Crate training, should we continue?

Crate training, should we continue?

Author
Discussion

VR6time

Original Poster:

1,656 posts

217 months

Saturday 2nd July 2011
quotequote all
Hi All.

Im in need of some encouragement from the pet people on PH please.

Basil Beagle is 6 months old now, and whilst he is loved very much, I am in a bit of a dark place over what to do. He is still waking us up from his crate downstairs mid-way through the night for a pee, and now, has decided by 6 am regardless of what time he went to bed, he is up and ready to come out, The Missus and I are exhausted, The extra excercise has helped us both, we have both lost half a stone from walks, but mentally we are shot, having a go at each other over dumb things and generally knackered.

We are asking ourselves should we let him sleep on his mat in our room, so he doesnt feel the need to howl to come out for a cuddle at 6 am,

During the day he is fine in his crate, we take it in turns to come home from work at lunch, and he goes back in his crate happily, I even set up a time lapse app to see if he was going wild on his own for 4 hours at a time, and he was fine.

of the evenings, he is fine too, apart from some destruction of the trees in the gardedn when we are not looking he is good as gold, but I worry he is not getting enough of our time being locked in his crate over night and during work time, Do you think, we should continue to crate him overnight, or relent and let him share our room.

Either way, we are sort of thinking, christ, whee did our social life go? Our friends are all off doing other things, and we cant really go out mid week unless it is dog friendly, While we wouldn't trade him for the world, what we really want to know is will it get better? and should we continue crating him, or let him in our room?

For those who let their dogs into their room, what impact does this have on intamacy between you and your partner?

as ever, any advise apreciated.




Catz

4,812 posts

218 months

Saturday 2nd July 2011
quotequote all
We gave up on the crate. Our pup slept in it but we left the door open however she was locked in the kitchen. At about 4 months she took to waking up at 5.30am and howling for our attention. It just got too much so we decided to leave the kitchen door open. After that she'd still sleep downstairs but when she woke up she'd come for a wander into the bedroom to say hello then go away again. She sometimes comes for a snooze on the bed, something I said she would never do. laugh
She was house trained at this point.

Stevenj214

4,941 posts

235 months

Saturday 2nd July 2011
quotequote all
A rule of thumb is that dogs can hold it for 1 hour for every month of their age. So if his last toilet is 12pm then 6am sounds about right for now. My border collie could hold it a bit better than that if required.

If he gets out after 12pm then the 6am wakeup may just be learned behaviour (he has learned if he howls, he gets out) which will need some training to get out of him.

VR6time

Original Poster:

1,656 posts

217 months

Saturday 2nd July 2011
quotequote all
Stevenj214 said:
A rule of thumb is that dogs can hold it for 1 hour for every month of their age. So if his last toilet is 12pm then 6am sounds about right for now. My border collie could hold it a bit better than that if required.

If he gets out after 12pm then the 6am wakeup may just be learned behaviour (he has learned if he howls, he gets out) which will need some training to get out of him.
He gets let out at half 3 each night. so it cant be the bladder, and we wait until he stops howling before going to the crate.

Stevenj214

4,941 posts

235 months

Saturday 2nd July 2011
quotequote all
VR6time said:
He gets let out at half 3 each night. so it cant be the bladder, and we wait until he stops howling before going to the crate.
In that case, I would try a week or so getting myself up at 6am and being active, coming and going wherever his crate is, with him still inside. Any howling/whining etc would get a firm 'No' or 'Quiet' and then when you are ready to let him out (8am or whenever) and he is quiet, let him out.

IANADogTrainer

As for letting him sleep outwith the crate, different dogs do different things. Mine was crate trained and even when he has access to the bedroom he will still usually sleep in the hall or living room.

Jasandjules

70,510 posts

236 months

Saturday 2nd July 2011
quotequote all
So he's in the crate all day and all night?


VR6time

Original Poster:

1,656 posts

217 months

Saturday 2nd July 2011
quotequote all
Jasandjules said:
So he's in the crate all day and all night?
No,

Morning, hour walk then 4 hrs crate,
Lunchtime walk, 30 mins, Afternoon 3 hrs crate,evening, 1-2 hr walk nightime crate. lucky if we get 6 hrs.

trippyjohn

98 posts

160 months

Saturday 2nd July 2011
quotequote all
to much walking time sounds daft but hes to fit.He,s only six months old so all that walking will damage him as his joints and muscles are still developing.Shorter walks would be better for him untill he is ready for longer walks just ignore him during the night with you going down everytime he shouts hes got you in his pocket and dont move him upsstairs big no no

Lippitt

869 posts

216 months

Saturday 2nd July 2011
quotequote all
It does sound like he is having an awful lot of crate time. Does he really need to be in it so much during the day? It could be why he is rejecting it at night- just a thought.

Jasandjules

70,510 posts

236 months

Saturday 2nd July 2011
quotequote all
Lippitt said:
It does sound like he is having an awful lot of crate time. Does he really need to be in it so much during the day? It could be why he is rejecting it at night- just a thought.
That was what I was thinking. On top of that if the OP is out much of the day then at night is when they are home so the dog wants company then....

