Bathroom Fan wiring advice
Discussion
Hi Chaps,
Her in doors has requested I fit a bathroom fan for those chilly winter mornings. Now, I have a fair idea how to do it but I just want to make sure I don't fall foul anywhere. The situation at the moment is that we have power to the bathroom from an old electric shower that has been removed. It currently terminates on the outside of the bathroom where the isolator switch was. What I was thinking of doing was purchasing a bathroom wall fan, with pull cord, and then running the supply from the old shower switch to a 13amp fused terminal and then onto the fan. Is there anything else I should be considering?
Peter
Her in doors has requested I fit a bathroom fan for those chilly winter mornings. Now, I have a fair idea how to do it but I just want to make sure I don't fall foul anywhere. The situation at the moment is that we have power to the bathroom from an old electric shower that has been removed. It currently terminates on the outside of the bathroom where the isolator switch was. What I was thinking of doing was purchasing a bathroom wall fan, with pull cord, and then running the supply from the old shower switch to a 13amp fused terminal and then onto the fan. Is there anything else I should be considering?
Peter
I presume you mean a fan heater?
Obviously the cable for the old shower supply will be heavier duty than required, but if the run isn't too far I don't think it should make any difference. The fuse/circuit breaker will be too big for the fan heater though, you should change it.
I'm not a spark, so wait till someone qualified gives better advice!
Obviously the cable for the old shower supply will be heavier duty than required, but if the run isn't too far I don't think it should make any difference. The fuse/circuit breaker will be too big for the fan heater though, you should change it.
I'm not a spark, so wait till someone qualified gives better advice!
All circuits in bathrooms now need to be protected by an RCD.The cb backing up the cable for the old shower will be far larger than now required.This is notifiable work,if you cock it up and the worst happens your in deep trouble with insurance etc.Makes me laugh when people undertake electrical work with no real understanding of what there doing.Do yourself a favour and get a NICEIC or similar sparks in.
smr450 said:
All circuits in bathrooms now need to be protected by an RCD.The cb backing up the cable for the old shower will be far larger than now required.This is notifiable work,if you cock it up and the worst happens your in deep trouble with insurance etc.Makes me laugh when people undertake electrical work with no real understanding of what there doing.Do yourself a favour and get a NICEIC or similar sparks in.
Glad I made you laugh!! For your information it already has an RCD and yes I fully understood the CB is currently for a shower but then a fan would normally come off a ring main supply which is still 30 amps, thats why the fused spur. I can't comment whether it is notifiable work, but seriously all I am effectively doing is fitting a fuse and wiring in the heater and all you are ever going to touch is the pull cord. Wrong.... the fan comes off the lighting supply and should be on a 10A breaker (max)on an RCD circuit (whether integral to the board or a seperate unit). A 3-core cable from the light fitting to the fan isolator switch (pull cord only if inside the bathroom or rocker type if external) switch line/neutral and permanent live feed for the timer overun.If light does not have permanent feed, then it might be at the switch or a JB above.
From the isolator, 3-core to the fan. switch line brings on the fan with the light, permanent feed keeps it running for a variable time after to vent condensation or fartfumes !!!
Work is notifiable Part-p as it is special location (ie bathroom or outside) and no i didn't make up the phrase "special location" (see BS7671 17th edition IEE wiring regulations)
Ta Da
From the isolator, 3-core to the fan. switch line brings on the fan with the light, permanent feed keeps it running for a variable time after to vent condensation or fartfumes !!!
Work is notifiable Part-p as it is special location (ie bathroom or outside) and no i didn't make up the phrase "special location" (see BS7671 17th edition IEE wiring regulations)
Ta Da
All work in a room containing a bath or shower is notifiable.Yes you would be installing a fcu but it would not be a spur it would be a radial circuit.You would need too down rate the CB to say a 16A 60898 type b.Doesnt matter how easy you may think it is,if your not able to self certify electrical work you shouldnt be touching it full stop.You also need to consider whether or not it requires suplimentry bonding or are all the conditions laid out in BS 7671 met?.As i said for the cost far better too get it done right by a proffesional.We are talking fan heater not extract air.
Edited by smr450 on Tuesday 19th January 22:38
Being able to certify your own work is a fundemental part of the business, Just because it works does not mean it is safe.
