Council Contradicting Itself!
Discussion
Short synopsis of the background:
I am in the process of purchasing a house that has been sold with full planning permission for a side and rear extension. We are due to exchange early this week and complete the week after. I have a builder lined up to start before the end of the month and hope to be in by Xmas! Ambitious I know but “nothing ventured” etc. Plans are here, http://www.dover.gov.uk/planning/applic_net/detail... if anyone is interested. I have had an architect working on the buildings regulations submission and this was submitted for approval last week. I have changed a little of the internal layout, I was not keen on the planning submission, but am assured that this will not be a problem. The road next to the property is an unadopted road owned by the council who also own the grass verge.
The problem starts when I try to do the correct thing and ask permission to erect a temporary fence on the verge during the works. This is necessary to protect the public from the building works and to secure the site. Now I could just have put it up and by the time anyone noticed it would be being taken down but decided that I ought to do things properly and ask permission. Cue three days of being passed from pillar to post within the council to find the person who actually can give me permission. I finally end up in the correct department but the wrong desk! The person I am talking to is very helpful, sees the logic in the request and cannot see any reason why permission would not be granted. He even offers to walk my application across the office as that would make my life a little easier. So I write an e-mail to him outlining the work being done, including their own reference, and why I need to erect the temporary fence. I have now received an e-mail from the council stating that they believe the wall is a party wall and want a formal party wall agreement submission from me and have stated that they will not accept any overhang from my building. As you can see from the planning application the current wall has an overhang and the new wall replicated this due to the guttering required by building regs.
Now I have looked at the title deeds and they appear to indicate that the wall in question is built wholly on my land and that the boundary runs along the outside edge of this wall. The other party walls on the property are clearly noted in the deeds and this is not one of them. My solicitor agrees, in principle, and is looking at this in more detail.
Now the council have granted permission for this work, they have had the plans for over two years and have only just raised this as I went to them to ask permission for a temporary fence! If this is not a party wall then do they have the authority to change the terms of the planning permission that they themselves have granted? If they do legally demand that I change the plans then I will have to re-submit the application and effectively the house has been sold without the planning permission that I have paid for! It seems very petty to be quibbling about a gutter over a grass verge on an unadopted road but how far can the council take this? It is starting to be a major concern and could jeopardise my whole plan. Do I delay the exchange until this has been resolved?
Any thoughts gratefully received,
Jon
I am in the process of purchasing a house that has been sold with full planning permission for a side and rear extension. We are due to exchange early this week and complete the week after. I have a builder lined up to start before the end of the month and hope to be in by Xmas! Ambitious I know but “nothing ventured” etc. Plans are here, http://www.dover.gov.uk/planning/applic_net/detail... if anyone is interested. I have had an architect working on the buildings regulations submission and this was submitted for approval last week. I have changed a little of the internal layout, I was not keen on the planning submission, but am assured that this will not be a problem. The road next to the property is an unadopted road owned by the council who also own the grass verge.
The problem starts when I try to do the correct thing and ask permission to erect a temporary fence on the verge during the works. This is necessary to protect the public from the building works and to secure the site. Now I could just have put it up and by the time anyone noticed it would be being taken down but decided that I ought to do things properly and ask permission. Cue three days of being passed from pillar to post within the council to find the person who actually can give me permission. I finally end up in the correct department but the wrong desk! The person I am talking to is very helpful, sees the logic in the request and cannot see any reason why permission would not be granted. He even offers to walk my application across the office as that would make my life a little easier. So I write an e-mail to him outlining the work being done, including their own reference, and why I need to erect the temporary fence. I have now received an e-mail from the council stating that they believe the wall is a party wall and want a formal party wall agreement submission from me and have stated that they will not accept any overhang from my building. As you can see from the planning application the current wall has an overhang and the new wall replicated this due to the guttering required by building regs.
Now I have looked at the title deeds and they appear to indicate that the wall in question is built wholly on my land and that the boundary runs along the outside edge of this wall. The other party walls on the property are clearly noted in the deeds and this is not one of them. My solicitor agrees, in principle, and is looking at this in more detail.
Now the council have granted permission for this work, they have had the plans for over two years and have only just raised this as I went to them to ask permission for a temporary fence! If this is not a party wall then do they have the authority to change the terms of the planning permission that they themselves have granted? If they do legally demand that I change the plans then I will have to re-submit the application and effectively the house has been sold without the planning permission that I have paid for! It seems very petty to be quibbling about a gutter over a grass verge on an unadopted road but how far can the council take this? It is starting to be a major concern and could jeopardise my whole plan. Do I delay the exchange until this has been resolved?
