What is my dog doing? Darting at feet??
Discussion
Can anyone explain this behaviour?
I have a very nervous lurcher from a rescue home. She has just turned one and has a few issues that we are constantly working on, and I'm using a well-regarded behaviourist to try and ensure we are doing everything correctly but whilst I would say I'm pretty confident I know what's driving most of the behaviour, there is one thing she occasionally does that I can't explain.
Today for example, we were walking in the woods. She's normally very good off-lead and comes when she is called etc etc. Today, a man was coming the other way wearing a hat and big jacket. This would normally be something I would see as a possible 'moment' if we were on a pavement and space was tight, as she gets very scared and often barks at men dressed like this (I'm assuming she feel threatened, and on-lead, so trapped). I saw her freeze and go into 'that' mode, where her attention is entirely on him, rather than me and rather than giving him a wide berth, she held her ground and as he got close, made a sort of dart at his feet.
Of course, I was trying to get her attention back to me the whole time as I could see this coming a mile off, but she's done this once or twice before and I'm at a loss to understand what she's doing.
It doesn't seem like an attack, as she's fast enough that if she had wanted to bite, she just would. But it's a definite lunge and the bloke did a quick sidestep and she immediately lost interest and came back to me. I put her on the lead and apologised to the bloke and checked she hadn't bitten him and he was absolutely fine and very understanding about it (it's a dog walking park) but I still don't really know what she's doing.
It definitely seems like an aggressive (or at least defensive) move, it's very fast but she doesn't follow it up so is it just for display?
She's a timid wee thing and very submissive in most situations so I'm pretty sure most of her bad behaviour is motivated by fear but I'm at a loss to explain this.
Has anyone come across similar before and knows what's happening?
I have a very nervous lurcher from a rescue home. She has just turned one and has a few issues that we are constantly working on, and I'm using a well-regarded behaviourist to try and ensure we are doing everything correctly but whilst I would say I'm pretty confident I know what's driving most of the behaviour, there is one thing she occasionally does that I can't explain.
Today for example, we were walking in the woods. She's normally very good off-lead and comes when she is called etc etc. Today, a man was coming the other way wearing a hat and big jacket. This would normally be something I would see as a possible 'moment' if we were on a pavement and space was tight, as she gets very scared and often barks at men dressed like this (I'm assuming she feel threatened, and on-lead, so trapped). I saw her freeze and go into 'that' mode, where her attention is entirely on him, rather than me and rather than giving him a wide berth, she held her ground and as he got close, made a sort of dart at his feet.
Of course, I was trying to get her attention back to me the whole time as I could see this coming a mile off, but she's done this once or twice before and I'm at a loss to understand what she's doing.
It doesn't seem like an attack, as she's fast enough that if she had wanted to bite, she just would. But it's a definite lunge and the bloke did a quick sidestep and she immediately lost interest and came back to me. I put her on the lead and apologised to the bloke and checked she hadn't bitten him and he was absolutely fine and very understanding about it (it's a dog walking park) but I still don't really know what she's doing.
It definitely seems like an aggressive (or at least defensive) move, it's very fast but she doesn't follow it up so is it just for display?
She's a timid wee thing and very submissive in most situations so I'm pretty sure most of her bad behaviour is motivated by fear but I'm at a loss to explain this.
Has anyone come across similar before and knows what's happening?
I would say that she has had a previous incident of some sort with a man wearing similar - so it triggers bad memories when she sees them. A friend had a small dog that used to do it (it was a rescue as well), seemed it's previous owner liked to give it a kick. The dog only ever did it if someone had willies on - a trigger obviously.
What does your behaviourist suggest?
I would get her back to you sooner (if she's off the lead) when you see someone that fits the description / trigger action. Walk a slightly different direction, a bigger arc so more space, cross the road if you can, and then lots of praise if she's ignored the person.
Well done for taking her on though
What does your behaviourist suggest?
I would get her back to you sooner (if she's off the lead) when you see someone that fits the description / trigger action. Walk a slightly different direction, a bigger arc so more space, cross the road if you can, and then lots of praise if she's ignored the person.
Well done for taking her on though
He suggests the same - and actually if I see these things in time (cyclists are another classic trigger) then there is no problem. We have a "Place!" command where she sits down, focuses on me and lets the trouble pass without getting her excitement level up.
It's more if she's a bit ahead of me, or we're on lead and she gets surprised at someone coming round a corner. I'm hoping it is just a matter of time but you can see her edginess and I just want her to be a happy dog.
Completely accept it's on me to manage and prevent these situations before they happen but I believe there is a balance between actually giving her some quality of life, allowing her to run and keeping her on a short leash just in case. It's difficult but she's superb so we shall persevere!
