Aggression from a pet.
Discussion
A little advice from fellow dog owners if I may.
One of our dogs is a big (6.5stone) lump, with quite a dominant personality. He's a Doberman x Vizsla.
Playing in the garden this afternoon with his indistructiball (as it sounds, his favourite toy) the girlfriend needed to step in as he was about to cause damage to something. This was met by aggressive snarling by him, directed at her. This is quite unlike him, sometimes he needs controlling around other people (strangers, some he just doesn't like the look of!) and often with other dogs.
I am of the opinion that very occasionally there is a time that a dog needs a firm hand. Before anyone goes all RSPCA I mean a slap round the nose or similar, nothing to cause injury, just an 'ow!'
IMO this was one of these cases.
Sarah disagrees, but whilst she was in the garden I wasn't. She (in the firmest voice she could muster) told him in, he didn't comply, so she frog marched him in to the porch, where he stayed for 30 minutes, watching our other two outside having fun.
I said to her that had I been there this behaviour would have got him a smack. Having bounced this off my mother before (62 years old, owned dogs since 15 years old) she agreed that very occasionally a 'top dog' needs to remind the lower in the pack that they belong there, citing that if he'd done that to his mother she would have 'ripped his head off'.
What are anyone elses thoughts?
For the record, I have owned Wilson (the dog) for two and a half years, and have only ever needed to give him a slap on two previous occasions, both times of which I believe were also perfectly warranted. On both of these occasions I feel it worked immediately, and bought him back in line, whilst being sure that a lesser act would have not have worked to the same degree.
One of our dogs is a big (6.5stone) lump, with quite a dominant personality. He's a Doberman x Vizsla.
Playing in the garden this afternoon with his indistructiball (as it sounds, his favourite toy) the girlfriend needed to step in as he was about to cause damage to something. This was met by aggressive snarling by him, directed at her. This is quite unlike him, sometimes he needs controlling around other people (strangers, some he just doesn't like the look of!) and often with other dogs.
I am of the opinion that very occasionally there is a time that a dog needs a firm hand. Before anyone goes all RSPCA I mean a slap round the nose or similar, nothing to cause injury, just an 'ow!'
IMO this was one of these cases.
Sarah disagrees, but whilst she was in the garden I wasn't. She (in the firmest voice she could muster) told him in, he didn't comply, so she frog marched him in to the porch, where he stayed for 30 minutes, watching our other two outside having fun.
I said to her that had I been there this behaviour would have got him a smack. Having bounced this off my mother before (62 years old, owned dogs since 15 years old) she agreed that very occasionally a 'top dog' needs to remind the lower in the pack that they belong there, citing that if he'd done that to his mother she would have 'ripped his head off'.
What are anyone elses thoughts?
For the record, I have owned Wilson (the dog) for two and a half years, and have only ever needed to give him a slap on two previous occasions, both times of which I believe were also perfectly warranted. On both of these occasions I feel it worked immediately, and bought him back in line, whilst being sure that a lesser act would have not have worked to the same degree.
A potential problem with taking that approach is that the dog will learn that growling/snarling as a warning mechanism 'does not work'. They may decide to go straight to the next level (ie snapping/biting) then you're in real trouble.
I think your girlfriend made the right decision, although again, some dogs might react badly to being 'frogmarched' (I presume by the collar?)
You say this is unlike him. Am I right in thinking that you have recently introduced another dog and there have been some issues with him around resource guarding?
I think maybe you need to cut Wilson a bit of slack at the moment until things have settled down a bit.
I think your girlfriend made the right decision, although again, some dogs might react badly to being 'frogmarched' (I presume by the collar?)
You say this is unlike him. Am I right in thinking that you have recently introduced another dog and there have been some issues with him around resource guarding?
I think maybe you need to cut Wilson a bit of slack at the moment until things have settled down a bit.
Edited by moorx on Saturday 2nd April 20:21
moorx said:
A potential problem with taking that approach is that the dog will learn that growling/snarling as a warning mechanism 'does not work'. They may decide to go straight to the next level (ie snapping/biting) then you're in real trouble.
I think your girlfriend made the right decision, although again, some dogs might react badly to being 'frogmarched' (I presume by the collar?)
You say this is unlike him. Am I right in thinking that you have recently introduced another dog and there have been some issues with him around resource guarding?
I think maybe you need to cut Wilson a bit of slack at the moment until things have settled down a bit.
Thanks moorx, a considered reply. I think your girlfriend made the right decision, although again, some dogs might react badly to being 'frogmarched' (I presume by the collar?)
You say this is unlike him. Am I right in thinking that you have recently introduced another dog and there have been some issues with him around resource guarding?
I think maybe you need to cut Wilson a bit of slack at the moment until things have settled down a bit.
Edited by moorx on Saturday 2nd April 20:21
I'll be honest I hadn't thought of that angle. Usually, despite his size and presence he's an absolute pu5sy, and he'd retreat if he knows he's he trouble!