OP you are walking him too much for a puppy as well. I know it's good to tire them out but he's a puppy, training him would tire him out just as much.

Oh, and we only used a crate to toilet train, after the mutt could go all night, the crate was left open but the dog also had access to the rest of the house, and she'd sleep in there a bit, sometimes sleep in our room etc but she always "held it" until we got up in the morning.

Also, I could be completely wrong, but I thought I read you say that you let him out for cuddles if he complains at 6am? If so, then that's also why he's doing it, he wants company/attention and he is getting it by making noise at 6am.

pacman06

254 posts

166 months

Saturday 2nd July 2011
quotequote all
Sounds like you were after a bird and ended up with a dog. Sure you don't mean eagle, and not beagle?

Karyn

6,053 posts

175 months

Sunday 3rd July 2011
quotequote all
Aw, naughty Basil, driving you to despair!

But it will get better; it just sounds like, at the moment, you've got a few issues. Nothing that can't be fixed though!

One thing, though; 1-2 hours for a 6 month pup is far too much exercise; the recommended "dose" is 5 minutes per month of age. Obviously, it's not fixed at that, but much more and there's a risk of damaging their (as yet not fully developed) joints and muscles, which can lead to problems like arthritis in later life.

And it sounds like he spends a lot of time in the crate. Maybe leave him in a room with his crate in, rather than confined to just his crate? We leave Ella (4 months) in a room; her crate is in there, and a toy (varied daily). At night, she's let out last thing (usually about half 10, 11), then she can hold it until 6am, which is when we get up anyway, during the week.

At the weekend, she'll now let out one or two little barks to wake us up; she gets let out, has her morning piddle and her breakfast, and is then perfectly content to go back to sleep until mid-morning. She's usually fast asleep by the time you reach the stairs to go back up, to be honest!

I think that if Basil wasn't spending his entire day in the crate, it might be easier to work out a similar sort of pattern?



PM if you want - I'm not trained like Bex or Mrs Grumpy, but I'm more than willing to listen (well, read!) your woes and console that they'll get better! wink And share my experience of Ella!

Superficial

753 posts

181 months

Sunday 3rd July 2011
quotequote all
As it stands, I think the time you're out at work plus night time is a long while for a puppy to be in a crate. I'm all for crate training and all four of my dogs who I used them with now see them as a sanctuary and that alone was worth it, but your pup is spending the majority of his time in the crate so it's no surprise he's getting bored and wants some attention.

If he isn't destructive I would be looking at letting him stay out the crate for longer, with plenty of stimulating toys to keep his mind busy.

Puppies are really hard work, but it will get easier so persevere. The social life will fall back into place when Basil is old enough to hold his bladder a bit longer and be left alone.

bexVN

14,682 posts

218 months

Sunday 3rd July 2011
quotequote all
I would say far too much crate time for him. Why is he crated during the day? Can he not have a room.

I have always said Beagles are not easy pets, they are very stubborn, very hard to train esp for an inexperienced owner and their favourite pastime is howling!

Letting him into your room is your own personal choice. We do with our whippet have done for 7 years, he sleeps beautifully in his own bed and generally only gets up when we do. If he gets restless during the night it is usually because he's not feeling well or he's heard something outside.

We never used a crate for him, did consider it but never felt the need in the end.

Have to be honest Mrs G will be better to give you advice than me on this. however I would say the waiting til he stops howling is obviously not working so why not go down before he kicks off. Say 5.45am get to him before he feels the need to howl for attention, let him out, give him breakfast and let him out again and maybe not put him back in the crate. Gradually lengthen this time to 6am etc hopefully until the time you want to get up. Don't make a big fuss when you let him out, pat on the head, good morning type stuff but not ott play/ excitement.

As for the 3am, that may be just more time, again go down, quietly, quick pat on the head out to garden, keep lights dimmed, let him have a wee, pat on the head and quiet good boy, back into crate and goodnight.

You need to drastically cut his crate time down during the day, start investing in some thinking dog toys.

I'm not saying my advice is the standard but it is what I would try and actually it is what I did in a way with my 15 month old son!! In the morning when I heard him stir I'd try to get to him before he felt the need to cry for attention, as such he now tends to babble and chat to himself when he wakes up rather than cry probably because he does not need to stress that I won't go to him unless he cries.

ETA Good luck, sleep deprivation is not easy to deal with! but it will get better but make sure you both do the same, inconsistency will make matters worse.

One more thought! How light does it get in the room he is in? We've had a lot of very sunny mornings with the light stream through, this would wake him up earleir than he may have been doing previously and possibly gettign warm.

Edited by bexVN on Sunday 3rd July 21:53

VR6toFlat6

Original Poster:

1,656 posts

217 months

Monday 4th July 2011
quotequote all
Thanks for all replies. General consensus is too much walking too much crate time. The walking we were semi aware of, but wanted to make sure the time we spend with him during the workign week is as rewarding as possible, and assumed he would let us know what was too much.

