Tortoises rehomed but neglected - legal advice needed
Discussion
Hope someone can give some advice – wasn’t sure if this was best here or in SP&L.
My mum (68) has had tortoises since she was in her teens. 25+ years ago when we lived in Jersey, she bred tortoises, and at one point we had ~70. She was heavily involved with the Reptile section of what is now Durrell Wildlife Park. In short, theres not much she doesn’t know about them.
In the past 25 years back in England she stopped breeding and just kept her 11 “keepers” – adults she’d had since she was a teen herself, along with a few that she had taken from people that needed rehoming along the years.
At her age (living alone) she was finding it a bind keeping them over the summer months when they were awake – both in terms of cost and also the time required (not being able to have holidays, or even really a night away unless I could look after them). With heavy heart she investigated options to rehome, adamant she wanted them kept together. The best option we found was a wildlife sanctuary (open to the public) in Kent that agreed to take all 11, and we took them down late last summer.
We were donating them, and we also made a £400-500 donation to help with the feeding and the provision on a new run that the management told us they would be planning to develop. For the time being they would be kept inside, in a large square run in (effectively) a makeshift shed. Mum wasn’t happy about that, but believed it would be a temporary measure. Mum was extremely sad to see them go, but was told “if you ever change your mind you could have them back”.
She’d been on at me for ages about going to visit – I thought it would make her sad seeing them, but we went down on Saturday. When we met with the owner/manager and asked how they were we were told “well unfortunately two have died with the sniffles…”
We went to the same back room where the larger central enclosure had now changed to a very small L-shaped run around one corner of the room. Some straw but no food and no water (at that moment anyway). Only 4 of mums tortoises were there, and we were told that the other 5 living ones were in Lincolnshire where they have been going on a rotational basis staying with an ex-employee so that they get some outside time…
The 4 we saw on Saturday had lost a lot of weight. 1-2 had a visible nasal discharge (runny nose) – mum has never ever had a tortoise with this. In fact I can only remember 1-2 dying in my lifetime.
Mum is very non-confrontational so we thanked her for letting come to the staff areas and we left, saying we’d call and come back when the others were back – but later mum was extremely emotional and devastated that they are in such bad conditions and in a poor state of health. Yesterday we agreed that she should call and we’d take them back with a view to feed them up before hibernation, while looking for a more suitable permanent home.
Mum called today, and the “office manager” (who we met on Saturday) refused to let her speak to the owner unless she explained the reason for the call. When mum expressed her concerned the manager virtually exploded at her, saying “yes I know the accommodation isn’t as good as we had hoped for, we’re extremely underfunded and have x-thousand animals here to manage…” When mum said “right, so it would probably make sense that I ease your life by taking them back” she responded “we cant let you have them back without ensuring you have adequate facilities to look after them” (seriously…) They suggested they would need a vet to visit mums house and confirm its ok. We have nothing to fear in that respect of course, but would a random vet (near Woking) get involved in this?
They said they would call mum back tomorrow, and “want a 3rd party on the call” on their side to discuss the situation.
Something is extremely fishy in my opinion. Ive told mum to try and stay calm on the call and if they start being aggressive/threatening/unpleasant to say that she wants all further communication to be written.
Anyone have any idea how to proceed, assuming the call tomorrow doesn’t go well? Is it worth contacting the RSPCA?
Would welcome any advice – I hate seeing my mum so upset… she thought she was doing the right thing by them, considering some of them are already ~100 years old and very likely to outlive her…
My mum (68) has had tortoises since she was in her teens. 25+ years ago when we lived in Jersey, she bred tortoises, and at one point we had ~70. She was heavily involved with the Reptile section of what is now Durrell Wildlife Park. In short, theres not much she doesn’t know about them.
In the past 25 years back in England she stopped breeding and just kept her 11 “keepers” – adults she’d had since she was a teen herself, along with a few that she had taken from people that needed rehoming along the years.
