Online electric circuit interactive thingy ???
Discussion
I am going to be building a camper van for a european adventure, and will be needing to do some basic wiring.
Is there anything on the net where you can play with a circuit before had to see if it works ?
I will need these as a basic
1) 2/3 batteries (separate to the engines one )
2) the battries to run on one circuit Led lights in the van
3) on another circuit run a stereo and tv/dvd player ( 12v )
4) the engine to charge the batteries in the back whilst driving
5) the engine battery to not be drained when I run the other stuff.
Now I know nothing about this so what would like look like ( in kiddy basic terms ? )
Also I would want at least two plug sockets to run 240v things from ( this I know will need a inverter/converter? )
I am also thinking of putting a electrical hook up for when we are at campsites, but thinking that might be a massive faff so might just have a small generator ( how would you hook that up )?
I won't be building this thing til end of next year but figured I should get a head start regards the wiring so i can learn it early.
Any help or tips gratefully recieved.
P.S. I learn best doing stuff so any little cheap projects ( school type of stuff ) to help a newbie learn would be great.
Is there anything on the net where you can play with a circuit before had to see if it works ?
I will need these as a basic
1) 2/3 batteries (separate to the engines one )
2) the battries to run on one circuit Led lights in the van
3) on another circuit run a stereo and tv/dvd player ( 12v )
4) the engine to charge the batteries in the back whilst driving
5) the engine battery to not be drained when I run the other stuff.
Now I know nothing about this so what would like look like ( in kiddy basic terms ? )
Also I would want at least two plug sockets to run 240v things from ( this I know will need a inverter/converter? )
I am also thinking of putting a electrical hook up for when we are at campsites, but thinking that might be a massive faff so might just have a small generator ( how would you hook that up )?
I won't be building this thing til end of next year but figured I should get a head start regards the wiring so i can learn it early.
Any help or tips gratefully recieved.
P.S. I learn best doing stuff so any little cheap projects ( school type of stuff ) to help a newbie learn would be great.
Don't underestimate the weight of the batteries and generator. You might end up with 100kg's+ to cart around which isn't nice.
Other things to consider are how are you going to charge the batteries? Will the alternator be up to the job or will you have to design some change rate limiter to stop you killing it all the time.
First thing I'd do is produce a spreadsheet of all the loads and go from there. You might find you're in generator land from the off. That does sort out all the inverter issues as well.
Interesting project
Other things to consider are how are you going to charge the batteries? Will the alternator be up to the job or will you have to design some change rate limiter to stop you killing it all the time.
First thing I'd do is produce a spreadsheet of all the loads and go from there. You might find you're in generator land from the off. That does sort out all the inverter issues as well.
Interesting project
ThatPhilBrettGuy said:
Don't underestimate the weight of the batteries and generator. You might end up with 100kg's+ to cart around which isn't nice.
Other things to consider are how are you going to charge the batteries? Will the alternator be up to the job or will you have to design some change rate limiter to stop you killing it all the time.
First thing I'd do is produce a spreadsheet of all the loads and go from there. You might find you're in generator land from the off. That does sort out all the inverter issues as well.
Interesting project
The van will probably be a LDV Maxus, or a mini bus Convoy ( rated to 3.5 tonne ) I used to have a non turbo version and it was great, basic, big and cheap perfect for what I want plus I can get a turbo version if needs be.Other things to consider are how are you going to charge the batteries? Will the alternator be up to the job or will you have to design some change rate limiter to stop you killing it all the time.
First thing I'd do is produce a spreadsheet of all the loads and go from there. You might find you're in generator land from the off. That does sort out all the inverter issues as well.
Interesting project
I would rather have the extra 100kg and have the power ( probably have 2 leasure batteries and a small genny ). Was thinking of using the alternator but again not knowing anything about any of this your comments seem to suggest that I would bend that trying to do that. These are the thing I need to know/learn about.
I am trying to keep it as basic as possible, ie 2 seperate light circuits ( one for the bed section one for the living section which can be switched on independately of each other. stearo and tv ( 12v to keep it simple ) and then 2 240 volt sockets for laptop, phone charger, her hairdrier etc ).
When you say add up the loads, what am I looking for ? watts each item uses ?
Ideally it would be nice to charge the batteries as I drive and have a small genny as a back up ( thinking even small gennys are loud on a campsite, plus doubt they can be used whilst the van is moving.
