Money pit; sensible steps to take to avoid
Discussion
I have had an external viewing of a large old house today, converted to council offices in the 1960s, and now on the market with a suggestoon they would look favourably on a conversion back to a house. It was vacated 12-18 months ago. No bathrooms or proper kitchen, just a staff kitchenette on the first floor and basement staff toilets. The basement was used as a storage facility and hosted the computer servers and telephone system so I am guessing (hoping) that is dry, although it should be as technically it isn't actually underground.
At first viewing it was all a bit scarey for me as a non-builder (although I have done a couple of bare brick restorations of period houses). Lots ( I mean over 30) old sash windows painted shut with peeling paint (although the wood on the ground floor windows seeemed sound enough), rusted iron gutters ( I roughly measured about 70 meters of guttering) although the downpipes seemed sound. Most of the water runs into a valley behind the front of the roof and then down large ( 6-8 inch?) downpipes. The roof (slated) seemed sound and even, and the lead flashings were all in good condition.
I am going back for an internal look early this week.
My OH's feeling is that it could be a money pit whereas I think that if it is dry, the stonework is very sound (which it looks) and the wood supporting the roof overhang is sound it could be a runner.
Anyone got ballpark figures £££ per Sq Meter for builder rennovation to a very high standard assuming new plumbing and electrics, but assuming that the roof and windows are as sound as they look and just require cosmetic repair?
Previously I have done the donkey work myself and brought in builders for the skilled bits but this is too much for me and I would probbably need a builder to take the job over completely, so costing is tricky.
I know that I am looking at a figure of £600-£1200 per window if they need replacing (the majority are sash but some are smaller and fixed frame).
Slagathore said:
Any ideas on the size of the place? Or are there any floorplans handy? They'll help.
It does sound like a massive money pit, but if you're going to live in it and get spec everything as you like, then go for it!
About 6000 sq feet , 2000 sq feet a floor (Inc 2000 sq ft of basement). Fantastic 20 ft x 20 ft hall ,and master bedroom but alot of the rooms have been partitioned into interview rooms (complete with perspex screens).It does sound like a massive money pit, but if you're going to live in it and get spec everything as you like, then go for it!
I had a budget of £250k in mind for the renovation and if I could do it at that price we would probably go for it. My fear was that £250K would become £500K and that would spoil the fun.
I will try and find floor plans to upload.
Have you been to see the inside yet?
6000sq ft
That'll be a hell of a lot of house when it's done.
If you're gunna gut it and and start from scratch internally, you're gunna get through a hell of a lot of skips. Probably be better to use the roll on roll off ones, if there's space to put one. Probably around £300 for the smaller ones.
In theory, it sounds easy, as it's already been occupied and has all the services running to it. It's not like you're buying some derelict barn that hasn't been touched in 40 years and has never had people in it.
The other thing, a 6000sq ft house is a serious size, and as such, you'd expect a serious price tag when it's finished, so you'd expect a £30k kitchen, fancy fireplaces, stone and oak floors and fancy bathrooms.
That's where the money will easily be sucked up, trying to do a property of that size justice.
That's also a lot of house for an architect to provide drawings for. I'm sure some others on here could give an idea of the cost involved in that area.
Oh, and don't forget to inform Grand Designs if you go ahead with it
6000sq ft
That'll be a hell of a lot of house when it's done.
If you're gunna gut it and and start from scratch internally, you're gunna get through a hell of a lot of skips. Probably be better to use the roll on roll off ones, if there's space to put one. Probably around £300 for the smaller ones.
In theory, it sounds easy, as it's already been occupied and has all the services running to it. It's not like you're buying some derelict barn that hasn't been touched in 40 years and has never had people in it.
The other thing, a 6000sq ft house is a serious size, and as such, you'd expect a serious price tag when it's finished, so you'd expect a £30k kitchen, fancy fireplaces, stone and oak floors and fancy bathrooms.
That's where the money will easily be sucked up, trying to do a property of that size justice.
That's also a lot of house for an architect to provide drawings for. I'm sure some others on here could give an idea of the cost involved in that area.
Oh, and don't forget to inform Grand Designs if you go ahead with it
Looks like the public access is an issue.
It has a public footpath within 10 feet of the front door running right through the garden, granted when the council had it. When I was there it was like Piccadilly circus with dog walkers and turists and there was evidence of 'partying' by local youths on the lawn. Agent has been slow sending me the site outline and without clarity over an agreement the footpath can be moved (council have suggested a diversion but won't say how far away from the house it will be) nobody will touch it with a barge pole . I think this is why the previous deal fell through to make it a small hotel. In 2006 the council estimated it needed £260K spending on it, and it has stood empty for 4 years ( not 18 months as I thought).
I might take it off their hands for free but I think it needs £500K spending to get it right and at that price who wants a well used public footpath literally on their doorstep?
It has a public footpath within 10 feet of the front door running right through the garden, granted when the council had it. When I was there it was like Piccadilly circus with dog walkers and turists and there was evidence of 'partying' by local youths on the lawn. Agent has been slow sending me the site outline and without clarity over an agreement the footpath can be moved (council have suggested a diversion but won't say how far away from the house it will be) nobody will touch it with a barge pole . I think this is why the previous deal fell through to make it a small hotel. In 2006 the council estimated it needed £260K spending on it, and it has stood empty for 4 years ( not 18 months as I thought).
I might take it off their hands for free but I think it needs £500K spending to get it right and at that price who wants a well used public footpath literally on their doorstep?
Four Cofffee said:
I might take it off their hands for free but I think it needs £500K spending to get it right and at that price who wants a well used public footpath literally on their doorstep?