We have introduced one 3 months ago yes. They have a good rhythm together, but he was close by so maybe he was reacting to him. It was Sarah getting gobbed off that concerned me, he'd normally protect her to the hilt.
I was chatting to S about it this aft, and said 'it's one thing him growling at you, but what if a dog of his physical stature were to try that stunt with a child, you could have a hysterical mother demanding he's put to sleep. Maybe I'm over thinking it....
We're all friends again now though
Edited by Fermit The Krog and Sarah Sexy on Saturday 2nd April 22:54
Turn7 said:
Without wanting to sound all sexist, IME, sometimes a dog needs to hear a very stern NO! that the fairer gender cannot sometimes quite command.
Certainly had that here once or twice - Milo quite often took the piss out of MrsT7 until I questioned his motives.....
Yes, agree 100%. A stern no, often in a 'growly' voice will be all that's needed to stop him in his tracks. And no, nothing sexist, he can take the micky out of Sarah, and bless her, she does struggle to sound stern with her feminine tone Certainly had that here once or twice - Milo quite often took the piss out of MrsT7 until I questioned his motives.....
Fermit The Krog and Sarah Sexy said:
I was chatting to S about it this aft, and said 'it's one thing him growling at you, but what if a dog of his physical stature were to try that stunt with a child, you could have a hysterical mother demanding he's put to sleep. Maybe I'm over thinking it....
We're all friends again now though
No, I don't think you're necessarily over thinking it, not with things how they are at the moment; you are right to be cautious about other people's reactions. We have a responsibility to others and to our dogs to keep them all safe. You say that he can sometimes be funny with strangers and other dogs. Out of interest, does he wear a muzzle when out and about? I know that some people dislike them but I think they are useful for sending the message that some dogs need space.We're all friends again now though
Glad to hear you're all friends again
Fermit The Krog and Sarah Sexy said:
Turn7 said:
Without wanting to sound all sexist, IME, sometimes a dog needs to hear a very stern NO! that the fairer gender cannot sometimes quite command.
Certainly had that here once or twice - Milo quite often took the piss out of MrsT7 until I questioned his motives.....
Yes, agree 100%. A stern no, often in a 'growly' voice will be all that's needed to stop him in his tracks. And no, nothing sexist, he can take the micky out of Sarah, and bless her, she does struggle to sound stern with her feminine tone Certainly had that here once or twice - Milo quite often took the piss out of MrsT7 until I questioned his motives.....
moorx said:
Fermit The Krog and Sarah Sexy said:
Turn7 said:
Without wanting to sound all sexist, IME, sometimes a dog needs to hear a very stern NO! that the fairer gender cannot sometimes quite command.
Certainly had that here once or twice - Milo quite often took the piss out of MrsT7 until I questioned his motives.....
Yes, agree 100%. A stern no, often in a 'growly' voice will be all that's needed to stop him in his tracks. And no, nothing sexist, he can take the micky out of Sarah, and bless her, she does struggle to sound stern with her feminine tone Certainly had that here once or twice - Milo quite often took the piss out of MrsT7 until I questioned his motives.....
I think with certain breeds the whole 'top dog' thing is true. You have to show them in no uncertain terms you are in charge of the pack and not them.
I remember a guy at work telling me about a huge Rottweiler his brother had, that begun to growl and snap at him. Trying to assert itself as top dog in the house.
He literally had to give it a big thrashing everytime it tried it on. After a while it accepted he was top dog and all was well.
I'm not suggesting for one minute you should follow this course of action, but was just sharing the experience of others.
I remember a guy at work telling me about a huge Rottweiler his brother had, that begun to growl and snap at him. Trying to assert itself as top dog in the house.
He literally had to give it a big thrashing everytime it tried it on. After a while it accepted he was top dog and all was well.
I'm not suggesting for one minute you should follow this course of action, but was just sharing the experience of others.
My only other thought/concern would be whether Wilson might be picking up on the resource guarding behaviour of your other dog?
Was your girlfriend trying to take his ball from him? In those situations I always try to offer something of higher value in exchange for the item you want (in my dogs' case, this is always food!)
Was your girlfriend trying to take his ball from him? In those situations I always try to offer something of higher value in exchange for the item you want (in my dogs' case, this is always food!)
NinjaPower said:
I think with certain breeds the whole 'top dog' thing is true. You have to show them in no uncertain terms you are in charge of the pack and not them.
I remember a guy at work telling me about a huge Rottweiler his brother had, that begun to growl and snap at him. Trying to assert itself as top dog in the house.
He literally had to give it a big thrashing everytime it tried it on. After a while it accepted he was top dog and all was well.
I'm not suggesting for one minute you should follow this course of action, but was just sharing the experience of others.
'had to give it a big thrashing'? I'd say he was very lucky - one that the dog did not attack him (and I wouldn't have blamed it if it had) and two that he wasn't charged with animal cruelty. Poor dog.I remember a guy at work telling me about a huge Rottweiler his brother had, that begun to growl and snap at him. Trying to assert itself as top dog in the house.
