dog owners using prong or shock collars or hitting dogs

[parakitaMol.]

Out walking my dog today and had to pass some utter tw+t using a shock collar as 'control' on his poor dog - the idiot even said to me 'oh it's ok, I've got him under control' - what a dick, errrrr no, if you are using that then you clearly know nothing about behaviour, training or controlling your dog... 10 minutes later a ridiculous woman came along with a Rottweiler, who she was totally unable to control, had a massive harness on with studs on it and a prong collar. I really despair of these idiots and find it so upsetting to think of their poor dogs whose learning is compromised and all they know is that pain and punishment is acceptable.

Couple of weeks ago I went to Paws in the Park with my dog and another dog in the queue jumped up at him in an over bearing and unwelcome way... instead of the owner just giving his dog and my dog a bit of space he punched it. So I'm stuck behind this knob for the next 10 minutes seething.

Just venting really, was so horrid to see so many dogs in fearful and anxious states being repeatedly damaged by their owners.... don't people look into the effects of these things before doing them?

[bexVN]

Where do you live?!! Not sure I've seen dogs with prong collars before, glad to say.

I could not have stayed quiet seeing a dog being punched, don't know how you managed!!

[parakitaMol.]

Rural Surrey!!
I was so shocked to see these things being blatantly used in public because everyone I know with dogs (especially my friends who are professional behaviourists) understands how damaging they are to a dog/owner relationship and a dog's confidence / behaviour. The asshole with the shock collar was using it to make his dog stop running off!! ffs! I hope he doesn't have small children at home!

But the punching in the queue for Paws in the Park was REALLY uncomfortable as I was in line on my own and meeting my friend in there... he was a big rough looking bloke with a bunch of rough looking friends so it just wasn't the place to challenge - also I didn't want any stressful vibes passing to my dog... everyone in the line was just looking really unhappy about it but nobody said anything. I think we collectively worried if he was challenged he would take it out further on his dog

[Autopilot]

E-Collars and Prongs are great training devices when used properly and under the right circumstances. Before the backlash starts, I'll re-clarify my first sentence, 'Training Devices', 'Used Properly, 'right circumstances'!

There are valid reasons for using an E-Collar, but controlling your dog is not one of them. Getting control of a dog is done by training. Lots and lots of training. If you're not prepared to spend this amount of time and effort getting 'control' of your dog, then don't get a dog, especially a dog from working lines. Some breeds require more effort than others, some require more specialised training methods, but investing time and effort in your dog will usually yield the right result.

Prong collars are hugely misunderstood. Again, I'll caveat this by saying you should always use the right tool for the job and sometimes a prong, when used correctly, may be the right tool for the job. Prong collars do not stab the dogs neck. Prong collars use evenly applied pressure around a dogs neck and is more effective than the quick jerk and impact of a choke chain or the constant and relentless pressure from a regular flat collar. When used correctly, the dog experiences no pressure at all apart from at the precise moment a correction is applied. Some studies have shown that the action of a prong is that it simulates the natural 'correction' one dog gives another - If you watch dogs play, you'll tend to see a lot of mouthing.

Don't be misled by it's appearance! A prong can be a very effective and sometime necessary training tool for some dogs It's typically people who have never used them that condemn them. Do I think that people should rush out and buy prong collars? No, no I don't!

A friend recently told me they were considering getting one as they couldn't get their dog to walk to heel. I completely disagreed with it for this use (although you can argue and there ARE studies out there that show a prong is less damaging to a dogs neck than a regular flat collar) it's just not appropriate in this case as they are the problem, not the dog. I said I'd spend a few hours training the dog with them and all I required them to do was give it its last meal on Thursday night and don't feed it anything at all until we start training (Saturday Morning). It's surprising how hard a hungry dog is willing to work! It took literally a minute to get the dog to walk to heel (without a lead but with food in hand position at my hip). A lot of fuss, high reward treats and 4 minutes training a day and the dog walks to heel. It's not perfect, but it's a huge improvement and early days and it doesn't pull. Do the maths, that's under half an hour over a week! The same training was done with recall and it was fed an entire (dry) meal by calling the dog up and down the garden.

