Raw diet - why are vets against it?
Discussion
We have very recently added a cocker spaniel to our family, he's 8 weeks and been fed on a raw food diet (pre mixed). This is quite new to us and having spoken to two vets, they are both against it, saying there is a strong risk of food poisoning, ecoli etc etc. He also mentioned that there is a risk to the kids as he will have raw meat bacteria round his mouth and fur, which of course can transfer easily to the kids.
Has anyone had their vet endorse it - I hate following fads as its deemed fashionable (which is how the vets explained it), however don't want to change things without a good reason behind it.
Ive heard and seen all the 'coats great, small poo etc, But has anyone at a professional level endorsed?
Has anyone had their vet endorse it - I hate following fads as its deemed fashionable (which is how the vets explained it), however don't want to change things without a good reason behind it.
Ive heard and seen all the 'coats great, small poo etc, But has anyone at a professional level endorsed?
eating animals that have just been killed is different from processed meats produced in factories. I don't get the fad for raw food for animals. For example chicken can legally sold with salmonella infected flocks, you wouldn't even know it was effected, but you could end up giving your dog.
I don't recommend raw food. So many people think it's just feeding a lambs heart and all will be well. I have seen more pups in with haemorrhagic gastroenteritis which are fed in raw. All anecdotal but either way htat would put me off. Perhaps a proper formulated raw diet is ok? Still, there are peer reviewed papers that show there is an increased number of MRSA as e.coli in the faeces. Something I would rather my dogs didn't have.
Intensive farming and processing practices in this country lead to significant and consistent contamination of meat with Campy, Salmonella etc. Dogs are pretty hardy and only occasionally get unwell as a result, however they pose a significant contamination risk to people (particularly the immunocompromised - the old, young, unwell etc) who come into contact with them / their faeces.
It would be irresponsible for vets to condone something that we know to be a public health risk...
There's probably a fad somewhere for people to only eat raw meat / veg... there are the beginnings of a fad of drinking unpasteurised milk in this country... let's hope they also staunchly believe in homeopathy.
It would be irresponsible for vets to condone something that we know to be a public health risk...
There's probably a fad somewhere for people to only eat raw meat / veg... there are the beginnings of a fad of drinking unpasteurised milk in this country... let's hope they also staunchly believe in homeopathy.
Edited by jmsgld on Wednesday 13th September 01:54
The vet's we use has a nutritionist on the staff. Both ours are on "balanced" raw food diet but supplemented with veg (see the dogs & veg thread). The diet for both have been vetted by them. They have no problem with the stuff we use (Natural Instinct) although one vet was not a fan of raw chicken wings though. They don't sell raw food products but do sell the Hills Science Plan so technically they don't endorse.
No particular issues after 4 years though one seems to have developed a skin complaint for which he will soon be undertaking allergy testing (may or may not be related).
That said, we used a puppy mix for the first one until he was six months old, the other being a rescue which we got around a year later of a similar age.
As for the bacteria & mouth point, unless your dogs never leave the house, there's a very good chance they'll get their nose in & around some very unpleasant places. Particularly where other dogs, badgers, foxes, deer etc tend to frequent so I'd be not too bothered about their food.
I always apply the usual hygiene rules when handling their food & anything that goes near the dogs mouths though.
No particular issues after 4 years though one seems to have developed a skin complaint for which he will soon be undertaking allergy testing (may or may not be related).
That said, we used a puppy mix for the first one until he was six months old, the other being a rescue which we got around a year later of a similar age.
As for the bacteria & mouth point, unless your dogs never leave the house, there's a very good chance they'll get their nose in & around some very unpleasant places. Particularly where other dogs, badgers, foxes, deer etc tend to frequent so I'd be not too bothered about their food.
I always apply the usual hygiene rules when handling their food & anything that goes near the dogs mouths though.
Smiler. said:
The vet's we use has a nutritionist on the staff. Both ours are on "balanced" raw food diet but supplemented with veg (see the dogs & veg thread). The diet for both have been vetted by them. They have no problem with the stuff we use (Natural Instinct) although one vet was not a fan of raw chicken wings though. They don't sell raw food products but do sell the Hills Science Plan so technically they don't endorse.
No particular issues after 4 years though one seems to have developed a skin complaint for which he will soon be undertaking allergy testing (may or may not be related).
That said, we used a puppy mix for the first one until he was six months old, the other being a rescue which we got around a year later of a similar age.
As for the bacteria & mouth point, unless your dogs never leave the house, there's a very good chance they'll get their nose in & around some very unpleasant places. Particularly where other dogs, badgers, foxes, deer etc tend to frequent so I'd be not too bothered about their food.
I always apply the usual hygiene rules when handling their food & anything that goes near the dogs mouths though.