Tampon said:
When you say add up the loads, what am I looking for ? watts each item uses ?
Yup, and add one about 20% for anything running up the inverter to be safe.Once you've got those figures it's easy you draw the load / run time graph and you can see if you'll be running the lights for weeks off just the van battery or having to tow a milkfloat behind!
You need to get an idea of the power consumption of everything; chargers, lights, hairdryers, microwave ovens etc; and how long you plan to use each for. This will give you an idea of the size of battery you need. Eg. a 75Ah battery will provide 75A for one hour [in theory], 37.5A for two hours, just over 3A for 24 hrs etc.
Divide the wattage of each appliance by 12 to determine how many amps it uses through an inverter. So a 100W appliance will use 8A through an inverter. (Lots). That'll drain your 75Ah battery in less than 10 hours. Check how efficient the inverter is - they usually get hot, so maybe they'll use an additional 10% ?
Ideally you'd have a system that could take mains power [don't forget to check all the different socket types for where you're going], or run a generator, and use either to charge the 'leisure' batteries. You can use a split charger to charge the batteries from the engine alternator (might need to uprate it?). You can then get mains power from the batteries via an inverter. I think you can buy inverter/chargers which do it all in one box.
Have a look at the boating world too as they have combo 12v/240v systems which by nature need multiple energy sources.
Put fuses on everything. Look at using welding wire for the high current stuff, cheaper than "prosumer" in-car-audio cable.
Divide the wattage of each appliance by 12 to determine how many amps it uses through an inverter. So a 100W appliance will use 8A through an inverter. (Lots). That'll drain your 75Ah battery in less than 10 hours. Check how efficient the inverter is - they usually get hot, so maybe they'll use an additional 10% ?
Ideally you'd have a system that could take mains power [don't forget to check all the different socket types for where you're going], or run a generator, and use either to charge the 'leisure' batteries. You can use a split charger to charge the batteries from the engine alternator (might need to uprate it?). You can then get mains power from the batteries via an inverter. I think you can buy inverter/chargers which do it all in one box.
Have a look at the boating world too as they have combo 12v/240v systems which by nature need multiple energy sources.
Put fuses on everything. Look at using welding wire for the high current stuff, cheaper than "prosumer" in-car-audio cable.
Edited by john_p on Thursday 23 July 14:06
12v, again
Say you have a 12v 60W lightbulb and a 240v 60W lightbulb
The 12v/60W will use 5A if connected via the battery.
The 240v/60W will use 0.25A if connected via mains, but (to oversimplify massively ) to 'make' 240v from 12v, an inverter has to 'suck' 20x as much current, i.e. 20x0.25A = 5A. Assuming it's 90% efficient, that means 5.5A in reality.
So if you can use 12v, much better.
Say you have a 12v 60W lightbulb and a 240v 60W lightbulb
The 12v/60W will use 5A if connected via the battery.
The 240v/60W will use 0.25A if connected via mains, but (to oversimplify massively ) to 'make' 240v from 12v, an inverter has to 'suck' 20x as much current, i.e. 20x0.25A = 5A. Assuming it's 90% efficient, that means 5.5A in reality.
So if you can use 12v, much better.
Edited by john_p on Thursday 23 July 16:00
john_p said:
12v, again
Say you have a 12v 60W lightbulb and a 240v 60W lightbulb
The 12v/60W will use 5A if connected via the battery.
The 240v/60W will use 0.25A if connected via mains, but (to oversimplify massively ) to 'make' 240v from 12v, an inverter has to 'suck' 20x as much current, i.e. 20x0.25A = 5A. Assuming it's 90% efficient, that means 5.5A in reality.
So if you can use 12v, much better.
Ok so roughly the same amount of drain on the battery ( except for the loss through the inverter ).Say you have a 12v 60W lightbulb and a 240v 60W lightbulb
The 12v/60W will use 5A if connected via the battery.
The 240v/60W will use 0.25A if connected via mains, but (to oversimplify massively ) to 'make' 240v from 12v, an inverter has to 'suck' 20x as much current, i.e. 20x0.25A = 5A. Assuming it's 90% efficient, that means 5.5A in reality.
So if you can use 12v, much better.
