Buying 4 bed house with loft conversion - no building regs

[prand]

We're going through the process of purchasing a 4 bed house. One of the rooms is a loft conversion (staircase, dormer, velux etc), and is classed as one of the 4 bedrooms.

This work was done a fair while ago (at least pre 1994) and the current owners don't have evidence of building regs approval, although there is correspondence with the local planning office confirming it is within the permitted development threshold. The conversion certainly wouldn't pass current regs, i.e he staircase is not enclosed and there are no self closing doors downstairs.

I'm concerned less that we might be burned alive in the loft room, more than in the future we try and sell the house and it can only be marketed as a 3 bed.

I've got our solicitors on the case doing some digging, but I expect I could get a quicker reasonable answer on here!

Where do we stand with this? Is there a cutoff point for previous work that means building regs don't apply? Would indemnity insurance cover us so that we could sell this in the future without worry?

Cheers!

[Davi]

Building regs cannot be retrospectively employed - it only needed to meet the regs in place at the time the work was completed. My 2 extensions span 2 different sets of regs (by 2 months) and some things I can get away with on the larger part I can't on the lower part - but it's all above board!

Personally my concern would more be that if Building Regs weren't adhered to that the job was structurely sound. The amount of conversions I've seen done where they didn't even bother putting new joists down and built on top of very old 3x2 roof joists...

[prand]

Joists is very a good question. This is being looked at by our surveyor.

[Sam_68]

If I remember correctly (without checking up on the documentation), Local Authority Building Control departments have a legal obligation to keep copies of Building Regulations Applications for either 10 or 15 years (I can't remember which). I know 'cos I spent one of my summer vactions from university checking trhough the archives of Leeds City Council and binning anything older than the cut-off point to free up storage space.

....given that they have no obligation to keep files to check against beyond this date, common sence would suggest that they have no powers of enforcement, either.

But if you're thinking of buying a house, wouldn't you be better off asking your solicitors to check this out, rather than asking on a motoring forum? That's what you're paying them for, after all...

[prand]

Thanks Sam - I ask on here as I can imagine this is a fairly common issue with older houses that no doubt quite a few PH community have gone through. It might not be legal advice, but a handful of people's real world experience supplied in a few minutes rather than wait hours/days for a response from my solicitors, is what I'm after right now.

But saying that. You are completely right. Bcause I'd be slightly f*cked if I took your advice!

If I went ahead with an enquiry to the council on the status of building regs on this house, that would pretty much invalidate the indemnity insurance I might be taking out.

[BRGV8S]

I'am surprised your not concirned about thr fire risk, having visited several fires involving 'loft conversions' the result can be horrific and not for the fainted hearted.

Whilst you may be reassured by the dormer do you realy want your fammily exiting by that route late at night.

Fully protected stairway direct to external door at ground floor is there in regs for a reason, your health and safety. Fire alarm also gives early warning.

If you buy i would suggest appliying for retrospective approval and/or ask the seller to apply.

[prand]

BRGV8S said:

I'am surprised your not concirned about thr fire risk, having visited several fires involving 'loft conversions' the result can be horrific and not for the fainted hearted.

Whilst you may be reassured by the dormer do you realy want your fammily exiting by that route late at night.

Fully protected stairway direct to external door at ground floor is there in regs for a reason, your health and safety. Fire alarm also gives early warning.

If you buy i would suggest appliying for retrospective approval and/or ask the seller to apply.

Fair enough. Of course fire is always a concern, and I will be taking steps, to reduce the risk and impact of this occuring. I still don't want to box up the stairway though.

[Busamav]

prand said:

If I went ahead with an enquiry to the council on the status of building regs on this house, that would pretty much invalidate the indemnity insurance I might be taking out.

The very most important thing to remember.

Maybe an informal search at the building regs reception desk will be the best approach to see if the have anything ,

I doubt it though as I cannot recall a time when you didnt have to upgrade existing doors to fire doors in the last 35 years

[Dr_Gonzo]

I didn't think an estate agent could legally describe a loft conversion as a bedroom unless it had/has been granted the correct planning permission and passed the building regs (at the time of construction) or be granted retrospective approval.