There are several agencies that are recognised as Part-p registers and all you have to do is sign up.
Testing inspection and certification is nothing new, and anyone who does not test for RCD trip times etc etc is assuming the device works.
Over the last four years or so i have installed at least three RCD devices (integral) that have failed from new.(ie not tripped in the prescribed time....40 milliseconds)
Its an industry that by nature needs to be policed and updated regularly.
Just got to want to do it, its not hard nor particularly expensive, its investing in your trade like buying the latest battery drill!!!
"Qualified sparks" aren't quallified if they cannot prove the safety of they're own installations.
I don't need to end up in court over a cock up!!!
There are several agencies that are recognised as Part-p registers and all you have to do is sign up.
Testing inspection and certification is nothing new, and anyone who does not test for RCD trip times etc etc is assuming the device works.
Over the last four years or so i have installed at least three RCD devices (integral) that have failed from new.(ie not tripped in the prescribed time....40 milliseconds)
Its an industry that by nature needs to be policed and updated regularly.
Just got to want to do it, its not hard nor particularly expensive, its investing in your trade like buying the latest battery drill!!!
"Qualified sparks" aren't quallified if they cannot prove the safety of they're own installations.
I don't need to end up in court over a cock up!!!
gavinv88 said:
"Qualified sparks" aren't quallified if they cannot prove the safety of they're own installations.
I can prove it. I am qualified to C&G standards and have served a recognised apprenticeship. I have access to the test equipment and know how to use it correctly and complete the Installation/Minor Works Certificate. Because of some badly drafted legislation, I am not allowed to install a supply to my shed or a new socket in my Nan's kitchen.i don't get why you are "not allowed". Why don't you register as part-p ?
If you can fill in a certificate, it means you have BS2391 right?
Maybe you have changed occupations ???
P.S. on a personal note, i like the "gangland boss" thing.
Mmm, changed occupation....gangland boss.....oops!!
If you can fill in a certificate, it means you have BS2391 right?
Maybe you have changed occupations ???
P.S. on a personal note, i like the "gangland boss" thing.
Mmm, changed occupation....gangland boss.....oops!!
Ganglandboss said:
gavinv88 said:
"Qualified sparks" aren't quallified if they cannot prove the safety of they're own installations.
I can prove it. I am qualified to C&G standards and have served a recognised apprenticeship. I have access to the test equipment and know how to use it correctly and complete the Installation/Minor Works Certificate. Because of some badly drafted legislation, I am not allowed to install a supply to my shed or a new socket in my Nan's kitchen.To the OP, make sure that the location of the fan is in accordance with Section 701 of BS 7671. To those in the know, this is logical but not necessarily obvious to those who aren't.
As smr450 said, better to down-size the MCB to a 16A type B as well as fit a 13A fused connection unit.
gavinv88 said:
i don't get why you are "not allowed". Why don't you register as part-p ?
If you can fill in a certificate, it means you have BS2391 right?
Maybe you have changed occupations ???
P.S. on a personal note, i like the "gangland boss" thing.
Mmm, changed occupation....gangland boss.....oops!!
You cannot join unless you run a business; they want to see VAT number, insurance, company registration etc. It would also cost me about £600.If you can fill in a certificate, it means you have BS2391 right?
Maybe you have changed occupations ???
P.S. on a personal note, i like the "gangland boss" thing.
Mmm, changed occupation....gangland boss.....oops!!
You're correct; I have changed occupations (although I am an M&E consulting engineer - not a gangland boss
) but it wouldn't have made a difference. I did my apprenticeship in a university estates department and stayed there when I came out of my time. Because our work was not in dwellings, we didn't need to be approved domestic installers. Even if we were, it would only cover me for work carried out on behalf of the employer.I do agree with regulation of electrical works but the piss poor way they have gone about it is ridiculous:
- Unqualified people can register
- Qualified people can no longer do work for themselves or family
- Cowboys have been pushed further underground
- It does not cover commercial or industrial work
Ganglandboss said:
gavinv88 said:
"Qualified sparks" aren't quallified if they cannot prove the safety of they're own installations.
