Discussion
Hello All,
My Scottish terrier is just over a year old and his first vaccinations are approaching their anniversary too. I've read differing opinions as to if its good/bad or indifferent to return to the vet and get a set of boosters. One opinion is that if you don't intend to make use of kennels then it is generally safe and may even be beneficial to not bother. Something tells me that the vet might disagree but some might say its in their interest to say so.....so wondering is any PHers have any experience or opinion here?
Thanks!
My Scottish terrier is just over a year old and his first vaccinations are approaching their anniversary too. I've read differing opinions as to if its good/bad or indifferent to return to the vet and get a set of boosters. One opinion is that if you don't intend to make use of kennels then it is generally safe and may even be beneficial to not bother. Something tells me that the vet might disagree but some might say its in their interest to say so.....so wondering is any PHers have any experience or opinion here?
Thanks!
As you will have seen, this is a contentious subject.
I have one dog who is not vaccinated, on veterinary advice, due to an immune disorder. However, my other three dogs are vaccinated annually, as were the previous nine.
Personally, I couldn't live with myself if one of my dogs contracted an illness I could have vaccinated against, and I also feel that there is an element of 'herd immunity' which I am responsible for doing my best to maintain.
It worries me that fewer people are vaccinating their dogs these days.
It's all very well suggesting that medicines kill. Of course they do - most (if not all) medicines have an adverse reaction in some people or animals. That doesn't make them inherently bad. I'm allergic to penicillin so can't take it - do I think it should be banned? Of course not!
I have one dog who is not vaccinated, on veterinary advice, due to an immune disorder. However, my other three dogs are vaccinated annually, as were the previous nine.
Personally, I couldn't live with myself if one of my dogs contracted an illness I could have vaccinated against, and I also feel that there is an element of 'herd immunity' which I am responsible for doing my best to maintain.
It worries me that fewer people are vaccinating their dogs these days.
It's all very well suggesting that medicines kill. Of course they do - most (if not all) medicines have an adverse reaction in some people or animals. That doesn't make them inherently bad. I'm allergic to penicillin so can't take it - do I think it should be banned? Of course not!
moorx said:
Personally, I couldn't live with myself if one of my dogs contracted an illness I could have vaccinated against, and I also feel that there is an element of 'herd immunity' which I am responsible for doing my best to maintain.
Perhaps you need to undertake further research. Again, read the WSAVA Guidlines (World Small Animal Veterinary Assc).Usually a full course is done as a puppy. First year vacc is a full booster then the next couple years is just against lepto and /or kennel cough (which is usually optional) before another full vaccine is given.
Titer testing is an alterative and better than just not vaccinating but it is not a guaranteed failsafe either.
Not vaccinating can restrict your options re doggy daycare etc and can impact on insurance. Herd immunity will be weakened if people stop vaccinating and unfortunately I know many won't be responsible enough to check their dogs with titer testing.
It is not straightforward. WSAVA are guidelines only for many different countries. Core and non core vaccines have different protocols.
The Vet has to follow the recognised Data and are at risk of litigation if they advise off licence.
Here is a link. It is a lot of reading and there are lots of variables with the wsava themselves making a point that they offer guidelines only.
Click on the top pdf download and start at page E4
http://www.wsava.org/guidelines/vaccination-guidel...
Titer testing is an alterative and better than just not vaccinating but it is not a guaranteed failsafe either.
Not vaccinating can restrict your options re doggy daycare etc and can impact on insurance. Herd immunity will be weakened if people stop vaccinating and unfortunately I know many won't be responsible enough to check their dogs with titer testing.
It is not straightforward. WSAVA are guidelines only for many different countries. Core and non core vaccines have different protocols.
The Vet has to follow the recognised Data and are at risk of litigation if they advise off licence.
Here is a link. It is a lot of reading and there are lots of variables with the wsava themselves making a point that they offer guidelines only.
Click on the top pdf download and start at page E4
http://www.wsava.org/guidelines/vaccination-guidel...
Jasandjules said:
Read the WSAVA Guidelines. You will see annual vaccines are not necessary at all. It appears from the data that in fact they kill many animals.