Those walks will be reduced no problems, and thinking about it, may be part of our solution. By 9pm he is usually crashed out snoozing, so in reality, by 6 am he has been asleep (on and off) for 9 hrs. Less walking might mean he is active until later in the evening, and give us more time training, playing.

As for crating during the day. We were under the impression that this was the right thing to do, as everything we have read lists the crate as equivilant to his bedroom.

We have an open plan lounge, so to leave the crate open, means he has roam of the house, and so far he has chewed speaker cables, phone chargers and the underneath of the sofas, when out of eyesight, so to leave his crate open during the day, would result in all sorts of carnage, which we obviously want to avoid.

However, we have tried on a few occasions shutting him in the (fairly large) kitchen, with his bed during the afternoon to break it up a bit. He freaked out, and when we returned, had not even touched his kibble which was spread around to give him something to sniff out, and had managed to spill his water, chew the doorframe, and his toys were in the same possition they were left in. So we chalked that one down as a bad call, as he seemed far more settled in his crate.

Im guessing we will have to introduce the kitchen in short bursts like when we introduced the crate, and get him to associate it with chilling out, and that we will always come back.

pacman06

254 posts

166 months

Monday 4th July 2011
quotequote all
Can I ask what made you buy a puppy? You and your partner both work/busy etc did you not forsee chewed up cables and all the other related things that come with a puppy? Sorry if this sounds offensive but how about you get shoved in an appropriate sized cage and left on your own for umpteen hours on end. I would of thought this stage in the little fellas life was one of the most important.

Karyn

6,053 posts

175 months

Monday 4th July 2011
quotequote all
If he's not been in the kitchen on his own ever, then you probably do need to introduce it slowly to him. He'll be fine in there once he's used to it.

And wires and stuff can be tidied - just "puppy-proof" the room you leave him in!

I don't know how spritely Mr Basil is, but you could maybe consider some sort of "playpen" construction, if there's absolutely nowhere else you can leave him? Obviously, it'd have to quite sturdy, and higher than his bouncing abilities...?

I should have thought he'd be fine in the kitchen with his crate, though - once puppy-proofed, and once he's used to it. As long as it doesn't get too warm, etc.




VR6toFlat6

Original Poster:

1,656 posts

217 months

Monday 4th July 2011
quotequote all
pacman06 said:
Can I ask what made you buy a puppy? You and your partner both work/busy etc did you not forsee chewed up cables and all the other related things that come with a puppy? Sorry if this sounds offensive but how about you get shoved in an appropriate sized cage and left on your own for umpteen hours on end. I would of thought this stage in the little fellas life was one of the most important.
Crate Training is not a cruel method, and before you embark on it you need to realise that the crate is the dogs own haven, somewhere they can call their own special place. We needed pursuading that it was not cruel, but once it gells, it is second nature. The problem is people seem to view it as some sort of cage, and associate it with trapped circus animals or the like.

Basil loves his crate, he goes in it of his own accord, when we are both out the house for whatever reason, and the only time he ever seems to want to come out of there, is at 6am when he is up and about, or needs the toilet. The rest of the time, in or out of the crate, he is the happiest thing, and wants for nothing.

We work, most people in this country do aswell. That does not stop people getting pets of all kinds. and was not going to delay our getting of a dog until we are retired, or wealthy enough not to need work. We were well aware of the implications of a new pup, and have pledged to devote the next 15, or so years of our lives to this guy. Also, we are lucky enough to work very close to home, so can get home on staggered lunches, to give him time during the day aswell as before work and evenings, weekends. What would you suggest? that we take him back with a reciept, or give up work? Comments such as:

pacman06 said:
Sounds like you were after a bird and ended up with a dog. Sure you don't mean eagle, and not beagle?
... are not constructive. In addition, from your post history, I can see this is your first forray into the "all creatures great and small" section, and both of your posts are sarcasic and derogatory.

The advise I saught was to help our pup, despite what you read into (comments about chewed wires, we are more concerned with him frying his mind of on 12v power cables, than the replacement of material items). So what I asked was for the benefit and development of Basil.

Those that have offered constructive advice, it is welcomed, Thank you. We will work on introducing him to the Kitchen to break up the periods in the crate, and will report back.




Edited to temper the tone of my response.



Edited by VR6toFlat6 on Monday 4th July 13:16


Edited by VR6toFlat6 on Tuesday 5th July 10:28

trippyjohn

98 posts

160 months

Wednesday 6th July 2011
quotequote all
when shut in the kitchen you maybe should have invested in a baby gate so at least the pup could see beyond the closed door giving the pup a sense of open space

VR6toFlat6

Original Poster:

1,656 posts

217 months

Wednesday 6th July 2011
quotequote all
not possible really. double doors, but they are panel window jobs, so he can see through to lounge and he can see into garden out of the patio Windows, if it gets a bit warm there is a corner where it is cooler.