It's more if she's a bit ahead of me, or we're on lead and she gets surprised at someone coming round a corner. I'm hoping it is just a matter of time but you can see her edginess and I just want her to be a happy dog.
Completely accept it's on me to manage and prevent these situations before they happen but I believe there is a balance between actually giving her some quality of life, allowing her to run and keeping her on a short leash just in case. It's difficult but she's superb so we shall persevere!
We have a rescue too and she will get very defensive towards small dogs and people carrying 'sticks'. Again we'd assumed that she'd had previous bad experiences with them and I don't think she'd ever get over it. Even now if I pick up anything long and thin, essentially stick like, she will cower and run away from me. Seeing the way she instantly puts her head down, tail between her legs and runs away says to me that she was probably beaten as a pup (Scummy owners probably didn't realise she was deaf and thought she was ignoring them). We've tried reassuring her, giving treats and showing her there's nothing to be scared of but it doesn't work. Although she cowers with us, with strangers it's full on hackles up, defensive mode.
As for getting her attention, well she's deaf and there's not much that will refocus a 35kg bull terrier other than using a head harness and steering her away a bit like a horse, it doesn't shift her attention but it does mean I have better control of her. Granville's advice is sound though, change your direction so you don't cross paths or end up being boxed in and generally try not to get into a position where they will be put into a position to be defensive. I've even taking to walking her at late at night to avoid issues that we'd run into on a regular basis during the early evening.
We just continue to reinforce the good behavior and hope for the best. But when you think that some of the stuff rescue dogs have gone through and still turn out to be loving and sociable then I feel they deserve a little slack.
As for getting her attention, well she's deaf and there's not much that will refocus a 35kg bull terrier other than using a head harness and steering her away a bit like a horse, it doesn't shift her attention but it does mean I have better control of her. Granville's advice is sound though, change your direction so you don't cross paths or end up being boxed in and generally try not to get into a position where they will be put into a position to be defensive. I've even taking to walking her at late at night to avoid issues that we'd run into on a regular basis during the early evening.
We just continue to reinforce the good behavior and hope for the best. But when you think that some of the stuff rescue dogs have gone through and still turn out to be loving and sociable then I feel they deserve a little slack.
d that had her before we got her.Playing devils advocate (while asking a genuine question), why not address the problem rather than avoidance? If you see a big coated hat and welly wearing person and you change direction, could you not be compounding the fact to the dog that there is a problem and make things worse?
I don't buy in to the 'something must have happened as a puppy' that many so-called behaviourists come out with. I dare say this can be attributed to many an odd response you get from your dog in some situations, but it can't be blamed for everything.
Avoidance and Distraction techniques are good, but there's no substitute to tackling the cause of the problem.
I got both my dogs as pups, my male at 9 weeks old so can only put some of his quirks down to things I've done wrong or 'just because'. A prime example is that my male had never seen a Hi-Vis jacket, yet when he was about 2 years old, he saw one and went mental at the bloke wearing it. He discovered out of nowhere, a new hatred for Hi-Vis Jackets, if he see's somebody wearing one, he goes bonkers.
What do I do now when I see somebody walking towards me in a hi-vis jacket? Nothing, I just walk past them and he ignores them. Dog ownership shouldn't be stressful, so why would I want to have to keep avoiding all these different scenarios rather than deal with them?
This was a simple fix. I bought a hi-vis jacket and started putting it on when I fed the dogs. I also did training with them while wearing it. To them, a hi-vis jacket is a normal thing and he doesn't go lunging at people.
As the probability of running in to this situation again is pretty much guaranteed at this time of year, why not do something similar? If you trust the dog and can simulate a test safely without setting the dog up for failure, why not try and fix the problem?
I don't buy in to the 'something must have happened as a puppy' that many so-called behaviourists come out with. I dare say this can be attributed to many an odd response you get from your dog in some situations, but it can't be blamed for everything.
Avoidance and Distraction techniques are good, but there's no substitute to tackling the cause of the problem.
I got both my dogs as pups, my male at 9 weeks old so can only put some of his quirks down to things I've done wrong or 'just because'. A prime example is that my male had never seen a Hi-Vis jacket, yet when he was about 2 years old, he saw one and went mental at the bloke wearing it. He discovered out of nowhere, a new hatred for Hi-Vis Jackets, if he see's somebody wearing one, he goes bonkers.
What do I do now when I see somebody walking towards me in a hi-vis jacket? Nothing, I just walk past them and he ignores them. Dog ownership shouldn't be stressful, so why would I want to have to keep avoiding all these different scenarios rather than deal with them?
This was a simple fix. I bought a hi-vis jacket and started putting it on when I fed the dogs. I also did training with them while wearing it. To them, a hi-vis jacket is a normal thing and he doesn't go lunging at people.