Training is always the right course of action, but a dog trainers toolbox must contain many different tools for many different situations.

Would I personally use a head collar on my dogs? Not a chance! I tried one, he looked uncomfortable....mainly because he was....it connects to his jaw and if he did pull or lunge while wearing one, it wouldn't surprise me if he picked up a cervical injury due to the jolt on his neck.

I'm a firm believer that people who get dogs MUST be subjected to a competency test beforehand and if anybody does use any 'training tools' on their dog, then get professional tuition before you do more harm than good.

[bigbob77]

parakitaMol. said:

errrrr no, if you are using that then you clearly know nothing about behaviour, training or controlling your dog

That makes no sense. There are people who use negative reinforcement correctly, and there are people who use positive reinforcement incorrectly. Have you never seen someone "bribing" a mis-behaving dog with treats? "Good boy... good boy... please be a good boy... have a treat... be a good boy"

I don't agree with shock collars or prong collars. Not that they necessarily cause injuries, but I think they're too harsh. I did try a shock collar on myself by the way (my arm, not my neck) after it was recommended for my old dog. I wanted to see what it was like before making a decision. The name is appropriate - it causes a shock, not pain. I had it on setting 3 (out of 6), I don't think I would want to try 6, especially on my neck !

I used to (many many years ago) use a choke chain with my German Shepherd for various training. I used it as intended - for correction. She responded to it excellently. Looking back, I can think of a hundred things I could have done instead which would be more pleasant and effective. But at the time it did the job and I genuinely don't believe I hurt her, she barely even cared.
I can't think of a scenario where I would use one again. Especially not with my current dogs who are big babies.

To anyone reading this and thinking of using a choke collar - at the very least please learn to use them properly. They are intended for very short, sharp corrections without any force behind them. I get so upset every time I see dogs (usually Staffies) where the owner allows them to pull on a choke chain. They can't breathe! Teach them to walk properly or use an anti-pull harness or halti collar, not a choke chain.

Edited by bigbob77 on Wednesday 8th June 14:49

[moorx]

I'm just glad I live in enlightened Wales, where e-collars are banned.

[bigbob77]

moorx said:

I'm just glad I live in enlightened Wales

Congratulations, that phrase has never been said before : https://www.google.co.uk/#q=%22I%27m+just+glad+I+l...

[parakitaMol.]

Autopilot said:

E-Collars and Prongs are great training devices when used properly and under the right circumstances.

I'm not a behaviourist but I cannot see a single circumstance that would justify this. How would you explain that none of the professional associations of behaviourists and trainers endorse their use? and have actually issued a joint statement with numerous animal welfare organisations to say they are opposed to their use and that they should be banned from sale?

APBC
http://www.apbc.org.uk/articles/shockcollars
COAPE
http://www.coape.org/blog.php?id=22&start2=0&a...
ABTC
http://www.abtcouncil.org.uk/

Do you have any professional behaviourists or vets (who belong to any of the UK's member associations) who would support your view and who use them in training? (I am not talking about people who get an online qualification in 1 month from a Facebook quiz and then set themselves up in business to train your dog in a weekend.

I know several behaviourists and they are ALL completely against them for good reason.

Would you say that any/ all the statements contained below are wrong and why?
http://banshockcollars.ca/policies.php#a31

Edited by parakitaMol. on Wednesday 8th June 15:15

[parakitaMol.]

bigbob77 said:

That makes no sense. There are people who use negative reinforcement correctly, and there are people who use positive reinforcement incorrectly. Have you never seen someone "bribing" a mis-behaving dog with treats? "Good boy... good boy... please be a good boy... have a treat... be a good boy"

I am not sure how you can use negative reinforcement correctly! could you explain?

Perhaps you don't know enough about that particular dog, it's history and why the owner is using positive re-inforcement, distraction and counter conditioning. Do you ask them what they are doing and why? or do you prefer to read it that way so that you can dismiss it with ridicule?

