Fear

[guillemot]

Hi folks, looking for some advice please if possible, and apologies for the long post.

We have a 10.5 year old rescue dog (papers said lab/collie X, but more like shepherd/collie X with some lab in there somewhere) and we've had him since he was about 15 months old.



His history - as much as we know - is that 80 odd dogs were kept semi feral in a field, and seemingly beaten and/or starved at various points. They were all rescued and sent to various centres around the UK. When we got him he was a shadow of himself, never been on a lead or had toys etc., but he really blossomed. Apart from a relentless love of guarding the front door through noise which we've managed to keep under control he's a lovely, soft natured dog and will tend to remove himself when he's uncomfortable rather than confronting.

What's odd is that although he used to get stressed when he was younger about certain things, it was never such things as noise (fireworks, bird scarers etc). In fact he would trot happily down the garden for a pee when there were rockets being fired off next door when we first had him. I always thought we might see a return to the slightly nervous dog we adopted all those years ago but now the slightest thunder/firework/bird scarer will trigger a full blown terror episode of shaking and wide eyes. The real issue is that it's started to happen whilst out on a walk (bird scarer) and he's starting to become semi uncontrollable - particularly for my mother who walks him the most - he lives with her, not me.

You might remember me posting about him going through liver cancer scares earlier this year - weirdly this whole lack of confidence and fear phase seemed to coincide with all the messing about the poor dog went through this time last year, he's never quite settled.

I guess what I'm asking is whether there may be a way to coach him out of this behaviour? We've tried the usual distraction techniques and rewarding etc., but it seems to be getting worse not better so I think outside help is the way to go. We're based in Cambridgeshire and I'm trying to find some info about trainers locally. I looked on the page that Moorx recommended, but can't seem to work out what OCN means, and whether it means much. As much as I'm sure all dog owners say this, I think it really is imperative we get the right trainer from the off, he's a little particular in the way he works.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

[moorx]

Oh poor boy

It does sound as though the health scare/medical investigations may have unsettled him - is he fit and well now?

I didn't know, but looking on Google, OCN simply seems to stand for Open College Network, so it's just a body that awards qualifications.

As you say, it is important to find the right trainer/behaviourist - with fear based issues, you definitely don't want anyone who will use aversive techniques (punishment) as this will either make the problem worse or cause him to 'shut down' - which might initially seem like a 'miracle cure' but is not addressing the problem.

With his age, I also wonder whether it is possible he is suffering from dementia? I've had a dog who developed unsettled behaviour (whining, pacing, etc) as he got older. We gave him Aktivait (a natural supplement) with good results - although I would always suggest you consult a vet before starting any supplements/medications.

I'm no behaviour expert - in your position, I would post on this dog rescue forum about the problem and/or ask for recommendations of trainers/behaviourists near to you:

http://www.dogpages.org.uk/forums/index.php?showfo...

Good luck and please keep us updated - he looks a smasher

[guillemot]

moorx said:

It does sound as though the health scare/medical investigations may have unsettled him - is he fit and well now?

Yes thankfully. Long story and I won't go into too many details but after having a calloused lump removed from his elbow as they weren't certain of its cause he was then referred up as liver levels were a bit high, and ended up being put through a lot of further scans, bloods, generals and a definitive prognosis (which I doubt helped our state of mind) before we were then referred where they established that actually it's completely normal for him at his age and we're not going to lose him to liver cancer. Fairly sure all the upheaval was the trigger, but relief all round and just want to try and get him settled properly now.

moorx said:

With his age, I also wonder whether it is possible he is suffering from dementia? I've had a dog who developed unsettled behaviour (whining, pacing, etc) as he got older. We gave him Aktivait (a natural supplement) with good results - although I would always suggest you consult a vet before starting any supplements/medications.

I'm inclined to think it's not that purely because the behaviour isn't there all the time and seems to be due to certain things rather than a temperament change elsewhere, but I'm not a vet so will ask that question, thanks. I'm reluctant to just go down the gentle sedation route if there's a sort of coach/ behaviour option that may help him, but ultimately we need to take whichever route works for him. My mum has a diffuser (I think) at home to help him settle, which seemed to change nothing, and we tried something in the car for a while but actually simply exposure to car journeys seems to have settled that and he's now quite chilled without it.

moorx said:

Good luck and please keep us updated - he looks a smasher

Thanks - will do! He is a super dog, and it's so nice to see how far he's come given the gibbering wreck we brought home - lots of dogs rehomed from the same place didn't make it. I think that's why it's so distressing to watch him regress now. I hate seeing him so wound up and be unable to explain everything will be OK.

Thanks for your advice.

Edited by guillemot on Monday 4th January 15:41

[bexVN]

I would be inclined to think that age may be playing a part in this aswell. Poss sped up due to the recent treatments.

There are some natural products that may be worth considering Aktivait being the first one I can think of. Has better results the sooner it is started. These don't sedate or anything like that they aren't a drug, it is a combination of supplements to improve brain function. A chat to your vet to check they'd be OK with this (though it is not a prescription so shouldn't be a problem)

My friends lab developed noise phobia's when he got older, never had concerns as a younger dog. just the beep from the washing machine would start him pacing and trembling, then the mobile phone beeps etc, it took quite a while to figure the triggers. My friend bought new appliances that didn't make those sort of sounds!!