Any thoughts gratefully received,
Jon
Can't see your plans, but....
Planning permission is one hurdle. It does not indicate you have the right/ability to build. There are other civil law considerations such as ownership/access of land (yes you can get PP on land you don't own), restrictive covenants, and the Party Wall Act, etc.
The Party Wall Act, which can be applicable to new work for a number of reasons (not just to work on an existing party wall), is entirely separate to building and planning control. It's just that your neighbour happens to be the council.
Just because you have an existing overhang (with probably an implied right/easement on one of various possible accounts) does not mean you have the right to create an on-going trespass with a new or replacement overhang - and again that has little to do with PP although technically the person that submitted the application should have filled out the land ownership certificate accordingly.
Either follow the PWA procedures, or, assuming there are no nearby structures, you can avoid the PWA by building the wall, including its foundations, entirely on your property. So step it back a bit.
This isn't the case of the council being at fault.
Planning permission is one hurdle. It does not indicate you have the right/ability to build. There are other civil law considerations such as ownership/access of land (yes you can get PP on land you don't own), restrictive covenants, and the Party Wall Act, etc.
The Party Wall Act, which can be applicable to new work for a number of reasons (not just to work on an existing party wall), is entirely separate to building and planning control. It's just that your neighbour happens to be the council.
Just because you have an existing overhang (with probably an implied right/easement on one of various possible accounts) does not mean you have the right to create an on-going trespass with a new or replacement overhang - and again that has little to do with PP although technically the person that submitted the application should have filled out the land ownership certificate accordingly.
Either follow the PWA procedures, or, assuming there are no nearby structures, you can avoid the PWA by building the wall, including its foundations, entirely on your property. So step it back a bit.
This isn't the case of the council being at fault.
If I were you I'd book a face to face meeting with one of the planning officers. I'm sure things will become much more straightforward and quicker if you're able to discuss all the issues face to face over a table directly with them rather than through a succession of letter via solicitors and architects. You'll find out exactly what their concerns are then and will be able to deal with them quickly.
Trevelyan said:
If I were you I'd book a face to face meeting with one of the planning officers.
As the PWA has nothing to do with Planning this would be a waste of time.Your link doesn't seem to be working so I haven't seen the plans. Building the wall you suggest in your post would still require a Line of Junction Notice. Projections over the boundary (such as guttering) would need to be agreed otherwise it is trespass (non-special foundations are the exception).
The Planning Consent has been granted and the time limit for appeal has past so I don't see where they are going to change it.
Sounds like you need to chat to a Party Wall Surveyor who can give you a view on what your specific responsibilities/liabilities are under the PWA.
ETA: You need to forget the notion that the Council is one body. It isn't.
Edited by mk1fan on Monday 6th September 10:44
dickymint said:
You could just alter the roof design to include an internal gutter - same size extension, no overhang.
My architect thinks that this would require, at worst, completely new submission and at best a formal application to amend the existing consent, as it would alter the roofline, this is unacceptable due to my own personal timelines, but thanks for the suggestion.mk1fan said:
Trevelyan said:
If I were you I'd book a face to face meeting with one of the planning officers.
As the PWA has nothing to do with Planning this would be a waste of time.mk1fan said:
Your link doesn't seem to be working so I haven't seen the plans. Building the wall you suggest in your post would still require a Line of Junction Notice. Projections over the boundary (such as guttering) would need to be agreed otherwise it is trespass (non-special foundations are the exception).
Link fixed in a subsequent post, sorry. I have spoken to my solicitor who agrees that the wall in question is not a party wall and there is no reason for it to become one under the plans. The boundary is the outside edge of the current wall and there is no building within 3 meters or 6 meters of a line at 45 degrees from the base of the foundation. Nothing in the planning permission changes this and thus the PWA does not apply. Now the current wall does have a flat roof that overhangs the grass verge by about 4 inches at single story level and the extension will have a gutter that will overhang by a fraction more but at the second story level. There might be a case for an encroachment but apparently the overhang is very slight and exists now. There is also no impact on the verge so I have been advised that a letter of consent would be the most that is required. mk1fan said:
The Planning Consent has been granted and the time limit for appeal has past so I don't see where they are going to change it.
I don’t see either, especially as they are claiming that they (the Council (as they are acting on it’s behalf)) have no knowledge of the application even though they (the Council) have given formal approval for the application!mk1fan said:
Sounds like you need to chat to a Party Wall Surveyor who can give you a view on what your specific responsibilities/liabilities are under the PWA.