Edited by john_p on Thursday 23 July 16:00
This might sound obvious, but if I am using a 12v appliance like the led lights, can I wire them directly with no inverter ? also what about appliances how do they plug in to the 12v system ?( like the tv, it has a switchable power source, 12v/240v, common on boats ) will I use a "normal" plug socket )
Yes, you can connect directly to the battery. Make sure you get the polarity (positive, negative) right.
Not sure what plug your TV will have for 12v - maybe like a cigarette lighter ?
In a car the negative battery terminal is 'earthed' to the car body and you run a cable from the battery positive terminal to anything that needs power. Then the device is connected to the car body nearby. This simplifies wiring.
It depends how neat you want it really. 12v power sockets everywhere is no problem, provided it's all fused and cabled correctly, but 240v gets a bit tricky, especially if you start needing a 'central' inverter, generator, external power + have to switch between them. Boats have them, but boats are expensive
Not sure what plug your TV will have for 12v - maybe like a cigarette lighter ?
In a car the negative battery terminal is 'earthed' to the car body and you run a cable from the battery positive terminal to anything that needs power. Then the device is connected to the car body nearby. This simplifies wiring.
It depends how neat you want it really. 12v power sockets everywhere is no problem, provided it's all fused and cabled correctly, but 240v gets a bit tricky, especially if you start needing a 'central' inverter, generator, external power + have to switch between them. Boats have them, but boats are expensive
Edited by john_p on Thursday 23 July 17:01
john_p said:
Yes, you can connect directly to the battery. Make sure you get the polarity (positive, negative) right.
Not sure what plug your TV will have for 12v - maybe like a cigarette lighter ?
In a car the negative battery terminal is 'earthed' to the car body and you run a cable from the battery positive terminal to anything that needs power. Then the device is connected to the car body nearby. This simplifies wiring.
It depends how neat you want it really. 12v power sockets everywhere is no problem, provided it's all fused and cabled correctly, but 240v gets a bit tricky, especially if you start needing a 'central' inverter, generator, external power + have to switch between them. Boats have them, but boats are expensive
Bugger, I was hoping to do 4 circuits from the batteries.Not sure what plug your TV will have for 12v - maybe like a cigarette lighter ?
In a car the negative battery terminal is 'earthed' to the car body and you run a cable from the battery positive terminal to anything that needs power. Then the device is connected to the car body nearby. This simplifies wiring.
It depends how neat you want it really. 12v power sockets everywhere is no problem, provided it's all fused and cabled correctly, but 240v gets a bit tricky, especially if you start needing a 'central' inverter, generator, external power + have to switch between them. Boats have them, but boats are expensive
Edited by john_p on Thursday 23 July 17:01
one for one set of lights, one for the other, one for the tv and stereo and one with a inverter on it for the 240v sockets, although I have seen some inverters with sockets on the inverter itself which might be option.
She wants hair drier and hair straighteners.
I want laptop charger, maybe mobile charger ( although we could use the ciggy lighter in the cab )
Maybe something else that I can;t think of right now. No fridges ( that will be on gas ), no microwaves ( they use loads of power ) no heaters ( again same reason ). I just want a socket so I have the option of using or charging something 240v in the van and not have to worry about it running out or finding a 240v hook up.
These things wouldn;t be used hardly at all, and only one at a time really, the 12v tv and dvd I would imagine would be used quite a lot though ( that why I want a 12v one rather than a 240v )
I want laptop charger, maybe mobile charger ( although we could use the ciggy lighter in the cab )
Maybe something else that I can;t think of right now. No fridges ( that will be on gas ), no microwaves ( they use loads of power ) no heaters ( again same reason ). I just want a socket so I have the option of using or charging something 240v in the van and not have to worry about it running out or finding a 240v hook up.
These things wouldn;t be used hardly at all, and only one at a time really, the 12v tv and dvd I would imagine would be used quite a lot though ( that why I want a 12v one rather than a 240v )
You might have more luck on a boating forum. Narrowboats specifically. They deal with this sort of stuff all the time and there's a ton of stuff if you google 'narrowboat electrics'. I don't think you'll need a genny to run that quantity of stuff unless you're planning on being parked up for weeks at a time.
Definitely consider an electrical hook up line as most European campsites have these available.
Definitely consider an electrical hook up line as most European campsites have these available.
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