Roof leak (lots of photos)
Discussion
Chaps,
Tricky one this.
Zcacogp towers is an 1880-ish victorian terrace. Nothing special, in London. With a London Butterfly Roof (namely, a roof that goes down in the middle instead of up; the highest parts are over the party walls between houses, and the lowest part is in the middle of the house.)
About a month or so ago we noticed marks on the ceiling of the second bedroom. Over the window, with some small cracks in the plaster. The room isn't used very much, but I am confident they arrived over the period of a month before that (so, since Christmas.) Photos look like this:
Last week, we noticed some more marks in the middle of the ceiling of the same room, just above the bed. They look like this:
For reference, the lowest point of the roof is just above the wall at the back of those photos.
So, slightly concerned, I went up onto the roof to see what there was to see up there, expecting there to be a loose tile or similar. However, nothing seemed to be amiss. All the tiles were there, none of them missing or skew. There was no particular amount of debris there and nothing that looked amiss - nothing seemed to have changed since I was last up there, a couple of years ago.
There is a loft above the room in question, and I have just been up into there to see what there is to see. It is all very heavily insulated (we have at least 18 inches if not 2ft of insulation up there), and I pushed it aside to see if there was anything obviously amiss. There was nothing that was damp to the touch, and no gaping holes in the roof (not that I was expecting any). I took a camera up with me and photos taken pretty much directly above the marks in the middle of the room look like this:
As a point of reference, these are taken facing in the same direction as the last photos (i.e. towards the lowest part of the roof), and you can see the wires going down to the ceiling boss.
It seems that there has been work done on the roof in this area fairly recently (we have been in the house about 5 years), as there is wood which is clearly newer than the wood around it. The roof felt is also not consistent; it can be seen clearly over most of the inside of the roof, but disappears behind (i.e. above) the newer bits of wood; this can be seen in the photos.
So, what's going on?
I am guessing that the marks are water leaks, and that they are coming in through the roof (there are no pipes in the loft to leak.) I haven't dug around above the marks over the window, but there is no obvious dampness in the loft over the centre of the room, although it is possible that it only leaks when it rains hard and it has since dried out. Having said that, you can see the white speckled appearance of the roof joist just above the new piece of wood; when I rubbed this with my finger it rubbed off very easily. I am wondering whether this is some form of mould or mildew from dampness (I could be wrong on this).
What is the solution? Do we need to have the whole roof re-done? Can it be repaired? Will the tiles have to come off? Is it DIY-able and, if so, how? If it is a professional job then is my house insurance likely to pay for it? (We have buildings and contents insurance, although I can't remember who with.)
All help welcomed - thanks.
Oli.
Tricky one this.
Zcacogp towers is an 1880-ish victorian terrace. Nothing special, in London. With a London Butterfly Roof (namely, a roof that goes down in the middle instead of up; the highest parts are over the party walls between houses, and the lowest part is in the middle of the house.)
About a month or so ago we noticed marks on the ceiling of the second bedroom. Over the window, with some small cracks in the plaster. The room isn't used very much, but I am confident they arrived over the period of a month before that (so, since Christmas.) Photos look like this:
Last week, we noticed some more marks in the middle of the ceiling of the same room, just above the bed. They look like this:
For reference, the lowest point of the roof is just above the wall at the back of those photos.
So, slightly concerned, I went up onto the roof to see what there was to see up there, expecting there to be a loose tile or similar. However, nothing seemed to be amiss. All the tiles were there, none of them missing or skew. There was no particular amount of debris there and nothing that looked amiss - nothing seemed to have changed since I was last up there, a couple of years ago.
There is a loft above the room in question, and I have just been up into there to see what there is to see. It is all very heavily insulated (we have at least 18 inches if not 2ft of insulation up there), and I pushed it aside to see if there was anything obviously amiss. There was nothing that was damp to the touch, and no gaping holes in the roof (not that I was expecting any). I took a camera up with me and photos taken pretty much directly above the marks in the middle of the room look like this:
As a point of reference, these are taken facing in the same direction as the last photos (i.e. towards the lowest part of the roof), and you can see the wires going down to the ceiling boss.
It seems that there has been work done on the roof in this area fairly recently (we have been in the house about 5 years), as there is wood which is clearly newer than the wood around it. The roof felt is also not consistent; it can be seen clearly over most of the inside of the roof, but disappears behind (i.e. above) the newer bits of wood; this can be seen in the photos.
So, what's going on?