Edited by parakitaMol. on Wednesday 8th June 15:11

[bigbob77]

parakitaMol. said:

bigbob77 said:

That makes no sense. There are people who use negative reinforcement correctly, and there are people who use positive reinforcement incorrectly. Have you never seen someone "bribing" a mis-behaving dog with treats? "Good boy... good boy... please be a good boy... have a treat... be a good boy"

I am not sure how you can use negative reinforcement correctly! could you explain?

Perhaps you don't know enough about that particular dog, it's history and why the owner is using positive re-inforcement, distraction and counter conditioning. Do you ask them what they are doing and why? or do you prefer to read it that way.

If you look back at dog training methods from 40+ years ago, there were many books written by highly regarded professionals who used (in my opinion) brutal and overly harsh techniques. About 20 years ago I read an old copy of "The Koehler Method of Dog Training"... I see it's still sold today, I really hope it has been toned down but based on some reviews I'm not sure. One of Koehler's favourite tools was "the heaviest belt you can find". It is completely and utterly unnecessary today, there are countless more effective techniques. But in the right context and with the right dogs, those techniques did work. They even used to belt humans, and some of those grew up to be productive members of society!

I have seen positive reinforcement used incorrectly more often than I've seen it used correctly. Family members, training clubs, etc. The scenario I described ("bribing" a dog) is a common one.

Thing is - with positive reinforcement if you make a mistake, you try again. The dog doesn't care - it got some unwarranted praise and treats, so what?
With negative reinforcement if you make a mistake you can permanently damage a dog both mentally and physically.

But there definitely are correct and incorrect ways to carry out both. Although please don't misunderstand me - the best way to carry out negative reinforcement is "not at all"

[bexVN]

parakitaMol. said:

Rural Surrey!!
I was so shocked to see these things being blatantly used in public because everyone I know with dogs (especially my friends who are professional behaviourists) understands how damaging they are to a dog/owner relationship and a dog's confidence / behaviour. The asshole with the shock collar was using it to make his dog stop running off!! ffs! I hope he doesn't have small children at home!

But the punching in the queue for Paws in the Park was REALLY uncomfortable as I was in line on my own and meeting my friend in there... he was a big rough looking bloke with a bunch of rough looking friends so it just wasn't the place to challenge - also I didn't want any stressful vibes passing to my dog... everyone in the line was just looking really unhappy about it but nobody said anything. I think we collectively worried if he was challenged he would take it out further on his dog

Understandable. I have to bite my tongue in my work sometimes and it is really hard.

Have to say rural Surrey doesn't strike as the sort of place to be seeing them, I don't know why!

[parakitaMol.]

bigbob77 said:

parakitaMol. said:

bigbob77 said:

That makes no sense. There are people who use negative reinforcement correctly, and there are people who use positive reinforcement incorrectly. Have you never seen someone "bribing" a mis-behaving dog with treats? "Good boy... good boy... please be a good boy... have a treat... be a good boy"

I am not sure how you can use negative reinforcement correctly! could you explain?

Perhaps you don't know enough about that particular dog, it's history and why the owner is using positive re-inforcement, distraction and counter conditioning. Do you ask them what they are doing and why? or do you prefer to read it that way.

If you look back at dog training methods from 40+ years ago, there were many books written by highly regarded professionals who used (in my opinion) brutal and overly harsh techniques. About 20 years ago I read an old copy of "The Koehler Method of Dog Training"... I see it's still sold today, I really hope it has been toned down but based on some reviews I'm not sure. One of Koehler's favourite tools was "the heaviest belt you can find". It is completely and utterly unnecessary today, there are countless more effective techniques. But in the right context and with the right dogs, those techniques did work. They even used to belt humans, and some of those grew up to be productive members of society!

I have seen positive reinforcement used incorrectly more often than I've seen it used correctly. Family members, training clubs, etc. The scenario I described ("bribing" a dog) is a common one.