[andy43]

As above - the agent shouldn't be marketing a non-compliant room - but if there's stairs, daylight, and heating, no agent is qualified to decide whether the room's usable. It's more clear cut if your loft conversion involves a ladder If the conversion is pre '94, ie 15 years old minimum, it may well have met the then current regs anyway, without special doors and emergency liferafts etc.
You're right with the retrospective application - once that's gone in, no indemnity can be bought, thus making the property pretty much unsaleable - a solicitor wouldn't advise buying in that case, and a mortgage may be difficult.
A retrospective application could be made once you own the house, if you're completely mad, but realistically that'd involve opening up floors/ceilings/walls to check for insulation/structure to 1994 standards. I'd go ahead and buy with some serious money off and fit fire doors/self closers/smoke alarms personally, if the floor's 3" deep joists aren't too bouncy
And never apply for retrospective approval - that'd be a proper can of worms in this case.
Biggest problem may be lack of insulation under the heat-absorbing roof tiles - our dormers were 1971 standard - frostbite in winter and heatstroke in summer.

Edited by andy43 on Wednesday 12th August 16:06

[prand]

Cheers for the info guys. I have got our solicitor asking the relevant questions of the vendors. I might also have a word with the Estate Agent and see how he's going to get out of this one...we might be in a useful negotiating position.

Speaking to the surveyor, he feels the conversion is an old one (early 80s), but good for its time (has good reinforcing and insulation) though fire safety leaves a lot to be desired. He feels its practically immune from council enforcement as the work was done so long ago.

So really I need to deal with two things -

a) My attitude to fire risk and the options on what needs to be done without having to completely remodel the house. I'd be comfortable using the room as an office/occasional guest room, install smoke alarms, fire escape, self closing doors to room etc to help me sleep at night.

and b), How to ensure there are no problems when we decide to sell this as a 4 bedroom house in the future, and potentially wasting/losing a chunk of money over this issue. So by obtaining evidence of when the work was done, ideally to the building regs of the time, indemnity insurance and so on, I will be happy.

Edited by prand on Wednesday 12th August 18:10

[Sam_68]

andy43 said:

As above - the agent shouldn't be marketing a non-compliant room - but if there's stairs, daylight, and heating, no agent is qualified to decide whether the room's usable. It's more clear cut if your loft conversion involves a ladder

But even then... current Building Regulations allow the use of a fixed ladder for loft conversions, provided:

• The loft conversion only has one habitable room (and bathrooms/en-suites/stores without windows don't count as 'habitable' and;
• There isn't space to install a proper stair.

Of course whether or not there is space for a proper stair is open to the interpretation of the individual Building Control Officer, 'cos he's got to balance it against reasonable impact on the rest of the accomodation in the house.

[Sam_68]

prand said:

But saying that. You are completely right. Because I'd be slightly f*cked if I took your advice!

If I went ahead with an enquiry to the council on the status of building regs on this house, that would pretty much invalidate the indemnity insurance I might be taking out.

What I was trying to say was that if you're saying the conversion was done pre-1994, you don't need to make an enquiry with the Local Authority, though; you just need to establish the correct figure for the number of years that Building Control has to retain records and has powers of enforcement - the conversion was almost certainly done so long ago that they wouln't be able to enforce against it, anyway.

But your Solicitor ought to be able to give you a definitive answer on how long a local authority retains powers of enforcement.

I could look it up for you, but frankly I can't be bothered!

[Busamav]

Sam_68 said:

[you just need to establish the correct figure for the number of years that Building Control has to retain records and has powers of enforcement - the conversion was almost certainly done so long ago that they wouln't be able to enforce against it, anyway.

But your Solicitor ought to be able to give you a definitive answer on how long a local authority retains powers of enforcement.

I could look it up for you, but frankly I can't be bothered!

I had a conversation with a Building Inspector about this recently , He said they have 25 years to come gunning for you , but of course that isnt going to happen .

As to the risk of sleeping up there , if there was fully interlinked mains operated smoke detection to all floors I wouldnt be concerned .

To me the fire door malarky for loft extensions is a white elephant , officials just wanting to be seen to be doing something .
If a fire door is wide open, it is fukk all use anyway , closers are not required to lower floors as part of the regs , so make your own mind up on how they judge the risk.

[Gareth79]

You can get some decent fire escape ladders which fit in a box bolted under the window - open the window, throw out, climb down.