I'm sorry but I have to say this is rubbish, complete and utter rubbish, I have been a vet for over 30 years and have yet to hear one single report about annual vaccination killing any single animal. I do believe that annual vaccination is unnecessary for all diseases, but I vaccinate all my dogs every year due to the risk of me bringing some hint of parvo or distemper home, and my dogs can walk through our surgery with no fear of picking up any disease that could be prevented. I cannot believe that anyone would have confidence about disease prevention without vaccination, perhaps you should remember the outbreak of parvo and the struggles of the pet/vet/vaccine companies to react effectively to this. Maybe you haven't seen a case of parvo? It is not something you will forget visually or nasally. At least the dog population seems to be gradually developing some resistane to the mortality of the disease if not the morbidity, rather like myxomatosis.
Anyway, for those that want to use herbal, homeopathic or other health ideas to prevent disease, consider the problems facing the world community when drugs start to fail, vaccination against such simple things as C. difficile are surely our only hope verses disease, and vaccination has dramatically shrunk the incidence of Parvo Distemper Hepatitis and Lepto.
Shoot me down if you so wish but I would bet my life (serious but true) that I could walk my dog past a case of parvo and he won't catch it.....are you so confident?
http://www.petwelfarealliance.org/why-over-vaccina...
https://over-vaccination.net/questionable-vaccines...
https://caninehealthconcern.wordpress.com/2014/03/...
The last one has enough references to keep people busy for a week.
As to your question, yes I am that confident indeed.
https://over-vaccination.net/questionable-vaccines...
https://caninehealthconcern.wordpress.com/2014/03/...
The last one has enough references to keep people busy for a week.
As to your question, yes I am that confident indeed.
Edited by Jasandjules on Wednesday 18th April 21:17
Jasandjules said:
internet experts, internet experts,internet experts,internet experts,internet experts,internet experts,internet experts,
Sorry but I would go with the advice of a practising vet rather than any number of internet experts. You may recall the damage that can be done with scare stories about vaccines from the MMR furore?
Rumblestripe said:
Jasandjules said:
internet experts, internet experts,internet experts,internet experts,internet experts,internet experts,internet experts,
Sorry but I would go with the advice of a practising vet rather than any number of internet experts. You may recall the damage that can be done with scare stories about vaccines from the MMR furore?
Your MMR example was exactly what popped into my head when I started reading the tripe on here.
keirik said:
Rumblestripe said:
Jasandjules said:
internet experts, internet experts,internet experts,internet experts,internet experts,internet experts,internet experts,
Sorry but I would go with the advice of a practising vet rather than any number of internet experts. You may recall the damage that can be done with scare stories about vaccines from the MMR furore?
Your MMR example was exactly what popped into my head when I started reading the tripe on here.
Batleyred said:
bexVN said:
Would love to know how you were allowed to do this unless you are a vet?
Pretty easy really, there is a company in Ireland who sends vac's by post and with cards and stickers as if they has been at the vets. I did hear they had been caught out but unsure. Vets can prescribe vaccines to breeders etc but it is frowned upon and the vet is still supposed to only prescribe them to animals they have assessed as fit to have them, so for many it isn't worth the hassle of prescribing vaccines!
My question was really a dig as I know it is not that likely to have been done legitimately.
Edited by bexVN on Wednesday 25th April 17:48
FiF said:
To be honest when I read some of the tripe spouted by JandJ I think of this
Yeah to be fair there is no research to back up what I put. Well, except thisEncephalitis has been shown to appear in dogs after vaccination. (Grene, CE, ed, Appel MJ, Canine Distemper in Infectious Diseases of the Dog and Cat, 2nd edition, Philadelphia: WB Saunders, 1998: 9-22).
2. Veterinary Record 1992 (130, 27-30), AIP McCandlish et al: “Post-vaccinal encephalitis is a recognised complication of the administration of certain strains of live attenuated canine distemper vaccine (Hartley 1974, Bestetti and others 1978, Cornwell and others 1988)”.
3. Braund’s Clinical Neurology in Small Animals: Localisation, Diagnosis and Treatment:
“Post vaccinal canine distemper encephalitis occurs in young animals, especially those less than six months of age. It has been recognised as a disease entity for a number of years, and is believed to be association with vaccination using live virus. The pathogenesis of this disease is unclear, but may result from insufficient attenuation of the vaccine virus which causes subsequent infections of the CNS; the triggering of a latent distemper infection by vaccination; other vaccine components; or an enhanced susceptibility of the animal (e.g., animals that are immunosuppressed).”
