Another leaking roof
Discussion
Not knowing whether to join the other thread, so I thought I'd or start a new one!!
I have a leak which is directly below the vertical tiles and on the very edge of the horizontal ones.
There is no damage or splits in the lead flashing.
Would the rain work its way along and off the edge of the flat tiles underneath the flashing?
As in the pics, the there is a gap where the lead drops down over each tile which I think perhaps should be smaller,but not sure if this is the problem.
Any thought from those in the industry or not !!!!
I have a leak which is directly below the vertical tiles and on the very edge of the horizontal ones.
There is no damage or splits in the lead flashing.
Would the rain work its way along and off the edge of the flat tiles underneath the flashing?
As in the pics, the there is a gap where the lead drops down over each tile which I think perhaps should be smaller,but not sure if this is the problem.
Any thought from those in the industry or not !!!!
Well, I've seen better leadwork.
Where does the leak appear to be? I'd hazard a guess at somewhere near the second overlap?
The lead isn't really tight enough to the bottom edge of the tiles, and in some ways I'd have thought (especially with vertical tiles) a hidden gutter would have been a better solution, in this case.
It's certainly what I would have suggested.
Where does the leak appear to be? I'd hazard a guess at somewhere near the second overlap?
The lead isn't really tight enough to the bottom edge of the tiles, and in some ways I'd have thought (especially with vertical tiles) a hidden gutter would have been a better solution, in this case.
It's certainly what I would have suggested.
From inside the loft you can see the edge of the pitched roof. There is water trickling down the edge of the felt and further down you can see water dripping off the underside of the pitched roof tiles. The edge of the timber tile battens also look wet.This is all directly below where the two sets of tiles meet.
There is a pool in the felt and is dripping off the rafter between the two roofs.
Any thoughts on a solution?
There is a pool in the felt and is dripping off the rafter between the two roofs.
Any thoughts on a solution?
I'd get a couple of roofers to have a look at it, as that should not be happening. from those photos, I'd be looking at removing the Modern tiles for a width of maybe three tiles away from the hanging tiles, and be looking at installing an abutment or secret gutter. It may be that the entire area will need to be redone, correctly designed and installed roofs don't leak.
Something has obviously failed/not worked, I'd not be too sure about the capabilities of the bloke that did that, because the vertical tiles have been mitred (winchester cut) and then covered by a very wide lead flashing, and I'm not sure what that strip of lead is supposed to do, because it is covered by the verge strip above.
If you go to www.marleyeternit.co.uk and click on roof tiles, then plain tiles, and go to page 47 onwards, you'll see what I mean. They've done a bit of both, but correctly done neither.
In all honesty, it really needs to be redone properly, I'm afraid.
Something has obviously failed/not worked, I'd not be too sure about the capabilities of the bloke that did that, because the vertical tiles have been mitred (winchester cut) and then covered by a very wide lead flashing, and I'm not sure what that strip of lead is supposed to do, because it is covered by the verge strip above.
If you go to www.marleyeternit.co.uk and click on roof tiles, then plain tiles, and go to page 47 onwards, you'll see what I mean. They've done a bit of both, but correctly done neither.
In all honesty, it really needs to be redone properly, I'm afraid.
I'm with mm. That looks very poor.
Very little overlap between the sections of flashngs. Looks a bit narrow too. Given the standard of finish to the visible leadwork are all the soakers etc... there aswell? Initially, I think not.
Is the staining along the entire wall of just localised? How old is the property? How long has it been damp? You COULD have problems (caused by the damp) with any timber in the area too.
Very little overlap between the sections of flashngs. Looks a bit narrow too. Given the standard of finish to the visible leadwork are all the soakers etc... there aswell? Initially, I think not.
Is the staining along the entire wall of just localised? How old is the property? How long has it been damp? You COULD have problems (caused by the damp) with any timber in the area too.
The property is about 20 years old. Not sure how long it's been leaking as it's only recently managed to work it's way through the plasterboard ceiling which indicated a problem.
There is a patch in the felt where its been collecting and eventually dripped through, this is between the two rafters below the leadwork.
All the timber in the loft looks sound, the rain was running of the edge of the felt, onto the rafter then dripping off.Will take some pics.
