garden, his appetite was variable. He was not likely to be in pain (more a numbness) but it turned out that wasn't enough of a reason to keep him alive at that point.
I guess I am telling you all this in the hope it will make that time when it comes a little clearer, never feel bad for trying to do your best for your four legged friend when faced with such an awful situation re their health.
I hope she can stay well for a while yet, her fits are very quick and recovery is quick so that is a good thing, hopefully my above advice won't be needed for a long while yet! take care.
ETA - I assume heart has been thoroughly checked?
This is an awful scenario to deal with. Having lost our Jimmy at the same age to an incurable degenerative disease I know how distressing it can be.
It comes down to a very basic but fundamental question. What is her quality of life?
Treatments for brain tumours generally don't tend to be much different from treating epilepsy because it is usually managing the fits, however a treatment called gabapentin is sometimes used I believe to help if there is any head pain.
I don't know your finances but has an MRI been suggested to try and get confirmation of the vets decisions. This can be useful it won't change an outcome if it is a brain tumour but it can help obviously confirm diagnosis and maybe give some info as to what to expect depending on where it is etc. Also they may find it isn't a tumour and maybe a referral vet will have other suggestions but that is hard to know. Personally I would definitely want to go down this route if I could.
If you decide against this route (which is fine as well) then you can only treat the symptoms with the help of the vet.
My golden rule that I follow myself and always tell clients in a similar dilemma is when you are faced with a terminal illness in your four legged friend, making that decision a few days early is better than a few days late.
In the case of my Jimmy he was given 3-6 months from diagnosis, with physio, hydro and massage he made it to the 6 months but at that point I said goodbye to him. It was the hardest thing I had ever done because he was 9, it still didn't seem real and potentially he could have existed for longer but it was just existing, he could no longer go for walks, he fell a lot (and I was frightened he would break a leg etc) and his quality of life had reduced to sleeping and stumbling around the garden, his appetite was variable. He was not likely to be in pain (more a numbness) but it turned out that wasn't enough of a reason to keep him alive at that point.
I guess I am telling you all this in the hope it will make that time when it comes a little clearer, never feel bad for trying to do your best for your four legged friend when faced with such an awful situation re their health.
I hope she can stay well for a while yet, her fits are very quick and recovery is quick so that is a good thing, hopefully my above advice won't be needed for a long while yet! take care.
ETA - I assume heart has been thoroughly checked?
Edited by bexVN on Thursday 19th April 08:18
Edited by bexVN on Thursday 19th April 08:19
Edited by bexVN on Thursday 19th April 08:25
bexVN said:
I am sorry to hear about Beth.
This is an awful scenario to deal with. Having lost our Jimmy at the same age to an incurable degenerative disease I know how distressing it can be.
It comes down to a very basic but fundamental question. What is her quality of life?
Treatments for brain tumours generally don't tend to be much different from treating epilepsy because it is usually managing the fits, however a treatment called gabapentin is sometimes used I believe to help if there is any head pain.
I don't know your finances but has an MRI been suggested to try and get confirmation of the vets decisions. This can be useful it won't change an outcome if it is a brain tumour but it can help obviously confirm diagnosis and maybe give some info as to what to expect depending on where it is etc. Also they may find it isn't a tumour and maybe a referral vet will have other suggestions but that is hard to know. Personally I would definitely want to go down this route if I could.
If you decide against this route (which is fine as well) then you can only treat the symptoms with the help of the vet.
My golden rule that I follow myself and always tell clients in a similar dilemma is when you are faced with a terminal illness in your four legged friend, making that decision a few days early is better than a few days late.
In the case of my Jimmy he was given 3-6 months from diagnosis, with physio, hydro and massage he made it to the 6 months but at that point I said goodbye to him. It was the hardest thing I had ever done because he was 9, it still didn't seem real and potentially he could have existed for longer but it was just existing, he could no longer go for walks, he fell a lot (and I was frightened he would break a leg etc) and his quality of life had reduced to sleeping and stumbling around the garden, his appetite was variable. He was not likely to be in pain (more a numbness) but it turned out that wasn't enough of a reason to keep him alive at that point.