4. Encephalitis following vaccination against distemper and infectious hepatitis in the dog. “A 4-months-old, male, healthy dog developed CNS-symptoms 10 days after the second vaccination with live, attenuated distemper and canine hepatitis virus.” G. Bestetti1, et al, Acta Neuropathologica Volume 43, Numbers 1-2 / 69-75 — 1/1/1978
5. Wilson RB, Holladay JA, Cave JS: A Neurologic Syndrome Associated with Use of a Canine Coronavirus-Parvovirus Vaccine in a Dog. Compend Contin Educ Pract Vet. February 1986; 8(2):117-124.
6. Protein glutamate is added to vaccines to preserve the virus in vaccines. Meat, fish eggs, milk and cheese tend to be high in protein glutamate. High levels of glutamic acid have been shown in animal studies to cause damage to parts of the brain unprotected by the blood-brain barrier, leading to a variety of chronic diseases http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15167034
7. “Experimental studies on paralysis after antirabies vaccination. I. Histological studies on acute demyelinating encephalomyelitis in guinea pigs.” Shiina T, et al, Jpn J Microbiol; 2(2):187-96. — 4/1/1958
8. “Clinical picture of postvaccinal encephalitis after rabies vaccination and sequelae.” Uchimaura Y, et al, Nervenarzt; 29(7): 303-7. — 7/1/1958
9. Myelin basic protein as an encephalitogen in encephalomyelitis and polyneuritis following rabies vaccination: “Encephalitis and polyneuritis occurring after rabies vaccination are believed to be immunologically mediated. We studied antibody responses to neural antigens in 36 patients with major neurologic complications, 25 with minor complications, and 39 with no complications after immunization with a brain-derived, Semple rabies vaccine.” T Hemachudha, et al, New England Journal of Medicine Volume 316:369-374 , Number 7 — 2/12/1987
10. Neurological adverse events associated with vaccination: “These complications include autism (measles vaccine), multiple sclerosis (hepatitis B vaccine), meningoencephalitis (Japanese encephalitis vaccine), Guillain-Barre syndrome and giant cell arteritis (influenza vaccine), and reactions after exposure to animal rabies vaccine. Seizures and hypotonic/hyporesponsive episodes following pertussis vaccination and potential risks associated with varicella vaccination, as well as vaccine-associated paralytic poliomyelitis following oral poliovirus vaccination, are also described.” Piyasirisilp, Sucheep a; Hemachudha, Thiravat b, Neurology. 15(3):333-338 — 6/1/2002
11. Acute disseminated encephalomyelitis: “T cell mediated autoimmune response to myelin basic protein, triggered by an infection or vaccination, underlies its pathogenesis ” R K Garg, Postgraduate Medical Journal; 79:11-17 — 1/1/2003
12. Neurologic complications of immunization. “Individual vaccines can produce systemic or neurologic reactions ranging from minor events, such as pain and erythema at the injection site, to major complications, such as seizures, shock, encephalopathy, or death.” Bale JF Jr, J Child Neurol.; 19(6): 405-12. — 6/1/2004
13. Merck: “In acute disseminated encephalomyelitis (post infectious encephalitis), demyelination can occur spontaneously, but usually follows a viral infection or inoculation (or very rarely a bacterial vaccine), suggesting an immunologic cause.”
14. “Expression and characterization of a low molecular weight recombinant human gelatin: development of a substitute for animal-derived gelatin with superior features.” “Gelatin is used as a stabilizer in several vaccines. Allergic reactions to gelatins have been reported, including anaphylaxis. These gelatins are derived from animal tissues and thus represent a potential source of contaminants that cause transmissible spongiform encephalopathies.” Olsen D, et al, Protein Expr Purif.; 40(2):346-57 — 4/1/2005
15. Ballerini, Rico B et al., Neurological Complications of Vaccination With Special Reference to Epileptic Syndrome Riview Neurol, Jul-Aug 1973; 43: 254-258.
16. Wisniewski, H.M.; Sturman, J.A.; Shek, J.W. Chronic model of neurofibrillary changes induced in mature rabbits by metallic aluminum. Neurobiol Aging. 1982, 3(1), 11-22.