I can prove it. I am qualified to C&G standards and have served a recognised apprenticeship. I have access to the test equipment and know how to use it correctly and complete the Installation/Minor Works Certificate. Because of some badly drafted legislation, I am not allowed to install a supply to my shed or a new socket in my Nan's kitchen.from a council website
Any person who wishes to install, alter or extend a low or extra low voltage electrical installation in a dwelling, or sourced from within a dwelling, e.g. garden shed, must have the works carried out by a "competent person" registered with either BRE Certification Ltd., British Standards Institution, ELECSA Ltd., NICEIC Certification Services Ltd., Zurich Certification Ltd. or NAPIT Certification Ltd who will self-certify that the works comply with all relevant requirements.
Alternatively, formal notification under the provisions of The Building Regulations 2000 (as amended) must be given to The Councils Building Control Unit. If a person chooses to use Local Authority Building Control, the applicant/building owner will be requested on completion to supply an installation and commissioning test certificate completed by a person competent in respect of the inspection and testing of such installations as required by British Standard 7671
Brite spark said:
Ganglandboss said:
gavinv88 said:
"Qualified sparks" aren't quallified if they cannot prove the safety of they're own installations.
I can prove it. I am qualified to C&G standards and have served a recognised apprenticeship. I have access to the test equipment and know how to use it correctly and complete the Installation/Minor Works Certificate. Because of some badly drafted legislation, I am not allowed to install a supply to my shed or a new socket in my Nan's kitchen.from a council website
Any person who wishes to install, alter or extend a low or extra low voltage electrical installation in a dwelling, or sourced from within a dwelling, e.g. garden shed, must have the works carried out by a "competent person" registered with either BRE Certification Ltd., British Standards Institution, ELECSA Ltd., NICEIC Certification Services Ltd., Zurich Certification Ltd. or NAPIT Certification Ltd who will self-certify that the works comply with all relevant requirements.
Alternatively, formal notification under the provisions of The Building Regulations 2000 (as amended) must be given to The Councils Building Control Unit. If a person chooses to use Local Authority Building Control, the applicant/building owner will be requested on completion to supply an installation and commissioning test certificate completed by a person competent in respect of the inspection and testing of such installations as required by British Standard 7671
http://www.tameside.gov.uk/tmbc8/note20.pdf
document said:
My electrician is competent , qualified and is a member of a recognised trade body, but is not registered to self certify.
A competent electrician is consider to be somebody who has will have a sound knowledge and experience relevant to the nature of the work undertaken and to the technical standards set down in BS7671, be fully versed in the inspection and testing procedures contained in the regulations and employ adequate calibrated testing equipment. (Building Control would expect evidence of this before accepting certificates of such persons).
For members of established national electrical trade organisations (listed above), who are not Part P certified, we will accept their own BS7671 installation, inspection and testing certificates. Providing they provide evidence of their membership, have a preplaster / pre-covering of wiring inspection carried out by Building Control and they issue the correct BS7671 installation, inspection and testing certificates on the works completion. This is because these organisations define and audit competency and the service quality for these contractors.
A Building Regulation application will have to be submitted to the local authority, with the relevant fee (refer to the previous answers above on what information must be submitted). The Building Control Surveyor may need to be asked to undertake a visual inspection before the electrics are covered over.
Please note:
for electrical works included on Domestic Extensions applications – if you have signed your Building Regulation application form declaration that you intended to employ a Competent Person Scheme Member to carryout your electrical works and then subsequently fail to do so, you will have to make a separate Building Regulation application and pay the appropriate electrical works charges prior to commencing the electrical works.
My electrician is unable to prove competency.
Take great care if this is your chosen route to check the contractor out properly. Typically, this may be an electrician who has traded as such for some time, but who has never felt the need to sign up with a recognised trade body and is therefore unable to prove their competency.
An application will have to be made to the Local Authority for approval under the Building Regulations before starting work, together with the appropriate fee (refer to the previous answers above on what information must be submitted). You are required to notify us that works are starting to allow us to carryout appropriate inspections prior to the works being covered over.
A copy of your installers BS 7671 completion certificate (which is required in all cases) must however be provided to the homeowner and Local Authority. (Building Control would expect evidence of this installer’s suitability to complete this certificate before accepting it - refer to guide checklist).
