Animals ability of free thought
Discussion
Jus watching life of PI on tv and has got me thinking, has an animal ever demonstrated evidence of free thought?
I.e. An ape asking in sign language when it's trainer will be back?
I watch our dog sometimes and it looks like he's deep in thought so made me wonder what is he thinking about? Are animals clever enough to look at the moon and wonder what it is for example.
He brings his lead to us sometimes so is that his communicating 'can I go for a walk?'
I.e. An ape asking in sign language when it's trainer will be back?
I watch our dog sometimes and it looks like he's deep in thought so made me wonder what is he thinking about? Are animals clever enough to look at the moon and wonder what it is for example.
He brings his lead to us sometimes so is that his communicating 'can I go for a walk?'
Is bringing a lead a true free thought or a learned behaviour?
It is an interesting question and difficult to know the answer. I suppose very few of us actually have genuine free thought as at some point something will have influenced us to some extent, so I guess it depends on how you truly define 'free thought'.
That's about as deep as I can go...esp on New Years Day
It is an interesting question and difficult to know the answer. I suppose very few of us actually have genuine free thought as at some point something will have influenced us to some extent, so I guess it depends on how you truly define 'free thought'.
That's about as deep as I can go...esp on New Years Day
I think a dog fetching its lead is definitely a communication of what it wants to do. If a dog had the right vocal chords would it mimic us and say walkies instead of fetching its lead?
It's funny really how we think in English. Without a developed language, how could we contemplate or think anything through?
It's funny really how we think in English. Without a developed language, how could we contemplate or think anything through?
There's an argument that none of us have free will / thought, let alone dogs! Our concept of free will is an illusion, and our actions have already been decided by our sub conscience before we're aware of them.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Free-Will-Sam-Harris/dp/14...
Happy New Year
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Free-Will-Sam-Harris/dp/14...
Happy New Year
What about Koko the Gorilla or Panbanisha? the Bonobo, being taught sign language? They would come out with some really creepy stuff sometimes.
I seem to remember Koko being shown pictures of silver backs to see what she thought and she kind of mooched through them in a real 'Nah...nah...nope' kind of way and then stopped on one of them and signed that she liked him a lot. Seemed a bit too 'human'.
There seem to be quite a few Youtube clips of animals doing things like feeding each other when only one can reach food, often seems to be cross species too but that is probably because it is a more appealing clip to us easily trained humans!
I seem to remember Koko being shown pictures of silver backs to see what she thought and she kind of mooched through them in a real 'Nah...nah...nope' kind of way and then stopped on one of them and signed that she liked him a lot. Seemed a bit too 'human'.
There seem to be quite a few Youtube clips of animals doing things like feeding each other when only one can reach food, often seems to be cross species too but that is probably because it is a more appealing clip to us easily trained humans!
Yeah that what I was thinking, I think the most likely animal to show it would be a signing gorilla.
I'm sure I've seen that it would be considered free thought if the gorilla could put some word together to form a question he wanted to know the answer too rather than repeating or mimicking something they've been taught.
So physically signing 'how long will you be gone?' Or something like that would be free thought
I'm sure I've seen that it would be considered free thought if the gorilla could put some word together to form a question he wanted to know the answer too rather than repeating or mimicking something they've been taught.
So physically signing 'how long will you be gone?' Or something like that would be free thought
CaptainMorgan said:
I must spend hours staring at my dog wondering how much he understands, what he's thinking about. I'd love to see the world through his eyes.
Rather more than most people would think I suspect. I'd love to see the world through his eyes. One of ours will ask for your food. She will look at you, lick her lips, then look at the plate of your food..... A friend of ours (who is an ex-kennel maid) said she's never seen a dog act that way?!?!
Chantek the Orangutan used to conceal his escape routes. This documentary about him is fascinating:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDiu7JX-Ess
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDiu7JX-Ess
smn159 said:
CaptainMorgan said:
I must spend hours staring at my dog wondering how much he understands, what he's thinking about. I'd love to see the world through his eyes.
If he's anything like my Lab he's probably thinking, 'when is this creature going to provide me with more food?' I'd love to see the world through his eyes. As a side issue I find it interesting what he watches on the TV. Dogs might gain his interest, particularly if they're making a sound. Cats definitely for a short time. But that reindeer sleigh special on BBC just before Christmas where they showed two hours of an old post service route. Parked himself in front of the box for ages, mesmerised.
I know it's all pack behaviour to a certain extent but I'm currently in Northern Argentina and have befriended a number of local stray dogs. The behaviour they exhibit when you have shown them attention is truly touching, as if they escort you down the road.