Thing is - with positive reinforcement if you make a mistake, you try again. The dog doesn't care - it got some unwarranted praise and treats, so what?
With negative reinforcement if you make a mistake you can permanently damage a dog both mentally and physically.

But there definitely are correct and incorrect ways to carry out both. Although please don't misunderstand me - the best way to carry out negative reinforcement is "not at all"

You're right, our knowledge and understanding of animal behaviour is rapidly changing and has done in the last 40 years - many practices from just a few years ago appeared logical with quick results are now understood to have harmful long term issues. Particularly around punishing dogs for unwanted behaviours..... (hitting and shouting at dogs for running off etc)... like with parenting we all learn as we go don't we... nobody has the perfect child or comes equipped with knowledge how to get it right all the time. And the understanding changes... as with medicine and all things.

But what you are seeing as bribing a dog, might actually be part of a counter-conditioning therapy... for example; fearful reactive dog learns to bite other dogs in order to keep them away, so long term modification would introduce other dogs nearby (safely controlled that he cant bite them) but would use positive rewards so they learn to associate nice things happen in the presence of other dogs. Over time dog learns that other dogs means good stuff happens, nobody shouts at it or punishes it for being scared and doing the only thing it knows, and experiences lots of other dogs around safely, that can't and don't hurt him, eventually fears subside. Whereas the punishment might teach the dog to supress it's response but it doesn't take the fear away... so eventually the behaviour comes back but worse - the behaviourists I know are now regularly dealing with dogs who are in that second stage and it is much harder to undo.

Anyway like I say I am not a behaviourist myself and my post was not to cause an internet fight! I am very interested in this subject as I have 3 dogs, it just deeply unsettled me to have 3 bad experiences recently see dogs being roughly handled and shocked or choked for going too far from their owner.

[bigbob77]

No internet fight here

With my first dog (German Shepherd) I made so many mistakes and listened to so much bad advice! It's not like I didn't try - I made a prolonged effort to actually learn the right thing to do, and was unlucky enough to read crap books, go to crap training classes, and also invent a few crap techniques of my own!
The thing is, she was (mentally) bullet-proof! Nothing could break her spirit and when we eventually learned the right way to do things, she was already 5+ years old but she forgave all of our nonsense. Some dogs/owners are lucky like that.

My next dog, a Labrador who is now 5 years old... Couldn't be more different. I made the awful mistake when he was young of telling him off... That's it - just a verbal telling off... It scarred him for life .
I've learned that with him, even a lack of praise is too strong a punishment. He is the most ridiculously sensitive thing I have ever seen.

After owning those two dogs, I don't like to dismiss any techniques even if I think they're wrong. Each dog is different, each owner is different, if something works then you can't necessarily say it's wrong without knowing any further detail. I wouldn't "shame" someone for using a choke chain or shock collar, although I would definitely tell them there are better ways. I have infinitely more fun training my current dogs with positive reinforcement than I had with my German Shepherd.

Although in your examples above - hitting a dog isn't a technique. I have definitely been angry enough at my dogs to want to hit them - they can absolute wee sts sometimes and deserve a good slap. When that happens I take myself away from them, calm down, and then obviously realise that it was all my fault and I'm the one that deserves a slap

[parakitaMol.]

Yep likewise, it has been a big learning curve for me too with my 3 all different and made mistakes along the way AND been fed a load of rubbish by various people purporting to be experts who when you get to know a bit more you realise it doesn't hold up. Like you I have seen how one moment can have a lasting impact - I have one dog with a deep noise phobia that was caused in a town centre by a big truck with a tail lift that crashed down beside the pavement as we walked past. Up until that moment he LOVED going out and about wherever we went. Now he has a complete melt down. What I don't understand though is why some owners insist that punishment techniques are ok for them and their dog, but all the professional training bodies wholeheartedly reject it. I'm prepared to hear someone's argument but I can't see the evidence (other than it worked for my dog) - a bit like homeopathy! lol.