17. Pendlebury, W.W.; Beal, M.F.; Kowall, N.W.; Solomon, P.R. Neuropathologic, neurochemical and immunocytochemical characteristics of aluminium. Neurology. 2008 May 6; 70(19):1672-7.
18. Petit, T.L.; Biederman, G.B.; McMullen, P.A. Neurofibrillary degeneration, dendritic dying back, and learning-memory deficits after aluminium administration: implications for brain aging. Exp Neurol. 1980, 67(1), 152-162.
19. Petrik, M.S.; Wong, M.C.; Tabata, R.C.; Garry, R.F.; Shaw, C.A. Aluminum adjuvant linked to Gulf War illness induces motor neuron death in mice. Neuromolecular Med. 2007, 9(1), 83-100.
20. Gherardi, R.K.; Coquet, M.; Cherin, P.; Belec, L.; Moretto, P.; Dreyfus, P.A.; Pellissier, J.F.; Chariot, P.; Authier, F.J. Macrophagic myofasciitis lesions assess long-term persistence of vaccine-derived aluminium hydroxide in muscle. Brain. 2001, 124(Pt 9), 1821-1831.
21. Shaw, C.A.; Petrik, M.S. Aluminum hydroxide injections lead to motor deficits and motor neuron degeneration. J Inorg Biochem. 2009, 103(11), 1555-1562.
22. Golub, M.S.; Gershwin, M.E.; Donald, J.M.; Negri, S.; Keen, C.L. Maternal and developmental toxicity of chronic aluminum exposure in mice. Fundam Appl Toxicol. 1987, 8(3), 346-357.
23. Redhead, K.; Quinlan, G.J.; Das, R.G.; Gutteridge, J.M. Aluminium adjuvanted vaccines transiently increase aluminium levels in murine brain tissue. Pharmacol Toxicol. 1992, 70(4), 278-280.
24. Struys-Ponsar, C.; Guillard, O.; van den Bosch de Aguilar, P. Effects of aluminum exposure on glutamate metabolism: a possible explanation for its toxicity. Exp Neurol. 2000, 163(1), 157-164.
25. Cohly, H.H.; Panja, A. Immunological findings in autism. Int Rev Neurobiol.2005, 71, 317-341.
26. Banks, W.A.; Kastin, A.J. Aluminum-induced neurotoxicity: alterations in membrane function at the blood-brain barrier. Neurosci Biobehav Rev. 1989, 13(1), 47-53.
27. Aluminum Vaccine Adjuvants: Are they Safe? L. Tomljenovic, and C.A. Shaw, Current Medicinal Chemistry, 2011, 18, 2630-2637 “Aluminium presented in this form carries a risk for autoimmunity, long-term brain inflammation and associated neurological complications and may thus have profound and widespread adverse health consequences.”
28. Department of Paediatrics, Tokyo Medical University, Japan, found the measles virus in patients with inflammatory bowel disease and autism. (Dig Dis Sci, 2000, Apri; 45(4) 723-9) . The sequences obtained from the patients with ulcerative colitis and children with autism were consistent with vaccine strains. It should be remembered that the measles virus and canine distemper are very closely related.
29. The question of encephalitis following vaccination was investigated by the League of Nations, and on August 27, 1928, the League published a report on the situation. The report stated: “The post-vaccinal encephalitis with which we are dealing has become a problem of itself . . . a new, or at least previously unsuspected or unrecognized risk attaches to vaccination. . . ”
30. The Journal of the American Medical Association on April 2, 1937: “A multiplicity of untoward sequelae have been observed in patients treated with immune serum…The common symptomatology includes fever, urticaria, erythema, oedema, lymphadenoma, artharaliga, smothering sensations, headache, nausea and vomiting. Occasionally there are more serious and lasting manifestations such as peripheral neuritis, epididymitis and orchitis.”