ETA: You need to forget the notion that the Council is one body. It isn't.
I realise that asking a public body to act in a joined up way is a bit much but to actively fight permission granted by itself is really just wrong. I cannot sign a loan agreement with my company director hat on the then deny all knowledge just because I have gone home and am not just a homeowner!ETA: You need to forget the notion that the Council is one body. It isn't.
Edited by mk1fan on Monday 6th September 10:44
Still can't find your plans so still guessing really, but....
It doesn't matter how insignificant YOU think the overhang is, if the neighbour (whoever that is) objects, and they have stated that they do, you can't do it. End of. It will cause a technical difficulty when you come to sell if there is a dispute over it.
You also can't use their land for access to build unless you have their permission. End of.
If you are building adjacent the boundary, you're foundations will be under the neighbouring land and the PWA applies. Additionally you can't actually build ON the boundary without their written permission.
You need to adjust your thinking slightly to avoid causing yourself problems, going in with the wrong attitude - you need their cooperation and favour and if you approach it right, it probably can be resolved quickly and less formally (and less expensively in money & time) to your satisfaction.
It doesn't matter how insignificant YOU think the overhang is, if the neighbour (whoever that is) objects, and they have stated that they do, you can't do it. End of. It will cause a technical difficulty when you come to sell if there is a dispute over it.
You also can't use their land for access to build unless you have their permission. End of.
If you are building adjacent the boundary, you're foundations will be under the neighbouring land and the PWA applies. Additionally you can't actually build ON the boundary without their written permission.
You need to adjust your thinking slightly to avoid causing yourself problems, going in with the wrong attitude - you need their cooperation and favour and if you approach it right, it probably can be resolved quickly and less formally (and less expensively in money & time) to your satisfaction.
Jonleeper said:
I have spoken to my solicitor who agrees that the wall in question is not a party wall and there is no reason for it to become one under the plans. The boundary is the outside edge of the current wall and there is no building within 3 meters or 6 meters of a line at 45 degrees from the base of the foundation. Nothing in the planning permission changes this and thus the PWA does not apply.
1. Your solicitor needs to read Section 1 of the Act.2. The fact that there is a current trespass doesn't mean you can remove it and replace it with another one. Although you may be able to establish a default right to have guttering there the cost, time and energy required to do this don't seem to fit into your timescales.
ETA: To differentiate between two points.
Edited by mk1fan on Monday 6th September 16:09
Jonleeper said:
dickymint said:
You could just alter the roof design to include an internal gutter - same size extension, no overhang.
My architect thinks that this would require, at worst, completely new submission and at best a formal application to amend the existing consent, as it would alter the roofline, this is unacceptable due to my own personal timelines, but thanks for the suggestion.
PS. a mate of mine (builder) had to do this and the extra cost was minimal.
mk1fan said:
Jonleeper said:
I have spoken to my solicitor who agrees that the wall in question is not a party wall and there is no reason for it to become one under the plans. The boundary is the outside edge of the current wall and there is no building within 3 meters or 6 meters of a line at 45 degrees from the base of the foundation. Nothing in the planning permission changes this and thus the PWA does not apply.
1. Your solicitor needs to read Section 1 of the Act.2. The fact that there is a current trespass doesn't mean you can remove it and replace it with another one. Although you may be able to establish a default right to have guttering there the cost, time and energy required to do this don't seem to fit into your timescales.
ETA: To differentiate between two points.
Edited by mk1fan on Monday 6th September 16:09
Now my wall does not sit astride the boundary, and there is no structure attached to it, nor within the 3 or 6 meter rules. The council own the road, not a structure of any kind. There is currently an encroachment of about 3 inches over the grass verge and there will be an encroachment of about 6 inches in the new drawing, but that does not make this a party wall. If I wanted a party wall I could have increased the size of my extension by half the thickness of the new wall so that it did sit astride the boundary. A boundary that is specified by a thick pencil line on a small scale map which, if scaled up, would be about 6 feet thick!
If anyhting they might have a point over the encroachment but a party wall it is not.
Busamav said:
Mr GrimNasty said:
If you are building adjacent the boundary, you're foundations will be under the neighbouring land
They don't have to be 
It is quite commeon to have a suitable foundation design for building up to a boundary without encroachment
Trying to post the link for a third and final time! I think that it is the length of the link that is confusing PH so please take out the space and paste into your browser.
http://www.dover.gov.uk/planning /Applic_net/detail.aspx?systemkey=209864
http://www.dover.gov.uk/planning /Applic_net/detail.aspx?systemkey=209864
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