Your lecturer may be right but I suspect it varies dependent on who the Local Authority is. A competent electrician is consider to be somebody who has will have a sound knowledge and experience relevant to the nature of the work undertaken and to the technical standards set down in BS7671, be fully versed in the inspection and testing procedures contained in the regulations and employ adequate calibrated testing equipment. (Building Control would expect evidence of this before accepting certificates of such persons).
For members of established national electrical trade organisations (listed above), who are not Part P certified, we will accept their own BS7671 installation, inspection and testing certificates. Providing they provide evidence of their membership, have a preplaster / pre-covering of wiring inspection carried out by Building Control and they issue the correct BS7671 installation, inspection and testing certificates on the works completion. This is because these organisations define and audit competency and the service quality for these contractors.
A Building Regulation application will have to be submitted to the local authority, with the relevant fee (refer to the previous answers above on what information must be submitted). The Building Control Surveyor may need to be asked to undertake a visual inspection before the electrics are covered over.
Please note:
for electrical works included on Domestic Extensions applications – if you have signed your Building Regulation application form declaration that you intended to employ a Competent Person Scheme Member to carryout your electrical works and then subsequently fail to do so, you will have to make a separate Building Regulation application and pay the appropriate electrical works charges prior to commencing the electrical works.
My electrician is unable to prove competency.
Take great care if this is your chosen route to check the contractor out properly. Typically, this may be an electrician who has traded as such for some time, but who has never felt the need to sign up with a recognised trade body and is therefore unable to prove their competency.
An application will have to be made to the Local Authority for approval under the Building Regulations before starting work, together with the appropriate fee (refer to the previous answers above on what information must be submitted). You are required to notify us that works are starting to allow us to carryout appropriate inspections prior to the works being covered over.
A copy of your installers BS 7671 completion certificate (which is required in all cases) must however be provided to the homeowner and Local Authority. (Building Control would expect evidence of this installer’s suitability to complete this certificate before accepting it - refer to guide checklist).
Brite spark said:
Since the council now charge for the testing/inspect of the installation by a competent person
Are you sure the council inspect and test - mine doesn't. You have to pay for the Building Control Officer to come and inspect but that does not include testing by a 'competent person'. You have to organise this (and pay for it) yourself.Good luck with your 2391 by the way. Make sure you get plenty of revision before the exam - it is harder than Chinese algebra!
gavinv88 said:
"Qualified sparks" aren't quallified if they cannot prove the safety of they're own installations.
Are you having a laugh?I'll show you how stupid all this Part P and "Self Certification" b
ks is.I'm 39 now, so i've been doing this job the best part of 23 years. Unlike many "Domestic Installers" i served a full apprenticeship and passed every exam with Distinctions plus my AM1 & 2 at the first attempt. I was stongly encouraged by both my boss and College Lecturers to go down the HNC/HND etc route, but i had no interest in working in an office and still don't.
During my apprenticeship (and since) i worked on everything from a house to sites where i was within spitting distance of Trident Subs...so i've been around a bit.
These days i work for a Housing Association which took over control of 7000 houses from the local Council. My week is almost entirely taken up doing Periodic Inspections on empty properties and i sign off quite a few each week. I 'm also responsible for any repairs & upgrades to bring them up to scratch. I am not Supervised at all, unless i need to get Major Works authorised. Occasionally we also do a bit of testing for the Local Council...
Now, even with my experience and the fact i can sign off work for the Council, i am obliged to inform Building Control if i do any private work and i have to get someone with NICEIC/NAPIT/ELECSA etc membership to certify it.
Now, go on and tell me that makes sense.
As for the 2391, it's a doddle.
Edited by MonkeyHanger on Thursday 21st January 17:28
you're mass skills do not extend to reading a ststement and understanding it my fellow sparks.
"A qualified sparks is not qualified if he cannot prove the safety of his own work" means he has the ability to test and inspect its safe installation, otherwise he is a sparks mate.
We can all hire wire monkeys for nishpence, the exams/apprenticeships and training is what sets us apart.
You are obviously qualified, however not self registered Part-p.
Clearly You work for a company that is, and its them, not the individual who is on the Register.