There are diets produced to help with age related behavioural changes aswell hills b/d is one.

Edited by bexVN on Monday 4th January 18:29

[guillemot]

bexVN said:

I would be inclined to think that age may be playing a part in this aswell. Poss sped up due to the recent treatments.

There are some natural products that may be worth considering Aktivait being the first one I can think of. Has better results the sooner it is started.

My friends lab developed noise phobia's when he got older, never had concerns as a younger dog. just the beep from the washing machine would start him pacing and trembling, then the mobile phone beeps etc, it took quite a while to figure the triggers. My friend bought new appliances that didn't make those sort of sounds!!

There are diets produced to help with age related behavioural changes aswell hills b/d is one.

I had assumed the lack of change of behaviour elsewhere didn't necessarily mean age. Oh. Frustratingly, every time he's been in for something they've all come out thinking he's actually about 4, I guess I was trying to deny he's actually getting old.

I think we'll head into the vet's and get him checked and see what they recommend to tackle it. Thank you both very much for the advice. Will report back if we get anywhere!


ETA - sorry, hadn't thought aktivait as Moorx was suggesting, was a sedative, simply that we've had that suggestion in the past to cope with behaviours, but always been able to coach/reward our way out of patterns. Just not this time. I'm quite happy to try natural stuff, no reservations there.

Edited by guillemot on Monday 4th January 18:40

[bexVN]

Physically he can still look great but mental faculties can still be affected sadly. Because it is to do with the brain the type of triggers can vary a lot..

Just out of interest what did you do to help him through the fireworks?

[guillemot]

bexVN said:

Physically he can still look great but mental faculties can still be affected sadly. Because it is to do with the brain the type of triggers can vary a lot..

Just out of interest what did you do to help him through the fireworks?

Yes, that makes sense. I think a trip to the vet's is in order.

We tried the diffuser (I think it's called - adaptil is it?) on recommendation from the vet's leading up to them and turned up the volume inside, kept him busy a la the distraction method. We can cope with those, if he's with us and inside, he's scared but ok and comfort-able if that makes sense. On a walk, it's a different kind of fear it seems, one we can't distract no matter what we try it seems. Frustrating.

Edited by guillemot on Monday 4th January 18:58

[bexVN]

That all sounds good and probably helped. ADAPTIL do a collar to help outside. I would also use Kalmaid, half hr before going out (great for those who aren't good in the car) again a natural supplement so no drug and can be triple dosed (may be better doing double dose first) contain Tryptophan.

[guillemot]

Didn't know about the collar, that might be really helpful. Don't think have come across Kalmaid, will also have a look.

I think our next step is vet's. Thank you again, really useful stuff to think about and to suggest.

Edited by guillemot on Monday 4th January 19:16

[moorx]

Something else which may be worth considering (and discussing with your vet) is Melatonin. I have no personal experience but it is used by several people with noise phobic dogs on that dog forum I mentioned. Here is one recent thread:

http://www.dogpages.org.uk/forums/index.php?showto...

And a slightly older one:

http://www.dogpages.org.uk/forums/index.php?showto...

As I say, I've not used it myself, but other people seem to have had good results - I wonder whether Bex can add anything?

One other thing occurs to me (and again, Bex may wish to comment) but I wonder whether his hearing is deteriorating and whether that might make him more phobic to sudden loud noises?

Again, just thinking out loud really....

Hope your vet is able to help.

[guillemot]

That's also great - thanks. Will be good to go armed with options and be able to discuss them. Aktivait looks good, just researching various things now. Any luck we'll be able to get him sorted again.

Those threads are pretty much exactly where we are with him - that first Spanish rescue dog, behaviours sound the same. Really really useful Moorx, thank you so much for digging those out.

Edited by guillemot on Monday 4th January 20:04

[moorx]

Yes, Aktivait definitely helped Joe in his later years (although he was 12 when I adopted him ). But like all medications/supplements, what can help one dog may not help another.

I've also used DAP (Adaptil) collars on several of my rescue dogs, including Joe. I'm never really sure whether/how much they help, but they won't do any harm.

[bexVN]

Funnily enough I was talking about Melatonin the other day with a vet, I have never seen it used and not really sure how it works, the Vet felt there were better alternative products (such as Aktivait) but that's not to say it shouldn't be considered. I know in humans it is used to counter jet lag effects so I could see how it could be used to help.

Re hearing, my experience is more that noise related phobia's tend to lessen when hearing deteriorates not worsen, not so aware of dogs developing a phobia due to hearing impairment but of course that doesn't mean it couldn't.

[brycheiniog1]

If you are in South Cambs, I can recommend a dog behaviorist here: http://www.do-behave.co.uk/

I am sure TJ will be happy to have a chat with you and will tell you if she thinks she can help.

Disclaimer: TJ has a Dog day care businesses as well (http://www.normansdogdaycare.co.uk/) and looks after our dog 2-3 days a week. Just a very happy customer .