When you put 250k I actually thought it might be more than double that, but didn't want to say for fear of sounding mean......Just working on the basis of Grand Designs and such shows.
I was also wondering if you'd actually got planning permission yet for residential use, as obviously you'd want that before purchasing it!
Plotloss said:
Beware the romance of the wreck...
Yup.I bought a house (for the land & location more than the house). Started with a budget of £30,000 to re-furb, knock a few walls down etc. and ended up 8 months later spending just shy of £250,000 by the time we'd finished! Granted it's now nice inside, but it's still the same bloody house.
I would have re-built the place had I known how much we were going to spend. Half the problem is you get to a stage where you can't afford to stop. To make things worse, when the council came to sign off building regs, he asked why we didn't simply knock it down and re-build as they almost certainly would have given permission and added up to 10% more floor space....
Ah well - just be careful and whatever you think you're going to spend, it's probably nowhere near what you will!
Jasandjules said:
Four Cofffee said:
I might take it off their hands for free but I think it needs £500K spending to get it right and at that price who wants a well used public footpath literally on their doorstep?
When you put 250k I actually thought it might be more than double that, but didn't want to say for fear of sounding mean......Just working on the basis of Grand Designs and such shows.
I was also wondering if you'd actually got planning permission yet for residential use, as obviously you'd want that before purchasing it!
It's an interesting project, but I wouldn't bet on the planners having been informed.
You'd buy it and likely stil lhave to go through hoops to get planning for residential use, and the trouble of the pathway route changed.
I think that unless you can grease some palms on the planning committee, it won't be "plain sailing".
P.S. I wouldn't post pics or location unless someone else recognises it and ss in there like Flynn!
You'd buy it and likely stil lhave to go through hoops to get planning for residential use, and the trouble of the pathway route changed.
I think that unless you can grease some palms on the planning committee, it won't be "plain sailing".
P.S. I wouldn't post pics or location unless someone else recognises it and ss in there like Flynn!
Mt interest has slumped enough for me to post a link:
http://www.cphproperty.co.uk/commercial.html
Its Londesborough Lodge, The Crescent, Scarborough, North Yorkshire, YO11 2PW
Google Earth the postcode, and see the site!
http://www.cphproperty.co.uk/commercial.html
Its Londesborough Lodge, The Crescent, Scarborough, North Yorkshire, YO11 2PW
Google Earth the postcode, and see the site!
Edited by Four Cofffee on Wednesday 18th August 17:38
Four Cofffee said:
Mt interest has slumped enough for me to post a link:
http://www.cphproperty.co.uk/commercial.html
Its Londesborough Lodge, The Crescent, Scarborough, North Yorkshire, YO11 2PW
Google Earth the postcode, and see the site!
Spooky. Was wandering round that a month or so back, thinking similar thoughts. I'd bet that right of way would be a bhttp://www.cphproperty.co.uk/commercial.html
Its Londesborough Lodge, The Crescent, Scarborough, North Yorkshire, YO11 2PW
Google Earth the postcode, and see the site!
Edited by Four Cofffee on Wednesday 18th August 17:38
h to have shifted, as the grounds have been public for ages, and they're quite nice (in a zigzag really steep and a bit overcast way).Four Cofffee said:
The council have said in the particulars it is suitable for residential use, so I guess their planners would have been consulted.
Whilst in theory that would be fine, given the way some council planning departments are, I'd make an application for planning for conversion to residential use now - before you go any further WRT rights of way etc..and any consideration/planning of costs etc. You are free to make an application even if you don't own it (I don't wish to teach grandma to suck eggs, but just in case) and then it will stand.Because you would surely hate to buy it only to find that a load of people object to conversion and it is rejected by planning?
Jasandjules said:
Four Cofffee said:
The council have said in the particulars it is suitable for residential use, so I guess their planners would have been consulted.
Whilst in theory that would be fine, given the way some council planning departments are, I'd make an application for planning for conversion to residential use now - before you go any further WRT rights of way etc..and any consideration/planning of costs etc. You are free to make an application even if you don't own it (I don't wish to teach grandma to suck eggs, but just in case) and then it will stand.Because you would surely hate to buy it only to find that a load of people object to conversion and it is rejected by planning?
Deva Link said:
It's Grade 2 listed - doesn't that make everything you do 4x more expensive?
If it was turned back into a family home, refurbed to good standard, would the place be sellable for a worthwhile price? Does the area support a suitable value?
Depends on what is listed. I recently looked at a place where the listinmg applied to the garden wall ( a very rare double skinned wall they used to light fires in during the winter to keep the frost out of the peach trees that grew against it). You then cop for doing nothing which detracts from that feature which often includes its setting but often a listing is based in specifc features or its psition within a scene. Cottage by us is having to apply to pout a sky dish up on the back because the street scene at the front is the listing feature. If it was turned back into a family home, refurbed to good standard, would the place be sellable for a worthwhile price? Does the area support a suitable value?
I have avoided geting my place listed, and hope nobody else applies to list it, because of the hoop jumping. I looked at a house with an ancient monument in the grounds NO,NO,NO. English Heritage hadve a worst rep that any local listings officer.
Just had some docs from the agent. Looks like the extra land wil enable the footpath to be diverted but the buyer would have to pay for that, and it still leaves the winding footpath less than 20 feet from the room with the view. Makes for pleasurable nights watching the local yobs party in your front garden I think.
Also they sent me the council planning doc which seems to favour a 'cultural' use as the adjacent properties are museums and art centres.
Also they sent me the council planning doc which seems to favour a 'cultural' use as the adjacent properties are museums and art centres.
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