[robbocop33]

I was one of these dheads who was going to use a shock collar for a short period of time(strong willed husky with mind of her own). As a precaution i put it on it's very lowest setting and touched it against my hand, i couldn't believe it!!
The shock was exactly the same as the feeling you get if you touch a bare wire in a 240 volt domestic home wiring system, i accidentally done this when i was 12 and it felt exactly the same, i was alarmed at how much of a punch i got on its lowest setting, no way would i have put that near the dog,especially the neck area, glad i tested it first!!

[moorx]

robbocop33 said:

I was one of these dheads who was going to use a shock collar for a short period of time(strong willed husky with mind of her own). As a precaution i put it on it's very lowest setting and touched it against my hand, i couldn't believe it!!
The shock was exactly the same as the feeling you get if you touch a bare wire in a 240 volt domestic home wiring system, i accidentally done this when i was 12 and it felt exactly the same, i was alarmed at how much of a punch i got on its lowest setting, no way would i have put that near the dog,especially the neck area, glad i tested it first!!

That's interesting to hear, because I've heard other people justify their use by saying that the lowest setting is like 'vibrate' mode on a mobile phone.

Good for you for testing it and making the right choice for your dog.

[bigbob77]

moorx said:

robbocop33 said:

I was one of these dheads who was going to use a shock collar for a short period of time(strong willed husky with mind of her own). As a precaution i put it on it's very lowest setting and touched it against my hand, i couldn't believe it!!
The shock was exactly the same as the feeling you get if you touch a bare wire in a 240 volt domestic home wiring system, i accidentally done this when i was 12 and it felt exactly the same, i was alarmed at how much of a punch i got on its lowest setting, no way would i have put that near the dog,especially the neck area, glad i tested it first!!

That's interesting to hear, because I've heard other people justify their use by saying that the lowest setting is like 'vibrate' mode on a mobile phone.

Good for you for testing it and making the right choice for your dog.

The one I tried was like a mobile vibrating on setting 1 of 6. Extremely mild. Setting 3 was very uncomfortable. I chickened out of trying setting 6 even on my arm!

[Andy_mr2sc]

Where is Barbera Woodhouse when you need her?

[Autopilot]

parakitaMol. said:

Autopilot said:

E-Collars and Prongs are great training devices when used properly and under the right circumstances.

I'm not a behaviourist but I cannot see a single circumstance that would justify this. How would you explain that none of the professional associations of behaviourists and trainers endorse their use? and have actually issued a joint statement with numerous animal welfare organisations to say they are opposed to their use and that they should be banned from sale?

APBC
http://www.apbc.org.uk/articles/shockcollars
COAPE
http://www.coape.org/blog.php?id=22&start2=0&a...
ABTC
http://www.abtcouncil.org.uk/

Do you have any professional behaviourists or vets (who belong to any of the UK's member associations) who would support your view and who use them in training? (I am not talking about people who get an online qualification in 1 month from a Facebook quiz and then set themselves up in business to train your dog in a weekend.

I know several behaviourists and they are ALL completely against them for good reason.

Would you say that any/ all the statements contained below are wrong and why?
http://banshockcollars.ca/policies.php#a31

Edited by parakitaMol. on Wednesday 8th June 15:15

One of my friends has a small Parsons Terrier who unfortunately has killed a sheep. The land at the end of his property now has sheep being kept on it and despite his land being secured, the dog has got out and had a go at the sheep but luckily was stopped before any harm was caused. The farmer was quite understanding on that occasion but categorically stated that the dog will be shot if this happens again. The dog wears an e-collar and there is a perimeter wire around his land. The dog gets the occasional warning beep that she's getting close but clearly understands what happens if they continue past the perimeter. The dog is obsessed with the sheep and the ONLY reason she hasn't been shot is due to it clearly understanding what the warning beep means and the subsequent consequence.