As the probability of running in to this situation again is pretty much guaranteed at this time of year, why not do something similar? If you trust the dog and can simulate a test safely without setting the dog up for failure, why not try and fix the problem?
Edited by Autopilot on Wednesday 28th October 09:29
I have to say Autopilot, I broadly agree. Of course I'm sure things can happen that affect a dog later but my worry is that avoidance will reinforce the 'danger' like you say. Also, I don't want my wee dog to be a worried, stressed dog so would rather get to the root cause of these things with the behaviourist and get them sorted.
I suppose what I'm asking really, is 'are these sort of darts an attack?' It would make it much easier to be calm and walk on if I was certain that nobody was going to get a nipped foot or anything. As it stands, my worry is that one of these darts would become a bite and that's obviously not on at all.
I completely get that they take their cue from your emotional state, but I need to satisfy myself that what she's doing is safe/playful before I can really relax and address it.
So what is this behaviour? What is she trying to do/achieve?
As an aside, the problem with recreating the situations, is that she is so deferent to me, that whatever I do she will accept. I even put on full motorcycle leather and a helmet in the house and she immediately dropped to the ground and rolled over. I then called her over in my voice and she meekly came over with her tail between her legs. If I'd been someone else she'd have gone mental, I'm quite sure!
I suppose what I'm asking really, is 'are these sort of darts an attack?' It would make it much easier to be calm and walk on if I was certain that nobody was going to get a nipped foot or anything. As it stands, my worry is that one of these darts would become a bite and that's obviously not on at all.
I completely get that they take their cue from your emotional state, but I need to satisfy myself that what she's doing is safe/playful before I can really relax and address it.
So what is this behaviour? What is she trying to do/achieve?
As an aside, the problem with recreating the situations, is that she is so deferent to me, that whatever I do she will accept. I even put on full motorcycle leather and a helmet in the house and she immediately dropped to the ground and rolled over. I then called her over in my voice and she meekly came over with her tail between her legs. If I'd been someone else she'd have gone mental, I'm quite sure!
It sounds like from your description the action is a defensive, aborted snap. It had the desired effect - the man sidestepped! There was probably no intention of contact, let alone biting.
You need a stooge. Or a bunch of them. Large, hat and coat wearing men who walk up and then dispense treats and calm fuss.
You need a stooge. Or a bunch of them. Large, hat and coat wearing men who walk up and then dispense treats and calm fuss.
cwis said:
It sounds like from your description the action is a defensive, aborted snap. It had the desired effect - the man sidestepped! There was probably no intention of contact, let alone biting.
You need a stooge. Or a bunch of them. Large, hat and coat wearing men who walk up and then dispense treats and calm fuss.
It sounds like it, I agree. Though I hope it wouldn't become a proper one if there was no sidestep!You need a stooge. Or a bunch of them. Large, hat and coat wearing men who walk up and then dispense treats and calm fuss.
I hadn't thought about enlisting some pals - good idea. An additional difficulty is she'll be absolutely fine with 9 people in hats and then go daft at the 10th! Horrendously inconsistent! From memory she barked at me once. I was coming up the stairs carrying big sailing holdalls in each hand. My OH was in front, opening the back door and she clearly felt trapped between the closed door and the approaching me. She barked and from memory I growled back and she immediately dropped to the floor and rolled over so not much of an offence to work with there!
Disastrous said:
From memory she barked at me once. I was coming up the stairs carrying big sailing holdalls in each hand. My OH was in front, opening the back door and she clearly felt trapped between the closed door and the approaching me. She barked and from memory I growled back and she immediately dropped to the floor and rolled over so not much of an offence to work with there!
It sounds like her bark is quite literally worse than her bite! It probably wouldn't develop more - your incident shows that she tried a bit of "front" when you inadvertently threatened her, and when that had the wrong result she tried total capitulation instead (which worked nicely!).She needs to learn an acceptable and reliable escape route away from a threatening situation (in her perception). If she learns "do nothing and look away" works, 100% of the time, then that is what she will do.
My dog is terrified of other dogs (on first meeting). She was a bait dog (we think - her face is covered in scars) and a puppy machine prior to that so she had no socialisation.
She used to try the "go in teeth first" approach when we initially got her, and this slowly mellowed into "bark loudly and not pull TOO hard on the lead towards them" which in turn is trending towards "bark loudly and look large, and then look for an acceptable escape route with help from human". She saw a horse recently for the first time and tried the "wuff and scarper" technique which obviously I allowed to work nicely. It's a slow process - we've had her three years.
Hopefully we can trends towards "look away and do nothing and trust human to moderate contact" - she's got the rest of her life to practice.
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