There is a patch in the felt where its been collecting and eventually dripped through, this is between the two rafters below the leadwork.
All the timber in the loft looks sound, the rain was running of the edge of the felt, onto the rafter then dripping off.Will take some pics.
That is certainly very messy. The basic structure is very poorly detailed.
My thoughts would be that the basic structure isn't suitable for the abutment detail to be properly weathered.
There doesn't seem to be an overlapp between the felt under the vertical tiling and the pitched tiling.
Sorry to say it but that looks like typical developer poor design and workmanship. A great example of trying to attain the standards of the Building Regs rather than (correctly) using the minimum standards as a starting point.
Unless you're handy with the tools you'll need to get a builder in.
My thoughts would be that the basic structure isn't suitable for the abutment detail to be properly weathered.
There doesn't seem to be an overlapp between the felt under the vertical tiling and the pitched tiling.
Sorry to say it but that looks like typical developer poor design and workmanship. A great example of trying to attain the standards of the Building Regs rather than (correctly) using the minimum standards as a starting point.
Unless you're handy with the tools you'll need to get a builder in.
I particularily like the 3x2's used to fix the lead flashing too. It looks like the lead flashing has been fixed over the felt sarking behind the vertical tiles too. So any water that gets behind the vertical tiles runs straight into the loft. Nice.
ETA: oh and I can't see any soakers in the second to last photo. Typical Developer quality there - regardless of the value of the home.
ETA: oh and I can't see any soakers in the second to last photo. Typical Developer quality there - regardless of the value of the home.
Edited by mk1fan on Tuesday 11th August 10:38
Based purely on the photographs and IDEALY - before the 'you don't need to pay someone' losers reply - you'll need to strip off the vertical tiling and part of the pitched roof.
The batens and underfelt beneath the vertical tiles should be stripped off to.
Then the gable wall section should be clad in exterior grade plywood or osb board.
The felt underlay beneath the pitched tiles needs to extend 150mm up the new cladding.
Then the pitched tiles can be reinstated including soakers.
The lead cover flashing can then be reinstated over the felt underlay and pitched tiles. It should be properly dressed over each tile not floped over them like existing.
ETA: It looks like you've got a combination of water getting behind the vertical tiles and running into the building and water being blown under the poorly dressed lead flashing and running into the building.
The gable can then be underfelted (lapped over the top of the lead cover flashing) and cross battened out.
The vertical tiles can then be reinstated.
Doing this will move the gable wall out by about 50mm, so the whole wall needs to be looked at to make sure it can move this far. Alternatively, you could not clad the whole gable but just the bottom 300mm and leave it flush with the outer face of the timber studwork. This would give the support needed to the abutment.
Again as an alternative you could continue the vertical felt underlay under the pitched tiles (but above the pitched felt underlay) by 300mm and then the lead flashing would become purely cosmetic. This is abit heath robinson though.
Finally you could form a hidden gutter at the abutment but that is getting a bit complicated.
The batens and underfelt beneath the vertical tiles should be stripped off to.
Then the gable wall section should be clad in exterior grade plywood or osb board.
The felt underlay beneath the pitched tiles needs to extend 150mm up the new cladding.
Then the pitched tiles can be reinstated including soakers.
The lead cover flashing can then be reinstated over the felt underlay and pitched tiles. It should be properly dressed over each tile not floped over them like existing.
ETA: It looks like you've got a combination of water getting behind the vertical tiles and running into the building and water being blown under the poorly dressed lead flashing and running into the building.
The gable can then be underfelted (lapped over the top of the lead cover flashing) and cross battened out.
The vertical tiles can then be reinstated.
Doing this will move the gable wall out by about 50mm, so the whole wall needs to be looked at to make sure it can move this far. Alternatively, you could not clad the whole gable but just the bottom 300mm and leave it flush with the outer face of the timber studwork. This would give the support needed to the abutment.
Again as an alternative you could continue the vertical felt underlay under the pitched tiles (but above the pitched felt underlay) by 300mm and then the lead flashing would become purely cosmetic. This is abit heath robinson though.
Finally you could form a hidden gutter at the abutment but that is getting a bit complicated.