At her age (living alone) she was finding it a bind keeping them over the summer months when they were awake – both in terms of cost and also the time required (not being able to have holidays, or even really a night away unless I could look after them). With heavy heart she investigated options to rehome, adamant she wanted them kept together. The best option we found was a wildlife sanctuary (open to the public) in Kent that agreed to take all 11, and we took them down late last summer.
We were donating them, and we also made a £400-500 donation to help with the feeding and the provision on a new run that the management told us they would be planning to develop. For the time being they would be kept inside, in a large square run in (effectively) a makeshift shed. Mum wasn’t happy about that, but believed it would be a temporary measure. Mum was extremely sad to see them go, but was told “if you ever change your mind you could have them back”.
She’d been on at me for ages about going to visit – I thought it would make her sad seeing them, but we went down on Saturday. When we met with the owner/manager and asked how they were we were told “well unfortunately two have died with the sniffles…”
We went to the same back room where the larger central enclosure had now changed to a very small L-shaped run around one corner of the room. Some straw but no food and no water (at that moment anyway). Only 4 of mums tortoises were there, and we were told that the other 5 living ones were in Lincolnshire where they have been going on a rotational basis staying with an ex-employee so that they get some outside time…
The 4 we saw on Saturday had lost a lot of weight. 1-2 had a visible nasal discharge (runny nose) – mum has never ever had a tortoise with this. In fact I can only remember 1-2 dying in my lifetime.
Mum is very non-confrontational so we thanked her for letting come to the staff areas and we left, saying we’d call and come back when the others were back – but later mum was extremely emotional and devastated that they are in such bad conditions and in a poor state of health. Yesterday we agreed that she should call and we’d take them back with a view to feed them up before hibernation, while looking for a more suitable permanent home.
Mum called today, and the “office manager” (who we met on Saturday) refused to let her speak to the owner unless she explained the reason for the call. When mum expressed her concerned the manager virtually exploded at her, saying “yes I know the accommodation isn’t as good as we had hoped for, we’re extremely underfunded and have x-thousand animals here to manage…” When mum said “right, so it would probably make sense that I ease your life by taking them back” she responded “we cant let you have them back without ensuring you have adequate facilities to look after them” (seriously…) They suggested they would need a vet to visit mums house and confirm its ok. We have nothing to fear in that respect of course, but would a random vet (near Woking) get involved in this?
They said they would call mum back tomorrow, and “want a 3rd party on the call” on their side to discuss the situation.
Something is extremely fishy in my opinion. Ive told mum to try and stay calm on the call and if they start being aggressive/threatening/unpleasant to say that she wants all further communication to be written.
Anyone have any idea how to proceed, assuming the call tomorrow doesn’t go well? Is it worth contacting the RSPCA?
Would welcome any advice – I hate seeing my mum so upset… she thought she was doing the right thing by them, considering some of them are already ~100 years old and very likely to outlive her…
That's grim - we've always signed re-homing agreements for ones we've taken in.
You could see if anyone at either the tortoise trust or tortoise protection group could help maybe? They are pretty much all just keepers though.
I would be worried with them moving them about especially with the risk of cross-contamination between breeds.
I guess as long as the shed they are in is dry, heated correctly and lit with UV they won't come to too much harm.
You could see if anyone at either the tortoise trust or tortoise protection group could help maybe? They are pretty much all just keepers though.
I would be worried with them moving them about especially with the risk of cross-contamination between breeds.
I guess as long as the shed they are in is dry, heated correctly and lit with UV they won't come to too much harm.
manic47 said:
I guess as long as the shed they are in is dry, heated correctly and lit with UV they won't come to too much harm.
Dry, yes, but not particularly warm, considering Saturday was pretty hot. There was one lamp in the L-shaped run - not sure it was a UV lamp. When she picked them up their eyes were closed. Had they been outside they'd have been racing round like crazy in the sun.They had just built an outside run for a group of larger sulcata tortoises - but even they had no food, and were just picking at a few scraps of grass on an otherwise barren dirt patch.