I guess I am telling you all this in the hope it will make that time when it comes a little clearer, never feel bad for trying to do your best for your four legged friend when faced with such an awful situation re their health.
I hope she can stay well for a while yet, her fits are very quick and recovery is quick so that is a good thing, hopefully my above advice won't be needed for a long while yet! take care.
ETA - I assume heart has been thoroughly checked?
Hi, and thanks very much for taking the time to write such a detailed reply.This is an awful scenario to deal with. Having lost our Jimmy at the same age to an incurable degenerative disease I know how distressing it can be.
It comes down to a very basic but fundamental question. What is her quality of life?
Treatments for brain tumours generally don't tend to be much different from treating epilepsy because it is usually managing the fits, however a treatment called gabapentin is sometimes used I believe to help if there is any head pain.
I don't know your finances but has an MRI been suggested to try and get confirmation of the vets decisions. This can be useful it won't change an outcome if it is a brain tumour but it can help obviously confirm diagnosis and maybe give some info as to what to expect depending on where it is etc. Also they may find it isn't a tumour and maybe a referral vet will have other suggestions but that is hard to know. Personally I would definitely want to go down this route if I could.
If you decide against this route (which is fine as well) then you can only treat the symptoms with the help of the vet.
My golden rule that I follow myself and always tell clients in a similar dilemma is when you are faced with a terminal illness in your four legged friend, making that decision a few days early is better than a few days late.
In the case of my Jimmy he was given 3-6 months from diagnosis, with physio, hydro and massage he made it to the 6 months but at that point I said goodbye to him. It was the hardest thing I had ever done because he was 9, it still didn't seem real and potentially he could have existed for longer but it was just existing, he could no longer go for walks, he fell a lot (and I was frightened he would break a leg etc) and his quality of life had reduced to sleeping and stumbling around the garden, his appetite was variable. He was not likely to be in pain (more a numbness) but it turned out that wasn't enough of a reason to keep him alive at that point.
I guess I am telling you all this in the hope it will make that time when it comes a little clearer, never feel bad for trying to do your best for your four legged friend when faced with such an awful situation re their health.
I hope she can stay well for a while yet, her fits are very quick and recovery is quick so that is a good thing, hopefully my above advice won't be needed for a long while yet! take care.
ETA - I assume heart has been thoroughly checked?
Edited by bexVN on Thursday 19th April 08:18
Edited by bexVN on Thursday 19th April 08:19
Edited by bexVN on Thursday 19th April 08:25
As things stand, her quality of life seems completely unaffected. If I hadn't witnessed them myself, I'd never have known she'd had the fits, her day to day life and behaviour remain generally as they ever were. She's insured up to 10k, and reaching that limit wouldn't prevent further uninsured expenditure if it meant her life could be extended without overly compromising it.
I don't know how relevant it is, but the mention you make of something your dog was doing has made me think about it. On and off for a few weeks before the first fit, Beth was very restless in the night, roaming about the room and unwilling to settle. We just couldn't understand why this might be, as she generally loves her sleep. When one or other of us is away, there's space on our bed for her to sleep, which she does, and we wondered if she was just annoyed at having to sleep back in her own bed when we were both at home, but perhaps there's more to it.
The vet checked her foot reflexes ( turning the paw under ) the reactions to which seemed normal, they did a physical examination of her spine, again, seemingly nothing out of the ordinary. We've come away at the moment seemingly not much further forward about the cause other than with the suggestion that it's cranial, and to make the decision about scans, which is something I'm considering having done in the near future for exactly the reasons you suggest. We were generally very happy with the attitude and advice we received from the vet who treated Beth.
I believe her heart was checked, but there was no discussion about it, it hadn't crossed my mind that it may have any bearing on the cause, tbh, which is naive possibly.