I stayed at a ranch and there was one old massive dog, not sure what breed, possibly Bull Mastiff, but a gruff old thing who seemed to avoid everyone and just sat on his own. Not long for this world I reckon.
I didn't ever interact with him directly as he was quite standoffish and I didn't entirely trust him, but did get friendly with the other ranch dogs. That night, whilst sitting having a drink, he came over to me completely un-requested and leaned against me affectionately, eventually sleeping on my feet.
It made me wonder whether dogs do communicate with each other's about stuff, or if they just sense 'good' people independently. .
I stayed at a ranch and there was one old massive dog, not sure what breed, possibly Bull Mastiff, but a gruff old thing who seemed to avoid everyone and just sat on his own. Not long for this world I reckon.
I didn't ever interact with him directly as he was quite standoffish and I didn't entirely trust him, but did get friendly with the other ranch dogs. That night, whilst sitting having a drink, he came over to me completely un-requested and leaned against me affectionately, eventually sleeping on my feet.
It made me wonder whether dogs do communicate with each other's about stuff, or if they just sense 'good' people independently. .
smn159 said:
There's an argument that none of us have free will / thought, let alone dogs! Our concept of free will is an illusion, and our actions have already been decided by our sub conscience before we're aware of them.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Free-Will-Sam-Harris/dp/14...
Happy New Year
I remember reading about that some time ago. It's really interesting. And quite unnerving to be aware of the theory when it comes to makes a decision... Especially when you consider the possibility that most choices are made based on emotion, and not cold rational.http://www.amazon.co.uk/Free-Will-Sam-Harris/dp/14...
Happy New Year
As my dear old grannie used to say `dogs know`.
They have clear emotions and moods. They understand to ask for food, drink, walk, toilet. They sense your mood, whether a doggy cuddle is required or to keep away.
I swear my old dog could tell the time. Always got up the same time and went to bed the same time. Whatever the season so not governed by light.
Amazing creatures, so sad some people get fun out of making them suffer.
They have clear emotions and moods. They understand to ask for food, drink, walk, toilet. They sense your mood, whether a doggy cuddle is required or to keep away.
I swear my old dog could tell the time. Always got up the same time and went to bed the same time. Whatever the season so not governed by light.
Amazing creatures, so sad some people get fun out of making them suffer.
The_Burg said:
As my dear old grannie used to say `dogs know`.
They have clear emotions and moods. They understand to ask for food, drink, walk, toilet. They sense your mood, whether a doggy cuddle is required or to keep away.
I swear my old dog could tell the time. Always got up the same time and went to bed the same time. Whatever the season so not governed by light.
Amazing creatures, so sad some people get fun out of making them suffer.
I agree with all this, our eldest retriever is sat on my feet watching Citizen Kane, at dramatic moments she puts her paw on my foot until the film tension eases, at no point does she look away from the screen so all subliminal They have clear emotions and moods. They understand to ask for food, drink, walk, toilet. They sense your mood, whether a doggy cuddle is required or to keep away.
I swear my old dog could tell the time. Always got up the same time and went to bed the same time. Whatever the season so not governed by light.
Amazing creatures, so sad some people get fun out of making them suffer.
It is a darn sight easier to suss out than what our other halves are thinking for sure!
But seriously, just looking at the eyes and facial expressions of an ape has always made me wonder just what they comprehend but cannot communicate across species to us. I am convinced we do not give other species credit for the level of free thought they have.
Just watch a dog having an active dream. The legs going, noises etc. So if they can do that memory or fantasy stuff subconsciously whilst asleep, then why can't they be exploring things in their quieter moments. And that look they give you when they have done wrong... The kind of brain racking "oh s
t, what do I need to do to make it up to him" - quite different to the other half again who just makes it all your fault
Fascinating.
But seriously, just looking at the eyes and facial expressions of an ape has always made me wonder just what they comprehend but cannot communicate across species to us. I am convinced we do not give other species credit for the level of free thought they have.
Just watch a dog having an active dream. The legs going, noises etc. So if they can do that memory or fantasy stuff subconsciously whilst asleep, then why can't they be exploring things in their quieter moments. And that look they give you when they have done wrong... The kind of brain racking "oh s
t, what do I need to do to make it up to him" - quite different to the other half again who just makes it all your fault Fascinating.
I think we're all guilty of anthropomorphising dog reaction's and behaviour somewhat. It's been proven that "the guilty look" is a reaction to the owner's behaviour rather than remorse.