(Mum's never ate grass - they always had wild dandelion and tomatoes/lettuce/wet bread etc)
Yep, think a call to the tortoise trust might be in order. Honestly, she cant afford to be getting solicitors involved - she was giving them up because her pension wasn't stretching far enough
It sounds like they don't know what they are doing TBH.
We use 300 watt UV bulbs and the shed is usually at least 28 degrees (mixture of African torts)
I think the bulbs are about £80 each, I dread to think what the running costs are...
If they've got no money at present, I can only assume they didn't look into how much/what Sulcata's can eat.
We use 300 watt UV bulbs and the shed is usually at least 28 degrees (mixture of African torts)
I think the bulbs are about £80 each, I dread to think what the running costs are...
If they've got no money at present, I can only assume they didn't look into how much/what Sulcata's can eat.
KFC said:
“we cant let you have them back without ensuring you have adequate facilities to look after them”
Why not just let them check then? It seems like the path of least resistance to getting the result you want.
They can come whenever they want.Why not just let them check then? It seems like the path of least resistance to getting the result you want.
But (and im hearing this 2nd hand through my mum) it sounds to me like something the woman just said on impulse, rather than some documented process they go through as a matter of course.
Mum just reminded me that one of her cousins is an RSPCA home checker, so shes going to speak to her tomorrow and see how we can get a home report done.
Update - spoke to mum earlier. She got a phonecall from the owner today (not the b
hy "office manager") who was as pleasant as she had been whenever we had met her before - she apologised for the call mum had had yesterday with the other woman, and had explained to her that "this is Mrs XXX, these are her tortoises, we don't need to go through all the standard protocols etc"
She agreed with mum that, on balance, on a day like today, the tortoises would be better off in a sunny garden, than inside. She admitted that it was unlikely she would ever be able to have them on show to the public - which is another way of saying they would spend their lives inside, except for these odd holidays up north to the ex-employee's garden.
When the other tortoises are returned to the zoo, she will be taking them all to an assessment at a vets, then we will fix up a time to collect them, probably in the next week or two. Hopefully the illness that killed 2 of them can be cured for the other 9.
Of course, this means mum is back to square one, looking for a long-term rehoming solution, and I think she will have to accept that the group will have to be broken up. However, it went a lot better than she had expected, and shes happy that this is the best thing for her tortoises for the time being.
Thanks for your replies/advice. Hopefully that's it for now - in the future there may be another thread asking for rehoming organisation suggestions etc
hy "office manager") who was as pleasant as she had been whenever we had met her before - she apologised for the call mum had had yesterday with the other woman, and had explained to her that "this is Mrs XXX, these are her tortoises, we don't need to go through all the standard protocols etc"She agreed with mum that, on balance, on a day like today, the tortoises would be better off in a sunny garden, than inside. She admitted that it was unlikely she would ever be able to have them on show to the public - which is another way of saying they would spend their lives inside, except for these odd holidays up north to the ex-employee's garden.
When the other tortoises are returned to the zoo, she will be taking them all to an assessment at a vets, then we will fix up a time to collect them, probably in the next week or two. Hopefully the illness that killed 2 of them can be cured for the other 9.
Of course, this means mum is back to square one, looking for a long-term rehoming solution, and I think she will have to accept that the group will have to be broken up. However, it went a lot better than she had expected, and shes happy that this is the best thing for her tortoises for the time being.
Thanks for your replies/advice. Hopefully that's it for now - in the future there may be another thread asking for rehoming organisation suggestions etc
Mexican cuties said:
Any update?
No, not yet - just waiting for them to call mum back to confirm a) when the rest of them have been brought down south, and b) when they have had their vet assessment and we can pick them up.Looks like yours truly is going to have to build a new hut for them. My carpentry skills are pretty special (needs).