I agree with the above. The recommendation is to only feed frozen defrost, particularly chicken. The freezing process minimises the risk with regards to campy, salmonella etc; it is quoted to reduce risk by 90%. However good hygiene and slow defrosting processes will assist in reducing bacterial growth, ie defrost at low temps [fridge].No particular issues after 4 years though one seems to have developed a skin complaint for which he will soon be undertaking allergy testing (may or may not be related).
That said, we used a puppy mix for the first one until he was six months old, the other being a rescue which we got around a year later of a similar age.
As for the bacteria & mouth point, unless your dogs never leave the house, there's a very good chance they'll get their nose in & around some very unpleasant places. Particularly where other dogs, badgers, foxes, deer etc tend to frequent so I'd be not too bothered about their food.
I always apply the usual hygiene rules when handling their food & anything that goes near the dogs mouths though.
I have no problem feeding raw [frozen] chicken wings as I purchase them from a supermarket [and cheaper]; the supermarkets are keen to ensure that the risks are minimised. Not without risk however.
Our vets are perfectly happy with us feeding raw. A dog fed on raw apparently has a more acidic stomach acid than a dog not fed raw, so it better protects itself against bacterial infections.
For larger dogs that can suffer from bloat there is also evidence that may suggest a lower risk when fed a raw diet rather than kibble, but no positive proof yet so take that one with a pinch of salt.
As for it being a "Fad", have dogs always been fed on kibble??
For larger dogs that can suffer from bloat there is also evidence that may suggest a lower risk when fed a raw diet rather than kibble, but no positive proof yet so take that one with a pinch of salt.
As for it being a "Fad", have dogs always been fed on kibble??
The main problem is lack of research on an owners part for proper raw feeding Especially re puppies.
I don't tell people not to feed raw but I do make them aware of the cons not just the pros (raw feeding advocates tend to heavily push positives and leave off the negatives!)
I would not home feed raw for a puppy but buy good quality pre packed for pups so that you know it had the correct balance of vitamins, mins, proteins, fats etc that a growing pup needs. Once they are adult you can afford to be a bit more adventurous in trying out home prepped raw.
Doing it this way usually means a separate freezer (all raw MUST be frozen thoroughly before being defrosted and fed to reduce risk of some nasty parasites eg neospora) and obviously a separate food prep area for your dogs food and yes care is needed around children re cross contamination and one reason vets are wary! Though salmonella can be found on dry food as well.
Don't forget domesticated dogs have for hundreds of years relied on leftover COOKED foods thrown to them. They really have not been fed completely raw diets for as long as they have been in domestication it would have been a mixture.
Re kibble there is good and bad in this so I also discuss pros and cons of fry food when asked! And I rarely push foods we may sell. I advise on what is best for owner and pet!
This is an excellent site to research re all types of dog food. A trustworthy and well researched site.
https://www.allaboutdogfood.co.uk/
I don't tell people not to feed raw but I do make them aware of the cons not just the pros (raw feeding advocates tend to heavily push positives and leave off the negatives!)
I would not home feed raw for a puppy but buy good quality pre packed for pups so that you know it had the correct balance of vitamins, mins, proteins, fats etc that a growing pup needs. Once they are adult you can afford to be a bit more adventurous in trying out home prepped raw.
Doing it this way usually means a separate freezer (all raw MUST be frozen thoroughly before being defrosted and fed to reduce risk of some nasty parasites eg neospora) and obviously a separate food prep area for your dogs food and yes care is needed around children re cross contamination and one reason vets are wary! Though salmonella can be found on dry food as well.
Don't forget domesticated dogs have for hundreds of years relied on leftover COOKED foods thrown to them. They really have not been fed completely raw diets for as long as they have been in domestication it would have been a mixture.
Re kibble there is good and bad in this so I also discuss pros and cons of fry food when asked! And I rarely push foods we may sell. I advise on what is best for owner and pet!
This is an excellent site to research re all types of dog food. A trustworthy and well researched site.
https://www.allaboutdogfood.co.uk/
Edited by bexVN on Wednesday 13th September 13:11
carinatauk said:
Smiler. said:
The vet's we use has a nutritionist on the staff. Both ours are on "balanced" raw food diet but supplemented with veg (see the dogs & veg thread). The diet for both have been vetted by them. They have no problem with the stuff we use (Natural Instinct) although one vet was not a fan of raw chicken wings though. They don't sell raw food products but do sell the Hills Science Plan so technically they don't endorse.
No particular issues after 4 years though one seems to have developed a skin complaint for which he will soon be undertaking allergy testing (may or may not be related).
That said, we used a puppy mix for the first one until he was six months old, the other being a rescue which we got around a year later of a similar age.
As for the bacteria & mouth point, unless your dogs never leave the house, there's a very good chance they'll get their nose in & around some very unpleasant places. Particularly where other dogs, badgers, foxes, deer etc tend to frequent so I'd be not too bothered about their food.