31. “The Smallpox Vaccine and Postvaccinal Encephalitis” “Before we become complacent with the idea that we will respond to a bioterrorism attack with a mass immunization program for smallpox, it is important to be reminded of the risk and clinical manifestations of postvaccinal encephalitis… The first case of postvaccinal encephalitis as a complication of the Jennerian cowpox inoculation was observed in 1905. A century later, there is no effective therapy.” Karen L. Roos, et al, Semin Neurol 22: 095-098 –1/1/2002
32. “Relapsing Neuropathy due to tetanus toxoid.” “Summary: A unique case history is presented of a 42-year-old patient who has suffered three episodes of a demyelinating neuropathy, each of which followed an injection of tetanus toxoid.” Pollard, JD; Selby, G, Journal of the Neurological Sciences, 1978, 37: 113-125 — 1/1/1900
33. “Etiology of acute encephalomyelitis after rabies vaccination.” Piskareva NA, Vopr Virusol; 1(6):47-50. — 11/1/1956
34. “Experimental studies on paralysis after antirabies vaccination. Histological studies on acute demyelinating encephalomyelitis in guinea pigs. Shiina T, et al, Jpn J Microbiol; 2(2):187-96. — 4/1/1958
35. “Clinical picture of postvaccinal encephalitis after rabies vaccination and sequelae.” Uchimaura Y, et al, Nervenarzt; 29(7): 303
36. “The management of meningoencephalitis following rabies vaccination” Klemm D, et al, Med Klin;63(34):1354. — 8/1/1968
37. “Relapsing encephalomyelitis following the use of influenza vaccine” Yahr MD and Lobo-Antunes, J, Arch Neurol. 27(2):182-3. — 8/1/1972
38. “Hyperacute Allergic Encephalomyelitis: A localised form produced by passive transfer and pertussis vaccine.” “Blockade of histamine H1 receptors may reduce mortality in pertussis immunisation-induced encephalopathy in mice.” Levine,S et al, American Journal of Pathology; 73:247-260 — 1/1/1973
39. “Murine model for pertussis vaccine encephalopathy: linkage to H−2” “Local, systemic and neurological complications have been observed following pertussis (whooping cough) vaccination in children. These often occur soon after primary or secondary immunization. The neurological syndrome ranges from minor irritability to convulsions, coma, and on rare occasions death.” L. Steinman, et al, Nature 299, 738 – 740 — 10/21/1982
40. “Acute necrotic myelopathy associated with influenza vaccination.” Graus F, et al, Lancet; 1(8545):1311-2. — 6/1/1987
41. “Myelin basic protein as an encephalitogen in encephalomyelitis and polyneuritis following rabies vaccination” “Encephalitis and polyneuritis occurring after rabies vaccination are believed to be immunologically mediated. We studied antibody responses to neural antigens in 36 patients with major neurologic complications, 25 with minor complications, and 39 with no complications after immunization with a brain-derived, Semple rabies vaccine.” T Hemachudha, et al, New Endland Hournal of Medicine Volume 316:369-374 , Number 7 — 2/12/1987
42. “Incidence of Subacute Sclerosing Panencephalitis Following Measles and Measles Vaccination in Japan” “The Japanese Committee for the National Registry of Subacute Sclerosing Panencephalitis (SSPE) confirmed that 215 cases of SSPE occurred” Yoshiomi Okuno, International Journal of Epidemiology Volume 18, Number 3 Pp. 684-689 — 10/1/1988
43. “Acute cerebellar ataxia after influenza vaccination with recurrence and marked cerebellar atrophy.” “A 5-year-old, previously healthy girl developed symptoms and signs of acute cerebellar ataxia (ACA) 8 days after having received an influenza vaccination.” Saito H, et al, Tohoku J Exp Med; 158(1): 95-103. — 5/1/1989
44. “Acute cerebellar ataxia and facial palsy after DPT immunization” “Since the initial report of Beyers & Moll (1948), numerous cases of seizures and encephalopathy after pertussis immunization or DPT immunization have been reported. We report a 1-year-11-month-old girl with acute cerebellar ataxia and facial palsy after DPT immunization.” Katafuchi Y, et al, No To Hattatsu. 21(5):465-9. — 9/1/1989
45. “Acute inflammatory demyelinating polyradiculoneuropathy (Guillain-Barre syndrome) after immunization with Haemophilus influenzae type b conjugate vaccine.” D’Cruz OF, et al, J Pediatr; 115(5 Pt 1):743-6. — 11/1/1989
46. Department of Neurology, Mayo Clinic Scottsdale, AZ 85259, USA. “Acute disseminated encephalomyelitis, an inflammatory demyelinating disease of the central nervous system, can occur after viral infections or vaccinations. We report the clinical and neuroimaging findings in a 52-year-old man in whom acute disseminated encephalomyelitis developed after accidental self-injection of an industrial hog vaccine. ” Dodick DW, et al, Mayo Clin Proc. 73(12):1193-5. — 12/1/1998