Update… not good news. We went down last weekend (8th Aug) to pick up 5 of the remaining 9 tortoises – the other 4 were supposedly with this woman up north who still couldn’t bring them down because “her husband is a lorry driver, stuck at Calais”.
When we got there mum immediately noticed one of the 5 wasn’t hers. We brought 4 home, but once there and she was cleaning them, realised one of these wasn’t hers too (though it looked very similar). Despite it being a very warm day and fresh food given to them, none of them seemed keen to eat. After a few days mum took the large female to a local vet – an XRay showed she was egg-bound, and a course of injections given to her which would force the eggs out. The other tortoises were given vitamin injections, and the vet was disturbed by their weight and general condition – the bill came to several hundred. So far she has only laid 2 of the 5 eggs inside, and is still not eating, so mum will be taking her back to the vets this week.
Many phone calls and emails have followed in the last week, with mum trying to find out when she can give back the one that isn’t hers, and collect the rest of the ones that are – each time she has been palmed off, ignored, or placated with promises of a call back.
Yesterday she received an email with a Word document full of pictures – dead tortoises from their freezer (awaiting cremation) of which 4 were hers – including her favourite little one which she has had for over 50 years. They also sent pictures of the ones up North – of which only one is mums.
So, to summarise, we were told of her original 11, 2 were dead, the rest (9) would be returned.
In fact, at least 4 are dead, 3 are with mum, 1 is up north, and 3 are completely unaccounted for. We can only assume they are either dead and already disposed of (worst case), or have been rehomed somewhere (best case).
My mum is inconsolable and blaming herself for the death of the tortoises. Im trying to tell her that anyone would think that an animal sanctuary would be an ideal place to let them live out their days… We’re just going to try and get the rest of ours back, then we will be contacting the RSCPA to see if they think it is a case of neglect, or just complete incompetence and poor management of animals.
When we got there mum immediately noticed one of the 5 wasn’t hers. We brought 4 home, but once there and she was cleaning them, realised one of these wasn’t hers too (though it looked very similar). Despite it being a very warm day and fresh food given to them, none of them seemed keen to eat. After a few days mum took the large female to a local vet – an XRay showed she was egg-bound, and a course of injections given to her which would force the eggs out. The other tortoises were given vitamin injections, and the vet was disturbed by their weight and general condition – the bill came to several hundred. So far she has only laid 2 of the 5 eggs inside, and is still not eating, so mum will be taking her back to the vets this week.
Many phone calls and emails have followed in the last week, with mum trying to find out when she can give back the one that isn’t hers, and collect the rest of the ones that are – each time she has been palmed off, ignored, or placated with promises of a call back.
Yesterday she received an email with a Word document full of pictures – dead tortoises from their freezer (awaiting cremation) of which 4 were hers – including her favourite little one which she has had for over 50 years. They also sent pictures of the ones up North – of which only one is mums.
So, to summarise, we were told of her original 11, 2 were dead, the rest (9) would be returned.
In fact, at least 4 are dead, 3 are with mum, 1 is up north, and 3 are completely unaccounted for. We can only assume they are either dead and already disposed of (worst case), or have been rehomed somewhere (best case).
My mum is inconsolable and blaming herself for the death of the tortoises. Im trying to tell her that anyone would think that an animal sanctuary would be an ideal place to let them live out their days… We’re just going to try and get the rest of ours back, then we will be contacting the RSCPA to see if they think it is a case of neglect, or just complete incompetence and poor management of animals.
ali_kat said:
bexVN said:
I wouldn't wait. They need evidence get RSPCA involved NOW
Is there anyone else they should involve do you think Bex?The RSPCA aren't the speediest...
Local Press perhaps?
Press possibly but would need to be careful about how it is reported.
It couldn't hurt to discuss with police and seek advice at least.
In meantime Op, his Mum and their vet need to make detailed documentation about exactly what has happened and what state the tortoises are in.
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