He literally had to give it a big thrashing everytime it tried it on. After a while it accepted he was top dog and all was well.
I'm not suggesting for one minute you should follow this course of action, but was just sharing the experience of others.
One reason why I'd love a Doberman but wouldn't be able to have one is my wife is fully aware that she'd be hard pressed to force her hand with the dog - she's tiny with a squeaky voice. It is important, and she has no experience in dealing with confident breeds.
It's a tough one OP and one that requires a fair bit of experience from all.
There's some good advice here already and I think you'll be fine with a firm hand.
It's a tough one OP and one that requires a fair bit of experience from all.
There's some good advice here already and I think you'll be fine with a firm hand.
moorx said:
My only other thought/concern would be whether Wilson might be picking up on the resource guarding behaviour of your other dog?
Was your girlfriend trying to take his ball from him? In those situations I always try to offer something of higher value in exchange for the item you want (in my dogs' case, this is always food!)
You're there, she was taking it off him. Unfortunately there is nothing higher to him than his 'big blue ball'. "Wilson, want a steak?" He'd turn you down if he's playing with it. We joke that he calls it 'my precious' in a Golum voice!Was your girlfriend trying to take his ball from him? In those situations I always try to offer something of higher value in exchange for the item you want (in my dogs' case, this is always food!)
Fermit The Krog and Sarah Sexy said:
You're there, she was taking it off him. Unfortunately there is nothing higher to him than his 'big blue ball'. "Wilson, want a steak?" He'd turn you down if he's playing with it. We joke that he calls it 'my precious' in a Golum voice!
Hmmm, that's a little more tricky then! Fortunately, there is no toy on earth that is better than food to my sighthounds!moorx said:
No, I don't think you're necessarily over thinking it, not with things how they are at the moment; you are right to be cautious about other people's reactions. We have a responsibility to others and to our dogs to keep them all safe. You say that he can sometimes be funny with strangers and other dogs. Out of interest, does he wear a muzzle when out and about? I know that some people dislike them but I think they are useful for sending the message that some dogs need space.
Glad to hear you're all friends again
He doesn't. I actually worry the opposite, that some can get the wrong impression with a muzzle, that he must be all Daily Mail dangerous.Glad to hear you're all friends again
I remember when I got my last (now late) dog Henry, a Dobe x Dane. As you can imagine a brute of a dog, but meek as anything. When I posted him on FB, the Blue Cross ad, 'just adopted this boy, he's lovely!' the amount of simpletons posting like 'he's lovely? He's got a muzzle on!' really opened my mind to the short sightedness of some. Henry always wore a muzzle as his chase instinct was almost Greyhound strong, and if he ever caught a rabbit (or god forbid a tiny dog) he could kill it, potentially, and this wasn't worth the risk.
Wilson however is always on a halty, and Sarah in particular gives people a wide berth by walking in to the road when out. Without bigging myself up I being stronger can keep him in check on the lead if he plays up.
Edited by Fermit The Krog and Sarah Sexy on Sunday 3rd April 13:22
Hasn't all that 'top dog' / leader of the pack / 'show them who's boss' stuff been thoroughly discredited by now? Dogs know you're not a dog and the wolf pack rules don't apply.
A guarding-breed dog growling because you went to take something off it doesn't seem unusual. I don't believe leaving outside on the naughty step would teach it anything. Punishing it for growling might mean it only learns not to growl!
Positive reinforcement is the way forward. It takes time, but teach the dog that giving you the ball leads to a positive thing, be it a treat, play time, whatever the dog enjoys most
Plenty of good advice on the net. http://yourdogsfriend.org/help/resource-guarding-g...
A guarding-breed dog growling because you went to take something off it doesn't seem unusual. I don't believe leaving outside on the naughty step would teach it anything. Punishing it for growling might mean it only learns not to growl!
Positive reinforcement is the way forward. It takes time, but teach the dog that giving you the ball leads to a positive thing, be it a treat, play time, whatever the dog enjoys most
Plenty of good advice on the net. http://yourdogsfriend.org/help/resource-guarding-g...
essayer said:
Hasn't all that 'top dog' / leader of the pack / 'show them who's boss' stuff been thoroughly discredited by now? Dogs know you're not a dog and the wolf pack rules don't apply.
how on earth could you prove or disprove it? speak dog?so much pseudo science with dog training. It's a wonder people and dogs have existed for centuries upon centuries without these first world issues.
t... I mean lovely boy!
essayer said:
Hasn't all that 'top dog' / leader of the pack / 'show them who's boss' stuff been thoroughly discredited by now? Dogs know you're not a dog and the wolf pack rules don't apply.
Indeed it has https://positively.com/dog-training/myths-truths/p...Sadly, there are still high-profile proponents such as Cesar Millan.
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