47. “Neurological adverse events associated with vaccination” “These complications include autism (measles vaccine), multiple sclerosis (hepatitis B vaccine), meningoencephalitis (Japanese encephalitis vaccine), Guillain-Barre syndrome and giant cell arteritis (influenza vaccine), and reactions after exposure to animal rabies vaccine. Seizures and hypotonic/hyporesponsive episodes following pertussis vaccination and potential risks associated with varicella vaccination, as well as vaccine-associated paralytic poliomyelitis following oral poliovirus vaccination, are also described.” Piyasirisilp, Sucheep a; Hemachudha, Thiravat b, Neurology. 15(3):333-338 — 6/1/2002
48. “Development of case definitions for acute encephalopathy, encephalitis, and multiple sclerosis reports to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System” “Acute encephalopathy age <18 months, encephalitis (EI), and multiple sclerosis (MS) after vaccination have been reported to VAERS” Robert Ball, et al, Journal of Clinical Epidemiology Volume 55, Issue 8, Pages 819-824 — 8/1/2002
49. “Postvaccinal inflammatory neuropathy: peripheral nerve biopsy in 3 cases” “Autoimmune inflammatory polyneuropathy (PN) can be triggered by vaccination. We report 3 such cases. A 36-year-old female nurse presented 15 days after a hepatitis B vaccination (HBV) with acute sensory disturbances in the lower limbs. She had severe ataxia but no weakness.” Claude Vital, et al, Journal of the Peripheral Nervous System Volume 7 Page 163 — 9/1/2002
50. “Acute disseminated encephalomyelitis” “A T cell mediated autoimmune response to myelin basic protein, triggered by an infection or vaccination, underlies its pathogenesis. ” R K Garg, Postgraduate Medical Journal; 79:11-17 — 1/1/2003
51. “Neurologic complications of immunization.” “Individual vaccines can produce systemic or neurologic reactions ranging from minor events, such as pain and erythema at the injection site, to major complications, such as seizures, shock, encephalopathy, or death.” Bale JF Jr, J Child Neurol.; 19(6): 405-12. — 6/1/2004
I am never going to debate with you JasandJules because I know you will always have your views on vaccines.
But honestly if my husband had the time he would be able break down all of these points into useful and common sense analysis and it would show just how low the % is of any of these reactions. Then he could balance it up with the risk of not vaccinating (spreadsheets, data collation and interpretation is part of his skill set!)
Even I can see that the numbers involved in these cases are incredibly low, 1 case here, 1 case there. Rare pops up. Some of the research is many many years old and things have moved on.
To the untrained eye these lists would frighten people into making ill informed choices.
Every drug, every natural/herbal (which are non regulated so won't have this data available, conveniently) remedy and practically every food type will have had people/animals reacting to them at some point or another and some of those reactions will kill.
In fact I am fairly certain that a food allergy reaction kills more people a year than a vaccine reaction does.
Grape toxicity has more deaths associated in dogs than vaccines do.
But honestly if my husband had the time he would be able break down all of these points into useful and common sense analysis and it would show just how low the % is of any of these reactions. Then he could balance it up with the risk of not vaccinating (spreadsheets, data collation and interpretation is part of his skill set!)
Even I can see that the numbers involved in these cases are incredibly low, 1 case here, 1 case there. Rare pops up. Some of the research is many many years old and things have moved on.
To the untrained eye these lists would frighten people into making ill informed choices.
Every drug, every natural/herbal (which are non regulated so won't have this data available, conveniently) remedy and practically every food type will have had people/animals reacting to them at some point or another and some of those reactions will kill.
In fact I am fairly certain that a food allergy reaction kills more people a year than a vaccine reaction does.
Grape toxicity has more deaths associated in dogs than vaccines do.
bexVN said:
I am never going to debate with you JasandJules because I know you will always have your views on vaccines.