Edited by mk1fan on Tuesday 11th August 12:10
mk1fan said:
Based purely on the photographs and IDEALY - before the 'you don't need to pay someone' losers reply - you'll need to strip off the vertical tiling and part of the pitched roof.
Well, someone has already been paid to make that mess already, a so called professional in the trade. Sure it has to be repaired properly but insist on a guarantee in the contract of work and hand over no money until it's been inspected by another pair of eyes after the work has been completed. The guarantee should reflect the type of work carried out. In this situation, it should last at least 5 years, so that is the term that needs to be stipulated. Too many so called 'professionals' walk away and when a problem occurs, deny any kind of responsibility.I doubt a reputable tradesmen has been anywhere near that roof during it's construction and I question the level of involvment of any Professional in it's design. So I can't see how you can make the statement 'a so called professional' I also assume that you mean the generic term proffesional meaning someone who does work for pay [which includes all the employed] rather than the specific term Professional [denoting someone of learning and responsibility like a Doctor] which does not apply to Tradesmen. A Professional will have PI cover to indemnify a client against negligence. If they don't have that cover then their not a Professional.
At the end of the day, building work guarantees are the same as any other guarantee or warranty and should be read as such.
5-years? That sort of roof should last 20+ with minimal maintenance - inflicted damage aside.
At the end of the day, building work guarantees are the same as any other guarantee or warranty and should be read as such.
5-years? That sort of roof should last 20+ with minimal maintenance - inflicted damage aside.
Short answer is there are those that do but - in domestic situations - they're irrelevant.
Not wanting to sound like I'm being personal and / or abusive and I'm not starting an arguement, you've previously made negative comments on costs and works identified by tradesmen. And come accross as distrustful of people in the industry. The fact of the matter is these guarantees need to be underwritten and is an average home owner going to be bothered about whether their house leaks or not in 20-years time when more than likely they're not going to be there? So why pay a premium for it?
IMO I'd prefer replacement/repair to peacemeal/patch repair but that's me. I also accept that I need to maintain a home. Others don't and that's their business and choice.
Now in my mind a guarantee for the repairs to this particular roof need only be 12-months for defects and workmanship. If completed competently, only settlement defects will occur and you've got give it a year to go through all the seasons. After that any other defects would be the result of damage - say a storm - or failure of another element of the roof not touched by the incoming tradesman.
Extended guarantees would also have the incumbant 'maintenance requirement' that modern home owners avoid - one of the reasons why PVCu windows and doors are so popular and (mis)sold so well.
I've got 40-year guarantees on tourch-on felt overlay systems for my commercial clients. FORTY years. It's the same stuff that's used in domestic buildings.
It's a good idea to get the works agreed by and inspected by an independant third party but there would be a cost for this. Alternatively, you could try the District Surveyor in your local Building Control department. They won't oversee or specify the works needed but they can comment on the existing detailing and where it falls short.
Not wanting to sound like I'm being personal and / or abusive and I'm not starting an arguement, you've previously made negative comments on costs and works identified by tradesmen. And come accross as distrustful of people in the industry. The fact of the matter is these guarantees need to be underwritten and is an average home owner going to be bothered about whether their house leaks or not in 20-years time when more than likely they're not going to be there? So why pay a premium for it?
IMO I'd prefer replacement/repair to peacemeal/patch repair but that's me. I also accept that I need to maintain a home. Others don't and that's their business and choice.
Now in my mind a guarantee for the repairs to this particular roof need only be 12-months for defects and workmanship. If completed competently, only settlement defects will occur and you've got give it a year to go through all the seasons. After that any other defects would be the result of damage - say a storm - or failure of another element of the roof not touched by the incoming tradesman.
Extended guarantees would also have the incumbant 'maintenance requirement' that modern home owners avoid - one of the reasons why PVCu windows and doors are so popular and (mis)sold so well.
I've got 40-year guarantees on tourch-on felt overlay systems for my commercial clients. FORTY years. It's the same stuff that's used in domestic buildings.
It's a good idea to get the works agreed by and inspected by an independant third party but there would be a cost for this. Alternatively, you could try the District Surveyor in your local Building Control department. They won't oversee or specify the works needed but they can comment on the existing detailing and where it falls short.
mk1fan said:
The fact of the matter is these guarantees need to be underwritten and is an average home owner going to be bothered about whether their house leaks or not in 20-years time when more than likely they're not going to be there? So why pay a premium for it?
Why should there be a premium in the first place if a job is done as it should be? I've had my place 16 years and everytime I've had a 'professional tradesman' in the past, I've had to do alot of rework. I now do most things myself because with a bit of research, no special expertise is required that can't be assimilated over a few hours. It also means next time around, it becomes even easier.As an example, I have a maintenance plan for my boiler with British Gas. I now have a problem with my boiler for which I have researched and discovered what the problem is (needs a new PCB). I instructed BG when making an appointment for their engineer to come over that he should bring a spare PCB with him because I was sure that was the fault. My brother had the same issue and I researched the problem then and bingo - PCB. However, BG insist that their engineer knows best. So, he will now come over without the PCB and then discover this is the problem. I will then have to make another appointment, bla, bla, bla. The only reason I signed up to BG is because of the legalities of reparing this myself. It's a 10 minute job but of course the 'pprofessional tradesman/crafstmen' know best
There's a premium for it in the same way that there is a premium built into the cost of a fridge you buy. There are top end fridges that you can buy very long warranties included but they cost more than a standard white jobbie from Argos that only come with the bare minimum.
pedant mode - there are no professional tradesmen. They are tradesmen. The term 'Professional' has unfortunately lost its meaning as the various industries, service providers and sales people have usurped it to lend more importance to non-professional careers. Unfortunately, the term tradesman is also losing its meaning as the craft and skills that were developed under apprenterships have been replaced with GNVQ's and check boxes.
There is a broad quality of tradesmen out there - as in any industry - but if you have only ever had bad ones then I would suggest that you - regardless of what you can find out on the internet - are not informed enough to instruct or choose them in the first place. Perhaps you need to take some Professional advice before you employ the Trades.
pedant mode - there are no professional tradesmen. They are tradesmen. The term 'Professional' has unfortunately lost its meaning as the various industries, service providers and sales people have usurped it to lend more importance to non-professional careers. Unfortunately, the term tradesman is also losing its meaning as the craft and skills that were developed under apprenterships have been replaced with GNVQ's and check boxes.
There is a broad quality of tradesmen out there - as in any industry - but if you have only ever had bad ones then I would suggest that you - regardless of what you can find out on the internet - are not informed enough to instruct or choose them in the first place. Perhaps you need to take some Professional advice before you employ the Trades.
mk1fan said:
There's a premium for it in the same way that there is a premium built into the cost of a fridge you buy. There are top end fridges that you can buy very long warranties included but they cost more than a standard white jobbie from Argos that only come with the bare minimum.
pedant mode - there are no professional tradesmen. They are tradesmen. The term 'Professional' has unfortunately lost its meaning as the various industries, service providers and sales people have usurped it to lend more importance to non-professional careers. Unfortunately, the term tradesman is also losing its meaning as the craft and skills that were developed under apprenterships have been replaced with GNVQ's and check boxes.
There is a broad quality of tradesmen out there - as in any industry - but if you have only ever had bad ones then I would suggest that you - regardless of what you can find out on the internet - are not informed enough to instruct or choose them in the first place. Perhaps you need to take some Professional advice before you employ the Trades.
The best advice I can offer is to look at doing these jobs oneself. As I said before, there's no particular skill involved in most of the building/decorating/repair industry, just scaremongering from the industry itself in order to relieve people of their money.pedant mode - there are no professional tradesmen. They are tradesmen. The term 'Professional' has unfortunately lost its meaning as the various industries, service providers and sales people have usurped it to lend more importance to non-professional careers. Unfortunately, the term tradesman is also losing its meaning as the craft and skills that were developed under apprenterships have been replaced with GNVQ's and check boxes.
There is a broad quality of tradesmen out there - as in any industry - but if you have only ever had bad ones then I would suggest that you - regardless of what you can find out on the internet - are not informed enough to instruct or choose them in the first place. Perhaps you need to take some Professional advice before you employ the Trades.
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