I am guessing that the marks are water leaks, and that they are coming in through the roof (there are no pipes in the loft to leak.) I haven't dug around above the marks over the window, but there is no obvious dampness in the loft over the centre of the room, although it is possible that it only leaks when it rains hard and it has since dried out. Having said that, you can see the white speckled appearance of the roof joist just above the new piece of wood; when I rubbed this with my finger it rubbed off very easily. I am wondering whether this is some form of mould or mildew from dampness (I could be wrong on this).
What is the solution? Do we need to have the whole roof re-done? Can it be repaired? Will the tiles have to come off? Is it DIY-able and, if so, how? If it is a professional job then is my house insurance likely to pay for it? (We have buildings and contents insurance, although I can't remember who with.)
All help welcomed - thanks.
Oli.
Edited by zcacogp on Monday 5th April 14:14
TLFAN,
No, no piccies of outside (I didn't think to take the camera up on the roof, but can go up to take some if it would be useful.)
I don't know when the leaks happened; the room isn't used much, so can't be sure. All I can say is that it was cold (and snowy and icy) over the month or so period in which I think they appeared.
Thanks for your help.
Oli.
No, no piccies of outside (I didn't think to take the camera up on the roof, but can go up to take some if it would be useful.)
I don't know when the leaks happened; the room isn't used much, so can't be sure. All I can say is that it was cold (and snowy and icy) over the month or so period in which I think they appeared.
Thanks for your help.
Oli.
TooLateForAName said:
Have you got some pics of the outside as well?
Did this happen when there was all the snow? Having snow/ice sitting on the roof can lead to water getting through in places that it would not normally leak in because the ice can hold water in places where it would normally run away.
That was my first thought too. Would also check that the outlet pipe is not blocked and water is backing up and under felt/flashing.Did this happen when there was all the snow? Having snow/ice sitting on the roof can lead to water getting through in places that it would not normally leak in because the ice can hold water in places where it would normally run away.
Robinhood,
Hmmm. Thanks. For what it's worth, there was no problem last winter, when we had quite a lot more snow and ice. Although I guess if the wind was blowing in a different direction and ice formed elsewhere then it may not have been a problem.
There is no outflow pipe in the area for backing-up to occur.
Oli.
Hmmm. Thanks. For what it's worth, there was no problem last winter, when we had quite a lot more snow and ice. Although I guess if the wind was blowing in a different direction and ice formed elsewhere then it may not have been a problem.
There is no outflow pipe in the area for backing-up to occur.
Oli.
zcacogp said:
There is no outflow pipe in the area for backing-up to occur.
Oli.
How does water get out of the valley? There must be some sort of hopper? is it leadwork in the bottom?Oli.
While you've got your camera out ;-) what about the other side of the valley - got pics of the inside of that?
I may be wrong but .... It doesn't look like the water has come from above the ceiling judging by the pictures from above
you say The room isn't used very much ,could it be damp from inside ?
my youngest ones ceiling has a damp looking patch above the bed where the ceiling meets the outside wall , I've had the tiles off, felt up in the roof etc. ,looked in the attic , there is no stain on top of plasterboard in the attic to correspond to the mark below
Her mark is caused by poor ventilation in the room ,had to use a dehumidifier to dry it out and bleach wiped over it to kill it off
you say The room isn't used very much ,could it be damp from inside ?
my youngest ones ceiling has a damp looking patch above the bed where the ceiling meets the outside wall , I've had the tiles off, felt up in the roof etc. ,looked in the attic , there is no stain on top of plasterboard in the attic to correspond to the mark below
Her mark is caused by poor ventilation in the room ,had to use a dehumidifier to dry it out and bleach wiped over it to kill it off
TLFAN, (and Robinhood)
Oh, sorry, I misunderstood. I thought you were referring to an outflow pipe in the roof area, into the valley.
Yes, the valley drains out at the back of the house, out into a hopper and down a pipe. And you are right - when I was up on the roof, there was a blockage in the hopper. It wasn't entirely blocked, but I'd say 70% of the capacity was lost. But that's a long way away from the affected bit of roof. Do you think that could have been relevant? I removed the blockage (it was what looked like a lump of render or mortar) so it's no longer a problem. If it had flooded that far back then there would have been a huge amount of water up there.
When you talk about pictures of the other side of the valley, I presume you mean inside the loft on the other side of the house? If so, that's possibly even harder to get into and has even more insulation in it. And the stained area on the ceiling is not underneath that loft. Are you asking out of curiosity or because you think it may be relevant to the problem?