But honestly if my husband had the time he would be able break down all of these points into useful and common sense analysis and it would show just how low the % is of any of these reactions. Then he could balance it up with the risk of not vaccinating (spreadsheets, data collation and interpretation is part of his skill set!)
Even I can see that the numbers involved in these cases are incredibly low, 1 case here, 1 case there. Rare pops up. Some of the research is many many years old and things have moved on.
To the untrained eye these lists would frighten people into making ill informed choices.
Every drug, every natural/herbal (which are non regulated so won't have this data available, conveniently) remedy and practically every food type will have had people/animals reacting to them at some point or another and some of those reactions will kill.
In fact I am fairly certain that a food allergy reaction kills more people a year than a vaccine reaction does.
Grape toxicity has more deaths associated in dogs than vaccines do.
Seconded, I have no patience with this bunkum, time after time those reports list a case, next report another case singular. It's the same with other scare mongering reports that pick up on these investigations and fire off on social media, areas besides veterinary.But honestly if my husband had the time he would be able break down all of these points into useful and common sense analysis and it would show just how low the % is of any of these reactions. Then he could balance it up with the risk of not vaccinating (spreadsheets, data collation and interpretation is part of his skill set!)
Even I can see that the numbers involved in these cases are incredibly low, 1 case here, 1 case there. Rare pops up. Some of the research is many many years old and things have moved on.
To the untrained eye these lists would frighten people into making ill informed choices.
Every drug, every natural/herbal (which are non regulated so won't have this data available, conveniently) remedy and practically every food type will have had people/animals reacting to them at some point or another and some of those reactions will kill.
In fact I am fairly certain that a food allergy reaction kills more people a year than a vaccine reaction does.
Grape toxicity has more deaths associated in dogs than vaccines do.
One case in point, dog vaccinated, couple of days later it is dead. Owners bringing out all this twaddle to justify " the vet killed my dog!" PM revealed the dog had eaten a towel.
It's the overall statistics that tell the story, not a one sided list intended to scare, which is the point that Penn and Teller were making crudely in that video.
FiF said:
bexVN said:
I am never going to debate with you JasandJules because I know you will always have your views on vaccines.
But honestly if my husband had the time he would be able break down all of these points into useful and common sense analysis and it would show just how low the % is of any of these reactions. Then he could balance it up with the risk of not vaccinating (spreadsheets, data collation and interpretation is part of his skill set!)
Even I can see that the numbers involved in these cases are incredibly low, 1 case here, 1 case there. Rare pops up. Some of the research is many many years old and things have moved on.
To the untrained eye these lists would frighten people into making ill informed choices.
Every drug, every natural/herbal (which are non regulated so won't have this data available, conveniently) remedy and practically every food type will have had people/animals reacting to them at some point or another and some of those reactions will kill.
In fact I am fairly certain that a food allergy reaction kills more people a year than a vaccine reaction does.
Grape toxicity has more deaths associated in dogs than vaccines do.
Seconded, I have no patience with this bunkum, time after time those reports list a case, next report another case singular. It's the same with other scare mongering reports that pick up on these investigations and fire off on social media, areas besides veterinary.But honestly if my husband had the time he would be able break down all of these points into useful and common sense analysis and it would show just how low the % is of any of these reactions. Then he could balance it up with the risk of not vaccinating (spreadsheets, data collation and interpretation is part of his skill set!)
Even I can see that the numbers involved in these cases are incredibly low, 1 case here, 1 case there. Rare pops up. Some of the research is many many years old and things have moved on.
To the untrained eye these lists would frighten people into making ill informed choices.
Every drug, every natural/herbal (which are non regulated so won't have this data available, conveniently) remedy and practically every food type will have had people/animals reacting to them at some point or another and some of those reactions will kill.
In fact I am fairly certain that a food allergy reaction kills more people a year than a vaccine reaction does.
Grape toxicity has more deaths associated in dogs than vaccines do.
One case in point, dog vaccinated, couple of days later it is dead. Owners bringing out all this twaddle to justify " the vet killed my dog!" PM revealed the dog had eaten a towel.
It's the overall statistics that tell the story, not a one sided list intended to scare, which is the point that Penn and Teller were making crudely in that video.
Tjan Penn and Teller video was good
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