Very sorry to read about the experience you had with Jimmy, I'm extremely attached to Beth, so I can imagine how it was for you. We've been through it once already with our previous dog, to have to come to terms with the fact that it's going to be two dogs in a row being struck with the same scenario is something I find extremely depressing. As things stand, I don't see anything imminent to suggest we may lose her in the short term, but I'm aware of how quickly things can deteriorate.
Thanks again for your reply, it's much appreciated.
I wonder if she had a TIA that night? It may be worth mentioning. They can be a pre cursor to a stroke incident and often not that noticeable but it could be significant. Strokes are not common in dogs, they tend to get vestibular incidents which look similar to strokes but it is a different condition. However dogs can have strokes so they can get TIA's.
"A transient ischemic attack (TIA) happens when blood flow to part of the brain is blocked or reduced , often by a blood clot. After a short time, blood flows again and the symptoms go away. With a stroke, the blood flow stays blocked, and the brain has permanent damage"
This is all speculation on my part, just trying to offer some alternatives.
A vestibular is
"A transient ischemic attack (TIA) happens when blood flow to part of the brain is blocked or reduced , often by a blood clot. After a short time, blood flows again and the symptoms go away. With a stroke, the blood flow stays blocked, and the brain has permanent damage"
This is all speculation on my part, just trying to offer some alternatives.
A vestibular is
bexVN said:
I wonder if she had a TIA that night? It may be worth mentioning. They can be a pre cursor to a stroke incident and often not that noticeable but it could be significant. Strokes are not common in dogs, they tend to get vestibular incidents which look similar to strokes but it is a different condition. However dogs can have strokes so they can get TIA's.
"A transient ischemic attack (TIA) happens when blood flow to part of the brain is blocked or reduced , often by a blood clot. After a short time, blood flows again and the symptoms go away. With a stroke, the blood flow stays blocked, and the brain has permanent damage"
This is all speculation on my part, just trying to offer some alternatives.
A vestibular is
Hi, are there any tests to ask for where an incidence of TIA could be investigated? As things stand, she hasn't displayed any behaviour indicative of permanent damage. I'm open to any suggestions as to how to proceed to prevent it if we are still at an early enough stage to do so."A transient ischemic attack (TIA) happens when blood flow to part of the brain is blocked or reduced , often by a blood clot. After a short time, blood flows again and the symptoms go away. With a stroke, the blood flow stays blocked, and the brain has permanent damage"
This is all speculation on my part, just trying to offer some alternatives.
A vestibular is
If it helps, we were alerted to the possibility of vestibular dystrophy being a cause after the first fit, but she hasn't displayed what I understand to be regarded as classic symptoms of that in any form.
Thanks again, it seems there are more possibilities to consider than I was aware of.
bexVN said:
Honestly I am not sure about checking for Tia's. Maybe an mri could pick up damage to blood vessels but I don't know enough to comment with any certainty on that.
Sorry about that last half finished sentence, I thought I had deleted it!!
Thanks. No worries about the half finished bits, grateful for any input. I'll speak to the vet again when I'm back home. Cheers, Andy.Sorry about that last half finished sentence, I thought I had deleted it!!
SPR2 said:
A 12 year old spaniel I look after had a fit one Saturday morning, 2 on the Monday morning and another at the vets that afternoon and 3 months on has had no more.
I hope Beth has had no more fits as she is a lovely dog.
Thanks for posting that, I'm obviously looking for anything positive to cling on to at the mo. I honestly can't imagine a life without her. I know, ridiculous, life has to go on.I hope Beth has had no more fits as she is a lovely dog.
Thought I'd update this, as it's been a while. I'm becoming cautiously optimistic that this may not be the horror show I feared it would develop into. As I posted early on in the thread, Beth had a couple of seizures, the first in the middle of February, the second almost 2 months to the day later. To date, she's had no more, so almost 4 months now.
No explanation that holds any water for this behaviour,but I'll take whatever positives I can get. I managed to get a pic of her today in a rare combination of looking both slim and intelligent!
No explanation that holds any water for this behaviour,but I'll take whatever positives I can get. I managed to get a pic of her today in a rare combination of looking both slim and intelligent!
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