All of a sudden, builders want you to wire an extension, or a bathroom because of the part p thing, and lets face it, thats good for our industry (up till this point they were doing it themselves and charging the punter for a sparks)
Dangerous having a little knowledge.
Been at it since 1978 myself so been around dom/com for a long time ( i have a colorado journeymans license too as i sparked out ther for 8 years.... ours really is the best apprenticeship in the world)and if its regulation that keeps cowboy builders and immigrant (i am engineer in my own country...fully qualified but not here) have a go, brown to brown, blue to blue 1.5 does it all chancers .....then i love it.
p.s. That is not a slur on you or anyone who is not registered.
Get on it, you cant beat the system!!
Rant over, time for a large Vera !!!
"A qualified sparks is not qualified if he cannot prove the safety of his own work" means he has the ability to test and inspect its safe installation, otherwise he is a sparks mate.
We can all hire wire monkeys for nishpence, the exams/apprenticeships and training is what sets us apart.
You are obviously qualified, however not self registered Part-p.
Clearly You work for a company that is, and its them, not the individual who is on the Register.
All of a sudden, builders want you to wire an extension, or a bathroom because of the part p thing, and lets face it, thats good for our industry (up till this point they were doing it themselves and charging the punter for a sparks)
Dangerous having a little knowledge.
Been at it since 1978 myself so been around dom/com for a long time ( i have a colorado journeymans license too as i sparked out ther for 8 years.... ours really is the best apprenticeship in the world)and if its regulation that keeps cowboy builders and immigrant (i am engineer in my own country...fully qualified but not here) have a go, brown to brown, blue to blue 1.5 does it all chancers .....then i love it.
p.s. That is not a slur on you or anyone who is not registered.
Get on it, you cant beat the system!!
Rant over, time for a large Vera !!!
Solitude said:
you're mass skills do not extend to reading a ststement and understanding it my fellow sparks.
"A qualified sparks is not qualified if he cannot prove the safety of his own work" means he has the ability to test and inspect its safe installation, otherwise he is a sparks mate.
We can all hire wire monkeys for nishpence, the exams/apprenticeships and training is what sets us apart.
You are obviously qualified, however not self registered Part-p.
Clearly You work for a company that is, and its them, not the individual who is on the Register.
All of a sudden, builders want you to wire an extension, or a bathroom because of the part p thing, and lets face it, thats good for our industry (up till this point they were doing it themselves and charging the punter for a sparks)
Dangerous having a little knowledge.
Been at it since 1978 myself so been around dom/com for a long time ( i have a colorado journeymans license too as i sparked out ther for 8 years.... ours really is the best apprenticeship in the world)and if its regulation that keeps cowboy builders and immigrant (i am engineer in my own country...fully qualified but not here) have a go, brown to brown, blue to blue 1.5 does it all chancers .....then i love it.
p.s. That is not a slur on you or anyone who is not registered.
Get on it, you cant beat the system!!
Rant over, time for a large Vera !!!
You've missed the point spectacularly."A qualified sparks is not qualified if he cannot prove the safety of his own work" means he has the ability to test and inspect its safe installation, otherwise he is a sparks mate.
We can all hire wire monkeys for nishpence, the exams/apprenticeships and training is what sets us apart.
You are obviously qualified, however not self registered Part-p.
Clearly You work for a company that is, and its them, not the individual who is on the Register.
All of a sudden, builders want you to wire an extension, or a bathroom because of the part p thing, and lets face it, thats good for our industry (up till this point they were doing it themselves and charging the punter for a sparks)
Dangerous having a little knowledge.
Been at it since 1978 myself so been around dom/com for a long time ( i have a colorado journeymans license too as i sparked out ther for 8 years.... ours really is the best apprenticeship in the world)and if its regulation that keeps cowboy builders and immigrant (i am engineer in my own country...fully qualified but not here) have a go, brown to brown, blue to blue 1.5 does it all chancers .....then i love it.
p.s. That is not a slur on you or anyone who is not registered.
Get on it, you cant beat the system!!
Rant over, time for a large Vera !!!
I can certify work for the Council, who are part of the whole Part P Scam (Building Control) but i can't certify my own. That is complete lunacy.
Regulation is irrelevant. Cowboys will simply ignore it.
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