I always apply the usual hygiene rules when handling their food & anything that goes near the dogs mouths though.
I agree with the above. The recommendation is to only feed frozen defrost, particularly chicken. The freezing process minimises the risk with regards to campy, salmonella etc; it is quoted to reduce risk by 90%. However good hygiene and slow defrosting processes will assist in reducing bacterial growth, ie defrost at low temps [fridge].No particular issues after 4 years though one seems to have developed a skin complaint for which he will soon be undertaking allergy testing (may or may not be related).
That said, we used a puppy mix for the first one until he was six months old, the other being a rescue which we got around a year later of a similar age.
As for the bacteria & mouth point, unless your dogs never leave the house, there's a very good chance they'll get their nose in & around some very unpleasant places. Particularly where other dogs, badgers, foxes, deer etc tend to frequent so I'd be not too bothered about their food.
I always apply the usual hygiene rules when handling their food & anything that goes near the dogs mouths though.
I have no problem feeding raw [frozen] chicken wings as I purchase them from a supermarket [and cheaper]; the supermarkets are keen to ensure that the risks are minimised. Not without risk however.
bexVN said:
As long as you are not relying on supermarket chicken wings for calcium, they are fine to feed as eg a treat. They have very low calcium levels as they are bred for meat so have very poor bone density so little nutritional value.
Did not know that.Wary of chicken wings anyway as saw some nasty looking splinters on the one & only time I fed him one.
They have raw bones that I've prepared to remove the fat & cut into suitable sized sections on a band saw.
Every other day or every two-three days, subject to size.
Currently we feed pre prepared frozen raw cotswald meals, comes in either minced, or sausages in various flavours , we use the later as its less mess, contains all that the dog needs, fuss free and good for him, usual benefits noted from his waste, had no negatives to warrent going back to kibble.
bexVN said:
As long as you are not relying on supermarket chicken wings for calcium, they are fine to feed as eg a treat. They have very low calcium levels as they are bred for meat so have very poor bone density so little nutritional value.
Thanks, I wasn't aware of this, however it is only fed as a treat. I have contacted the supermarket and queried this as I have never been made aware and hopefully they may respond. I will feedback when I hear from them.carinatauk said:
bexVN said:
As long as you are not relying on supermarket chicken wings for calcium, they are fine to feed as eg a treat. They have very low calcium levels as they are bred for meat so have very poor bone density so little nutritional value.
Thanks, I wasn't aware of this, however it is only fed as a treat. I have contacted the supermarket and queried this as I have never been made aware and hopefully they may respond. I will feedback when I hear from them.Thanks for all the info, so it looks like the majority of vets don't endorse raw. End of the day I would rather go with professional advise over amateur.
Will look at moving over to dry in future, with occasional cooked chicken etc. It seems there are quite a few stories out there about dogs contacting nasty bugs from raw, some leaving life long conditions. This combined with the additional risk of the kids getting something makes it not worth the risk for me.
Will look at moving over to dry in future, with occasional cooked chicken etc. It seems there are quite a few stories out there about dogs contacting nasty bugs from raw, some leaving life long conditions. This combined with the additional risk of the kids getting something makes it not worth the risk for me.
Four Litre said:
Thanks for all the info, so it looks like the majority of vets don't endorse raw. End of the day I would rather go with professional advise over amateur.
Will look at moving over to dry in future, with occasional cooked chicken etc. It seems there are quite a few stories out there about dogs contacting nasty bugs from raw, some leaving life long conditions. This combined with the additional risk of the kids getting something makes it not worth the risk for me.
Enjoy the larger and softer poos Will look at moving over to dry in future, with occasional cooked chicken etc. It seems there are quite a few stories out there about dogs contacting nasty bugs from raw, some leaving life long conditions. This combined with the additional risk of the kids getting something makes it not worth the risk for me.
bexVN said:
carinatauk said:
bexVN said:
As long as you are not relying on supermarket chicken wings for calcium, they are fine to feed as eg a treat. They have very low calcium levels as they are bred for meat so have very poor bone density so little nutritional value.
Thanks, I wasn't aware of this, however it is only fed as a treat. I have contacted the supermarket and queried this as I have never been made aware and hopefully they may respond. I will feedback when I hear from them.carinatauk said:
Well they have responded by telephone and email and are currently looking into it, whether they comeback with anything conclusive we will see.
Fair enough. Though as I said the birds they sell are bred for meat and fast growth. They aren't going to waste their time feeding them diets to build good strong bones when the birds will only be alive for about 4 months and it is not the bones they are interested in. We looked into it at my work after after a young cat was presented with fractures, deformities and poor bone density and one of the main parts of its diet had been supermarket chicken wings. I stress supermarket as this is less likely an issue if the chickens were in a small holding where growth is slower and they have more room to exercise etc. Gassing Station | All Creatures Great & Small | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff