Potential building dispute . . . . . advice needed!
Discussion
Looking for some building/legal/property boundry advice!
Apologies for the lenghthy story!
We are currently undergoing an extension to the kithen (twice the width of the original) and gone accordingly with the planning/building plans. The outside structure is now done (was done 4 weeks ago)
New concrete foundations were laid on all sides except one (neighbour facing) which the building inspector said we could build on the existing foundation and there was no need for new foundation!
Now that our neighbours have seen our new kitchen go up; they decided they are going to do theirs!
The same inspector has been assigned to overlook their work too!
As their new wall needs to built up against/next to our wall they need concrete foundation to build on. However the building inspector is now saying that we should have/have to put concrete under the wall which he said was OK build on!
The inspector is now denying he gave us the all clear even though he was been to see the work numourous times (before and after) and we have called him everytime we got to a certain point!
So now we have a dispute with the inspector/neighbours saying that we should have built 6 inches away with a concrete foundation!
I am pretty livid at the fact that he is not owing to his mistake and to get out of the matter he has said that the neighbours can take us to court over this and we should reach a compromise! (easy way out)
The neighbours basically want the max width of their kitchen, so they want to use our new wall as the boundary! As you can imagine they are being smart in the fact that all of the expense has been paid by us - they basically build up against our wall and gain 8" as they don't have to build a wall which is 12" and will shorten their kitchen width!
Where do I stand with this as I don't want the neighbours building on our wall! I will be having strong words with the inspector on this as he has led us down a dark alley!
I hope this makes sense - I have tried to explain it as easily as possible but appreciate it is difficult without seeing the property!
Appreciate any advice!
Thanks
Apologies for the lenghthy story!
We are currently undergoing an extension to the kithen (twice the width of the original) and gone accordingly with the planning/building plans. The outside structure is now done (was done 4 weeks ago)
New concrete foundations were laid on all sides except one (neighbour facing) which the building inspector said we could build on the existing foundation and there was no need for new foundation!
Now that our neighbours have seen our new kitchen go up; they decided they are going to do theirs!
The same inspector has been assigned to overlook their work too!
As their new wall needs to built up against/next to our wall they need concrete foundation to build on. However the building inspector is now saying that we should have/have to put concrete under the wall which he said was OK build on!
The inspector is now denying he gave us the all clear even though he was been to see the work numourous times (before and after) and we have called him everytime we got to a certain point!
So now we have a dispute with the inspector/neighbours saying that we should have built 6 inches away with a concrete foundation!
I am pretty livid at the fact that he is not owing to his mistake and to get out of the matter he has said that the neighbours can take us to court over this and we should reach a compromise! (easy way out)
The neighbours basically want the max width of their kitchen, so they want to use our new wall as the boundary! As you can imagine they are being smart in the fact that all of the expense has been paid by us - they basically build up against our wall and gain 8" as they don't have to build a wall which is 12" and will shorten their kitchen width!
Where do I stand with this as I don't want the neighbours building on our wall! I will be having strong words with the inspector on this as he has led us down a dark alley!
I hope this makes sense - I have tried to explain it as easily as possible but appreciate it is difficult without seeing the property!
Appreciate any advice!
Thanks
This all sounds very odd. No building inspector would let you get away with laying a foundation like you've suggested. Foundations must be poured whole, not in seperate sections. The closest your extension can go to the boundry is the outside edge of the guttering or any overhang relevent. Foundations can only be laid from the boundry inwards to your land so, no, your neighbours cannot use your foundation or butt up to your wall.
Sound like a bit of a misunderstanding somewhere along the line.
Some pics would be very usefull.
Sound like a bit of a misunderstanding somewhere along the line.
Some pics would be very usefull.
Bit of a minefield this one...
A photo would really help, showing your build and the boundary and the neighbouring property..
As mentioned your plans, with the word approved on them, should show what you intended to do. If you've deviated you should have got it confirmed in writing, otherwise it's tough...
Your neighbours cannot simply attach their building to your wall. Just out of interest what sort of roof is being put on both of the extensions? Flat, single pitch or duo pitch? They cannot put parts of their property on your land. On the planning form it will ask if they own all of the land and they won't. As has been mentioned all of the parts of the property has to fall on your own side of the boundary, such that the gutters and roof structure is on your side of the boundary.
In an ideal world... You should have discussed this with the neighbours before starting and shared the cost. Your architect/draughtsperson should have recommended this, even if you shoulder a lot of the cost it works out cheaper all round and easier. You both gain the maximum amount, losing the least.. No one loses out.
A photo would really help, showing your build and the boundary and the neighbouring property..
As mentioned your plans, with the word approved on them, should show what you intended to do. If you've deviated you should have got it confirmed in writing, otherwise it's tough...
Your neighbours cannot simply attach their building to your wall. Just out of interest what sort of roof is being put on both of the extensions? Flat, single pitch or duo pitch? They cannot put parts of their property on your land. On the planning form it will ask if they own all of the land and they won't. As has been mentioned all of the parts of the property has to fall on your own side of the boundary, such that the gutters and roof structure is on your side of the boundary.
In an ideal world... You should have discussed this with the neighbours before starting and shared the cost. Your architect/draughtsperson should have recommended this, even if you shoulder a lot of the cost it works out cheaper all round and easier. You both gain the maximum amount, losing the least.. No one loses out.
We have gone with the plans and done exactly what the building inspector has asked/altered and advised!
Our wall is within our boundary, in fact 2" further in from the old wall.
We would have been happy to work together on this at the start but our neighbours are trying to pull a bit of a fast one. This with the inspector realising that he is in the wrong but not admiting it; he is trying to make us come to a compromise!
I'll attached a pic as soon as I can so it makes a bit more sense from my side!
Cheers
Our wall is within our boundary, in fact 2" further in from the old wall.
We would have been happy to work together on this at the start but our neighbours are trying to pull a bit of a fast one. This with the inspector realising that he is in the wrong but not admiting it; he is trying to make us come to a compromise!
I'll attached a pic as soon as I can so it makes a bit more sense from my side!
Cheers
as others have said you neighbors cannot build up to your wall, no part of their extension may cross the boundary including the foundation or eaves/guttering. It's surprising how many people seam to thing there wall can go on the boundary.
With regards to building control, have they been out and signed off the foundations?
With regards to building control, have they been out and signed off the foundations?
Anyone mention 3m notices being served before the kitchen extension? If you build within 3m of your neighbours foundations you should serve a 3 metre notice under the Party Wall etc Act 1996. If in doubt call a chartered building surveyor (local to you). This is a way of ensuring that you dont undermine their foundations. It might not be necessary in your case but photos would be good!
Picture attached!
Our new wall is built where the old wall was (well 1" within) - the trench is next doors!
Where do I stand as I'm told that I may need knock it down and build within 6"!
As I mentioned, the buidling inspector has come numerous times and seen where this wall was being built/and on what foundation but didn't raise a single commment! (this was almost 6 weeks ago)
Now he is saying that it is not right - do I have a case here as I pretty peeved with the ways things are going with him/neighbours!
Section 32 notice was also mentioned about have a deadline to do this!
The argument is around this 3rd Party wall act and boundary foundations but I annoyed this was not brought up 6 weeks ago!
Our new wall is built where the old wall was (well 1" within) - the trench is next doors!
Where do I stand as I'm told that I may need knock it down and build within 6"!
As I mentioned, the buidling inspector has come numerous times and seen where this wall was being built/and on what foundation but didn't raise a single commment! (this was almost 6 weeks ago)
Now he is saying that it is not right - do I have a case here as I pretty peeved with the ways things are going with him/neighbours!
Section 32 notice was also mentioned about have a deadline to do this!
The argument is around this 3rd Party wall act and boundary foundations but I annoyed this was not brought up 6 weeks ago!
Edited by VTEC_Killer on Tuesday 15th September 11:41
I think that you had better have a chat with the head of building control since this seems to be a bit of a mess. You should have issued a notice under the Party Wall etc. Act, as should your neighbour.
Since the wall is 2" onto your land your neighbour cannot use this as the end wall of his kitchen without commiting trespass - best to get this in writing ASAP.
The building inspector should have signed off your build at DPC level. If he did how does he explain his change of mind? If all esle fails then it may be cheaper to underpin your wall rather than knock it down.
Good luck, J
Since the wall is 2" onto your land your neighbour cannot use this as the end wall of his kitchen without commiting trespass - best to get this in writing ASAP.
The building inspector should have signed off your build at DPC level. If he did how does he explain his change of mind? If all esle fails then it may be cheaper to underpin your wall rather than knock it down.
Good luck, J
VTEC_Killer said:
do I have a case here as I pretty peeved with the ways things are going with him/neighbours!
What did the approved plans say about foundations? If you didn't have them approved in advance, tough. If you didn't build them in accordance with the prior approval, tough. If you have nothing in writing approving the plans, tough.Building control and their officers are there to make sure that the drawings and the actual on site work meet with the statutory requriements, ie are structurally sound, thermally efficient etc etc etc.
In 23 years of working in architecture, I have never heard a building control tell anyone where they should have built a wall. That's the job of the planning department, not building control. Yes they are usually in the same council department, but operate seperately. Legal boundaries etc are part of the planning application.
With regards to the drawings, unless your engaged a structural engineer, I would assume that whoever did the drawings, would have covered the foundations with a note like 'taken down to a firm building strata, and to the approval of building control'. Therefore, even if the plans are stamped approved, it's still down to site to agree the depth of the foundations.
Your builder must have notified building control once the foundations were excavated. Building control will then visit site, to ensure your builder has dug down deep enough so the ground has sufficient capacity to take the loads of the foundations and walls above. Once he has signed off the excavations, your builder can then pour the foundations. Your contractor has to notify building control at various stages of the build and will have made site visits to sign each area of the build off. Building control must have records of site visits, and the various elements as they signed them off.
I would contact the head of building control and run through dates and times, together with what was said. If they have signed the workmanship and details off, then you have nothing to worry about.
It sounds to me like your neighbours are trying to pull a fast one, and use your wall. That it is within your land means this can not be done, unless you agree to it, and sign that part of the land over to them.
With regards to using the existing foundation, I can not see how approval would have been given to it from building control unless they knew the size, the bearing capacity etc. The foundations should also have been tied to this existing one, with steel starter bars or similar. You may get differential settlement if the foundations can act independantly.
Good luck in sorting this mess out.
In 23 years of working in architecture, I have never heard a building control tell anyone where they should have built a wall. That's the job of the planning department, not building control. Yes they are usually in the same council department, but operate seperately. Legal boundaries etc are part of the planning application.
With regards to the drawings, unless your engaged a structural engineer, I would assume that whoever did the drawings, would have covered the foundations with a note like 'taken down to a firm building strata, and to the approval of building control'. Therefore, even if the plans are stamped approved, it's still down to site to agree the depth of the foundations.
Your builder must have notified building control once the foundations were excavated. Building control will then visit site, to ensure your builder has dug down deep enough so the ground has sufficient capacity to take the loads of the foundations and walls above. Once he has signed off the excavations, your builder can then pour the foundations. Your contractor has to notify building control at various stages of the build and will have made site visits to sign each area of the build off. Building control must have records of site visits, and the various elements as they signed them off.
I would contact the head of building control and run through dates and times, together with what was said. If they have signed the workmanship and details off, then you have nothing to worry about.
It sounds to me like your neighbours are trying to pull a fast one, and use your wall. That it is within your land means this can not be done, unless you agree to it, and sign that part of the land over to them.
With regards to using the existing foundation, I can not see how approval would have been given to it from building control unless they knew the size, the bearing capacity etc. The foundations should also have been tied to this existing one, with steel starter bars or similar. You may get differential settlement if the foundations can act independantly.
Good luck in sorting this mess out.
what is the foundation size and depth that you have used ?
What is the foundation depth of the main house ?
My first thought is that the neighbours foundation trench is in the wrong place , by being on your land . Their trench and foundation should be wholly on their land .
The perfect scenario would have been 2 neighbours talking about this and building one new party wall along the centre of the boundary but .
I would be resisting taking the wall down ,
Firstly I would want to know exactly why he wants it removed .
Then given a half reasonable existing foundation size , it is very likely that an engineer could work some calculation magic and prove the existing founds .
What council are you dealing with ?
What is the foundation depth of the main house ?
My first thought is that the neighbours foundation trench is in the wrong place , by being on your land . Their trench and foundation should be wholly on their land .
The perfect scenario would have been 2 neighbours talking about this and building one new party wall along the centre of the boundary but .
I would be resisting taking the wall down ,
Firstly I would want to know exactly why he wants it removed .
Then given a half reasonable existing foundation size , it is very likely that an engineer could work some calculation magic and prove the existing founds .
What council are you dealing with ?
Thanks for the input guys. This whole situation is a mess.
Toomuchbear - the problem we have is that the building inspector has been 6 weeks too late to serve notice of inproper foundations; at the time he clearly said we can use the existing base without the need for a new foundation (he must have been happy with what he saw though we were ready to lay the new base!)
Now he is saying that he gave the all clear for the inner wall, not the outside one! So he is backtracking and trying to shift the blame onto us!
He must have signed it off at DPC level though I haven't read the plans for the foundation layout!
The perfect scenario would have been to have build the wall in the middle of the boundary line and all parties happy - but they are too too stupid to act on this when the time was right!
This inspector has totally screwed this with us!
I thinking of taken legal advice against the b******d! Pointless or case worthy?
Toomuchbear - the problem we have is that the building inspector has been 6 weeks too late to serve notice of inproper foundations; at the time he clearly said we can use the existing base without the need for a new foundation (he must have been happy with what he saw though we were ready to lay the new base!)
Now he is saying that he gave the all clear for the inner wall, not the outside one! So he is backtracking and trying to shift the blame onto us!
He must have signed it off at DPC level though I haven't read the plans for the foundation layout!
The perfect scenario would have been to have build the wall in the middle of the boundary line and all parties happy - but they are too too stupid to act on this when the time was right!
This inspector has totally screwed this with us!
I thinking of taken legal advice against the b******d! Pointless or case worthy?
Agree with the above. bear in mind that if you can get approval for your founds then your neighbour will need to find a potentially expensive solution to the problem. He cannot undermine your foundations (so he needs to be level with the underside of yours) and he cannot cross over the party fence/wall line. He will need to serve the 3m notice under the Party Wall etc Act.
Having said that, if your wall has sufficient foundations for both is there any sense in agreeing to have him pay for a substantial amount of your new wall so that he can enclose on it? After all, it is now useless to you. You might be able to have a deed drawn up to maintain ownership (of the annexed) land in perpetuity. See a solicitor if it gets that far.
Calm down, stop worrying, get an engineer and find a solution that works for your pocket and leaves your neighbour with little choice.
Having said that, if your wall has sufficient foundations for both is there any sense in agreeing to have him pay for a substantial amount of your new wall so that he can enclose on it? After all, it is now useless to you. You might be able to have a deed drawn up to maintain ownership (of the annexed) land in perpetuity. See a solicitor if it gets that far.
Calm down, stop worrying, get an engineer and find a solution that works for your pocket and leaves your neighbour with little choice.
I think I would be tempted to see the inspector on his own and tell him that if he doesn't stop meddling in something which is not his business (ie the use of YOUR land) then you want a meeting with him, his boss and your builder. I can't believe the assertion that he signed off the inner wall without also approving the outer one - if so, why didn't he stop you once you continued building ? I thought that's what these guys were for ?
If he has made mistakes then he certainly won't want that and it will all go away because he'll calm down your neighbours. If he hasn't, then you need it sorting out now and not dragging on simply because any disputes like this will affect you when you come to sell the house and could even prevent a sale.
It's your decision but personally I wouldn't let a neighbour build on my land and certainly not bridge into my wall with a structure for their property. You may be very friendly with the folks next door but people move and your next neighbour might be a whole load of trouble as far as a joint ownership goes.
If he has made mistakes then he certainly won't want that and it will all go away because he'll calm down your neighbours. If he hasn't, then you need it sorting out now and not dragging on simply because any disputes like this will affect you when you come to sell the house and could even prevent a sale.
It's your decision but personally I wouldn't let a neighbour build on my land and certainly not bridge into my wall with a structure for their property. You may be very friendly with the folks next door but people move and your next neighbour might be a whole load of trouble as far as a joint ownership goes.
I agree with Busamav. Don't stress. Building Control have got nothing to do with Boundary or Party Wall matters other that to ensure that any relevant structures comply with the Building Regs.
Based purely on what you've said it does sound like your neighbour is trying to get something for nothing. It's a shame the two of you didn't discuss your collective plans to begin with and then raised a Party Wall. Would have certainly dealt with this whole situation and not created a six inch gap between the propoerties that IS going to cause problems in the future.
As to resolving the situation. The District Surveyor/Inspector may certainly have allowed you to use the existing foundations if they are of a suitable size.
Are the foundations blocking the neighbour from laying their foundations?
For the record, under the Party Wall Act you are entitled to build up to the Boundary Line as long as the eaves don't trespass and the foundations are such that they can be cut back to allow footings to abut them.
Where abouts in the country are you?
ETA,
Yorkshire. Not sure I know anyone local that could help but I'll double check my contacts.
Based purely on what you've said it does sound like your neighbour is trying to get something for nothing. It's a shame the two of you didn't discuss your collective plans to begin with and then raised a Party Wall. Would have certainly dealt with this whole situation and not created a six inch gap between the propoerties that IS going to cause problems in the future.
As to resolving the situation. The District Surveyor/Inspector may certainly have allowed you to use the existing foundations if they are of a suitable size.
Are the foundations blocking the neighbour from laying their foundations?
For the record, under the Party Wall Act you are entitled to build up to the Boundary Line as long as the eaves don't trespass and the foundations are such that they can be cut back to allow footings to abut them.
Where abouts in the country are you?
ETA,
Yorkshire. Not sure I know anyone local that could help but I'll double check my contacts.
Edited by mk1fan on Tuesday 15th September 18:10
b2hbm said:
I can't believe the assertion that he signed off the inner wall without also approving the outer one - if so, why didn't he stop you once you continued building ? I thought that's what these guys were for ?
That is exactly the problem I'm facing - he came to site 2 more times after he had signed it off and didn't even mention a whisker!A meeting with his superior is defo in need!
He has meddled with the situation so much that he was suggesting that the garden wall (that splits the gardens) belongs to my neighbour even though it is clearly on my land (I've checked the deeds/boundary etc)
Worst case scenario is that I will have to knock the wall down and build within 6" with new foundations but I'm hoping he will come to compromise and let support the wall via new concrete or inserting a RSJ/beam underneath!
I get the feeling he doesn't want the idea of us knocking the wall with the view I might escalate things legally!
Can the council force me to knock it down?
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