X-type, that's an interesting theory. Thanks. And one of the stains is just above the window (as you can see in the pictures.) But the room has never been used much, why would the stains appear now? Having said that, the window does leak quite badly and it's very drafty in there, and that has got a lot worse in the last 6 months (I will make a new window for in there this summer.) Would that be relevant?
Interestingly, of all the answers thus far, no-one has suggested that there is a serious problem or that there is anything that would involve work. Either you are all being very kind, or I am imagining dire problems when there are none ...
Thanks again for all input.
Oli.
Oh, sorry, I misunderstood. I thought you were referring to an outflow pipe in the roof area, into the valley.
Yes, the valley drains out at the back of the house, out into a hopper and down a pipe. And you are right - when I was up on the roof, there was a blockage in the hopper. It wasn't entirely blocked, but I'd say 70% of the capacity was lost. But that's a long way away from the affected bit of roof. Do you think that could have been relevant? I removed the blockage (it was what looked like a lump of render or mortar) so it's no longer a problem. If it had flooded that far back then there would have been a huge amount of water up there.
When you talk about pictures of the other side of the valley, I presume you mean inside the loft on the other side of the house? If so, that's possibly even harder to get into and has even more insulation in it. And the stained area on the ceiling is not underneath that loft. Are you asking out of curiosity or because you think it may be relevant to the problem?
X-type, that's an interesting theory. Thanks. And one of the stains is just above the window (as you can see in the pictures.) But the room has never been used much, why would the stains appear now? Having said that, the window does leak quite badly and it's very drafty in there, and that has got a lot worse in the last 6 months (I will make a new window for in there this summer.) Would that be relevant?
Interestingly, of all the answers thus far, no-one has suggested that there is a serious problem or that there is anything that would involve work. Either you are all being very kind, or I am imagining dire problems when there are none ...
Thanks again for all input.
Oli.
jeebus said:
Looks more like a condensation problem in the loft. Those trusses look like they have been damp at some point, also is the fiberglass insulation damp at all.
No, that was the odd thing. Everything in the loft was very dry to the touch. Fibreglass insulation, trusses - the lot. Why would there be more condensation up there now? Would it be related to us putting more insulation in there towards the latter end of last year?
Oli.
zcacogp said:
jeebus said:
Looks more like a condensation problem in the loft. Those trusses look like they have been damp at some point, also is the fiberglass insulation damp at all.
No, that was the odd thing. Everything in the loft was very dry to the touch. Fibreglass insulation, trusses - the lot. Why would there be more condensation up there now? Would it be related to us putting more insulation in there towards the latter end of last year?
Oli.
Jeebus,
Now that IS interesting. Thanks. We may have an explanation. What can you do about it? Anything?
Spudler,
Someone was going to ask that! It was a flat piece, about 2inx1.5in, which looked like it had fallen off a smooth, flat surface. It hadn't obviously come off the roof anywhere, and I didn't work out where it had come from. It wasn't of a shape that suggested it was part of a tile arrangement in any way. (There were a number of odd things up there which I didn't understand, come to mention it. Including what looked like cat faeces ... there are cats in the area - we have one - but I'd be VERY surprised if they ever got up onto the roof up there.)
Oli.
Now that IS interesting. Thanks. We may have an explanation. What can you do about it? Anything?
Spudler,
Someone was going to ask that! It was a flat piece, about 2inx1.5in, which looked like it had fallen off a smooth, flat surface. It hadn't obviously come off the roof anywhere, and I didn't work out where it had come from. It wasn't of a shape that suggested it was part of a tile arrangement in any way. (There were a number of odd things up there which I didn't understand, come to mention it. Including what looked like cat faeces ... there are cats in the area - we have one - but I'd be VERY surprised if they ever got up onto the roof up there.)
Oli.
You need to make sure the roofspace is adequately ventilated,and make sure you haven't crammed insulation right down into the eaves also try to make sure no warm air can get into the roofspace from below. For example check if the trap is sealed well or downlighters have hoods on them.
Jeebus,
What do you mean by 'having the insulation crammed into the eaves'? The insulation is laid between the joists, and then on top of the joists as well. Is this what you mean?
There are no downlighters in the room. The loft hatch is fairly well sealed (foam sealant 'round the edges), and there is a layer of insulation that flops over the top of that when it is lowered.
Oli.
What do you mean by 'having the insulation crammed into the eaves'? The insulation is laid between the joists, and then on top of the joists as well. Is this what you mean?
There are no downlighters in the room. The loft hatch is fairly well sealed (foam sealant 'round the edges), and there is a layer of insulation that flops over the top of that when it is lowered.
Oli.
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