On the other hand there's some things which can't be explained, or is it just learned behaviour where we've missed the learning bit. For example when someone in the house is upset, our Golden goes to his spot, fetches the blanket he's had and slept with every night since 7 weeks old, gives the person the blanket and then attempts to lick away the tears. Is this giving something that he sees as really valuable to him and makes him feel better, or is it something that he's learnt sets things to 'normal ' and gets him a fuss and attention?
On the other hand there's some things which can't be explained, or is it just learned behaviour where we've missed the learning bit. For example when someone in the house is upset, our Golden goes to his spot, fetches the blanket he's had and slept with every night since 7 weeks old, gives the person the blanket and then attempts to lick away the tears. Is this giving something that he sees as really valuable to him and makes him feel better, or is it something that he's learnt sets things to 'normal ' and gets him a fuss and attention?
FiF said:
I think we're all guilty of anthropomorphising dog reaction's and behaviour somewhat. It's been proven that "the guilty look" is a reaction to the owner's behaviour rather than remorse.
On the other hand there's some things which can't be explained, or is it just learned behaviour where we've missed the learning bit. For example when someone in the house is upset, our Golden goes to his spot, fetches the blanket he's had and slept with every night since 7 weeks old, gives the person the blanket and then attempts to lick away the tears. Is this giving something that he sees as really valuable to him and makes him feel better, or is it something that he's learnt sets things to 'normal ' and gets him a fuss and attention?
I don't know but awwww all the same, that can only help someone to feel better On the other hand there's some things which can't be explained, or is it just learned behaviour where we've missed the learning bit. For example when someone in the house is upset, our Golden goes to his spot, fetches the blanket he's had and slept with every night since 7 weeks old, gives the person the blanket and then attempts to lick away the tears. Is this giving something that he sees as really valuable to him and makes him feel better, or is it something that he's learnt sets things to 'normal ' and gets him a fuss and attention?
Very fair to question what we really mean by "free thought". Without having a pretty concrete definition you can't really ask if some animal can do it or not. I'd suggest that the key attribute is the ability to plan. To think about the future you need to have the mental capacity to do "what if?" thinking; you need to be able to have a model in your head of those features of the outside works that you care about and you also need to have the ability to think of yourself as being a thing in that world.
Apparently dogs have almost no capacity for planning. They can read and react to human emotion remarkably well. They probably don't have a model of it, so they don't "understand" it in anything like they way that we do. We can imagine ourselves having the same emotion as the person we're looking at. We can imagine what that emotion might cause us to do. We can then choose to do something now in an attempt to control how the future unfolds, e.g. we might offer someone a handkerchief to make them feel better and reduce the chance of them dribbling on the sofa.
Some animals appear to have these planning skills. Quite surprisingly to me at least, not just some apes either, but corvens too. They're the family of birds that include crows, rooks and ravens. If you put some white paint on the underside of their beak and put them in front of a mirror, once they see the paint in the mirror they'll try to remove it. That means they recognise that the bird in the mirror is them self. It is an astonishing result. Virtually no animals can do this. So the bird has a mental model of itself as a thing that exists in the world it sees. Hard to see why that would be useful unless the bird is trying to plan is future. So can the bird think about problems and plan solutions? Astonishingly, answer seems to be yes. There's a great experiment where you put some food in the bottom of a clear tube next to a pile of bits of wire of various lengths. The bird looks at the tube, looks at the wire, picks out a piece of wire of the right length, bends the end into a hook and uses it to pull the food out of the tube. Not by trial and error; by looking and thinking.
Apparently dogs have almost no capacity for planning. They can read and react to human emotion remarkably well. They probably don't have a model of it, so they don't "understand" it in anything like they way that we do. We can imagine ourselves having the same emotion as the person we're looking at. We can imagine what that emotion might cause us to do. We can then choose to do something now in an attempt to control how the future unfolds, e.g. we might offer someone a handkerchief to make them feel better and reduce the chance of them dribbling on the sofa.
Some animals appear to have these planning skills. Quite surprisingly to me at least, not just some apes either, but corvens too. They're the family of birds that include crows, rooks and ravens. If you put some white paint on the underside of their beak and put them in front of a mirror, once they see the paint in the mirror they'll try to remove it. That means they recognise that the bird in the mirror is them self. It is an astonishing result. Virtually no animals can do this. So the bird has a mental model of itself as a thing that exists in the world it sees. Hard to see why that would be useful unless the bird is trying to plan is future. So can the bird think about problems and plan solutions? Astonishingly, answer seems to be yes. There's a great experiment where you put some food in the bottom of a clear tube next to a pile of bits of wire of various lengths. The bird looks at the tube, looks at the wire, picks out a piece of wire of the right length, bends the end into a hook and uses it to pull the food out of the tube. Not by trial and error; by looking and thinking.
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