An acquaintance lost one of their dogs when its through the roof prey drive got the better of it. It picked up a scent, found an animal of some sort and gave chase. Despite being an exceptional dog and used in competition, every now and again, his prey drive got the better of him and when he gives chase, nothing else exists or matters and no calling him will get him to stop. Unfortunately this chase came to a sad end when the dog ran in to a lane and was killed by a car. His other dog (which was from the same litter) is also the same, it excels in competition but due to it's high prey drive, he will have the occasional incident when the dog ignore him. Now don't forget we're talking about competition dogs, not just poorly trained pets. As he's lost one dog already, he's not prepared to take any risks and doesn't care if the dogs natural instinct is to give chase, when he calls the dog off, the dog MUST stop every time. It's a rare occasion, but if his dog does go to ground and start to become more interested in something else and start to ignore him, the dog gets paged to refocus him. The dog knows the next escalation point after a vibrate so will ALWAYS come back under control / focus.

None of the professional associations of behaviourists and trainers endorse the use of E-Collars, but you would be very naïve if you don't think the trainers don't actually use them regardless of what their governing bodies may state.

Any training tool in the wrongs hands is dangerous whether it be a flat collar and lead or a prong. I would never recommend training your dog without consulting professionals first.

[Autopilot]

bigbob77 said:

moorx said:

robbocop33 said:

I was one of these dheads who was going to use a shock collar for a short period of time(strong willed husky with mind of her own). As a precaution i put it on it's very lowest setting and touched it against my hand, i couldn't believe it!!
The shock was exactly the same as the feeling you get if you touch a bare wire in a 240 volt domestic home wiring system, i accidentally done this when i was 12 and it felt exactly the same, i was alarmed at how much of a punch i got on its lowest setting, no way would i have put that near the dog,especially the neck area, glad i tested it first!!

That's interesting to hear, because I've heard other people justify their use by saying that the lowest setting is like 'vibrate' mode on a mobile phone.

Good for you for testing it and making the right choice for your dog.

The one I tried was like a mobile vibrating on setting 1 of 6. Extremely mild. Setting 3 was very uncomfortable. I chickened out of trying setting 6 even on my arm!

How exactly were you going to apply the use of an E-Collar in this situation and what did you want to achieve?

When people talk about the 'vibration' from an E-Collar, surely this sensation would be amore appropriate? By this I mean that if a dog, lets use the Husky as an example, exhibited unwanted behaviour - reading between the lines when you say 'strong willed Husky with a mind of her own' I will use this as an example in the fact that it ignores you. It's been trained, it knows the command and what it SHOULD be doing but makes a conscious decision not to. It's basically taking the piss out of you.

So the Husky decides to ignore you when you call it to heel. You've decided to call it to heel as you can see a jogger and you can pre-empt that your dog will want to chase so to avoid any issues, you bring the dog under control and want it to be with you and focused on you. remember, you've trained your dog, it is obedient, but we know it's strong willed so 'control' is very different to obedience.

You call it a second time and again, it ignores you, so this time you hold down the pager function which causes a vibration, yes an actual vibration like a mobile phone and NOT a shock.

As a conscientious dog owner, you've done some training with the e-collar in a controlled environment before you unleash it on the general public, nobody is going to just stick an e-collar on a dog not knowing what the results are going to be in an uncontrolled environment are they!!.

What you did during training at home was to call the dog in to heel. It ignores you so you call it a second time. It ignores you so when you issue the command, you hold down the vibrate button. The dog thinks what the hell is going on, but is very conscious of the fact that he's not distracted anymore and is going to follow your command. He puts himself in the heel position and you place you hand on the dog and release the button at the same time. The dog learns that the irritating vibration stops when he completes your command, so in this case it's the safe zone, by your left side. If as and when your dog ignores the pager, if appropriate, you can switch to a low shock to regain focus. The dog will quickly learn that ignoring you has consequences. If it ignores the pager it knows there is an escalation point.

Again, I'm not condoning the use of e-collars and certainly not for this situation, but when used correctly, for an appropriate reason with an appropriate dog, then they can be a necessary training tool. If used correctly there is no need to shock your dog...or even wear it at all.

Edited by Autopilot on Thursday 9th June 11:18