Do I need permission to install extractor fan?

Do I need permission to install extractor fan?

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Sarah_W

Original Poster:

288 posts

187 months

Wednesday 17th June 2009
quotequote all
We've just bought a leasehold flat and would like to install both an extractor fan in the bathroom & kitchen and also a gas boiler (currently electric). As we'll be drilling through the walls, do we need permission from the freeholder and if so, is this usually granted without issue?

Thanks :-)

miniman

26,284 posts

269 months

Wednesday 17th June 2009
quotequote all
As far as permission from the leaseholder goes - it was like that when you found it.

Famous Graham

26,553 posts

232 months

Wednesday 17th June 2009
quotequote all
miniman said:
As far as permission from the leaseholder goes - it was like that when you found it.
Except the survey from a buyer when you come to sell it, won't match yours, and they'll flag it.

I had that problem with some double glazing the previous owner installed without the freeholder's consent. Put the purchase on hold for ages while we sorted it out.

ETA - I dont know whether they DO need permission, mind. Just saying that if they do, and you don't get it, it might cause problems down the line.

Edited by Famous Graham on Wednesday 17th June 21:57

twister

1,494 posts

243 months

Wednesday 17th June 2009
quotequote all
Check the leasehold documentation to see if it says anything about alterations. If it's anything like the one I had a few years ago, it'll probably say altering the exterior of the property without permission is a no-no, but internal mods (provided they don't affect the integrity of the building) are OK.

Sam_68

9,939 posts

252 months

Thursday 18th June 2009
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You should certainly check the leasehold document.

Leasehold agreements vary, though, so that's about all the accurate advice it's possible to give without seeing your paperwork.

As a general rule, however, most leasehold agreements these days are written so that you 'own' up to the plaster/plasterboard, but the structural wall belongs to the freeholder. As such, anything that punches a hole through the external wall would need permission.


netherfield

2,786 posts

191 months

Thursday 18th June 2009
quotequote all
And if the leaseholder has an agent they will want a not so small fee even if they say yes.6 years ago they wanted £150 just for an agreement to remove an old outside toilet.

Sarah_W

Original Poster:

288 posts

187 months

Thursday 18th June 2009
quotequote all
Hey thanks for your advice folks. I've checked the lease and it states I need to get permission from the lessor in order to maim or injure the building, so presumably putting in an extractor fan and gas flue comes under this.

It also states that I cannot lift any florboards to repair or renovate any pipes or cables. I need to install central heating and possibly a new ring main to the kitchen, so would I also need to get permission for this in writing and if so, am I better to ask for all permissions in teh same letter to reduce costs?

Sarah_W

Original Poster:

288 posts

187 months

Friday 10th July 2009
quotequote all
Heyfolks,

I've put in the Lease extract below:

Not to cut, main or injure any part of the structure without the permission of the lessor (such consent not to be unreasonably delayed or withheld), to make any alteration to the plan design
Nor to open up any floors walls ceilings for teh purposes of altering or renewing any pipes wires, ducts or conduits

I need to do the following, which I think falls under this:
Install central heating
Add to the existing wiring
Remove a stud wall

I'm surprised that I need to get so may permissions from the Lessor. Is this normally the case with a lease and indeed, do most people bother?

On programs like Under the Hammer, people sometimes turnaround renovated flats in a few weeks, so presumably, don't need to or don't bother to get such permissions.

GreenDog

2,261 posts

199 months

Friday 10th July 2009
quotequote all
Sarah_W said:
Heyfolks,

I've put in the Lease extract below:

Not to cut, main or injure any part of the structure without the permission of the lessor (such consent not to be unreasonably delayed or withheld), to make any alteration to the plan design
Nor to open up any floors walls ceilings for teh purposes of altering or renewing any pipes wires, ducts or conduits

I need to do the following, which I think falls under this:
Install central heating
Add to the existing wiring
Remove a stud wall

I'm surprised that I need to get so may permissions from the Lessor. Is this normally the case with a lease and indeed, do most people bother?

On programs like Under the Hammer, people sometimes turnaround renovated flats in a few weeks, so presumably, don't need to or don't bother to get such permissions.
Or they're freehold properties

HiRich

3,337 posts

269 months

Friday 10th July 2009
quotequote all
Yes it is normal on a leasehold property. And it is reasonable, as they own and are responsible for the bricks & mortar (and land) - they are responsible for insurance, and staying within any restrictions on use and appearance (listed building, planning permission, etc.). They have the right to refuse work, make you return to original condition, or break in to do the work and then make you pay for it. If you try to sell with unapproved work, they can prevent the sale.

I manage the lease on our building (me, plus four others) and we try to be very relaxed about it - several letters have been written approving plans after the work.

I would just wite to the Lessor detailing it as one "renovation project".
  • Sketch out (or mark up a plan) identifying the positions (boiler, radiators, fan, new positions for wiring outlets)
  • Identify the areas where permission is sought (hole for fan, outlet for boiler, temporary removal of floorboards)
  • Identify commitments you already know (replace floorboards, make good old holes in structure) as required by the lease.
  • Request approval, notice of any additional restrictions they need to apply, and whether they wish to approve the completed work.
Be specific and definite, and frame it as a proposal rather than a request. Don't mention money, and there's a fair chance they will just write back with approval.

Not watching such programmes, I would guess either the approavl has been sought, or the owner has built up a heap of trouble come sale time.

Sarah_W

Original Poster:

288 posts

187 months

Sunday 12th July 2009
quotequote all
HiRich said:
Yes it is normal on a leasehold property. And it is reasonable, as they own and are responsible for the bricks & mortar (and land) - they are responsible for insurance, and staying within any restrictions on use and appearance (listed building, planning permission, etc.). They have the right to refuse work, make you return to original condition, or break in to do the work and then make you pay for it. If you try to sell with unapproved work, they can prevent the sale.

I manage the lease on our building (me, plus four others) and we try to be very relaxed about it - several letters have been written approving plans after the work.

I would just wite to the Lessor detailing it as one "renovation project".
  • Sketch out (or mark up a plan) identifying the positions (boiler, radiators, fan, new positions for wiring outlets)
  • Identify the areas where permission is sought (hole for fan, outlet for boiler, temporary removal of floorboards)
  • Identify commitments you already know (replace floorboards, make good old holes in structure) as required by the lease.
  • Request approval, notice of any additional restrictions they need to apply, and whether they wish to approve the completed work.
Be specific and definite, and frame it as a proposal rather than a request. Don't mention money, and there's a fair chance they will just write back with approval.

Not watching such programmes, I would guess either the approavl has been sought, or the owner has built up a heap of trouble come sale time.
Thanks Rich - that'asa great post and really helpful. Just out of interest, if permission wasn't sought, how would the lessor become wise to such work being done during our time as lessees?

HiRich

3,337 posts

269 months

Monday 13th July 2009
quotequote all
The holes in the outside wall would be a clue. Other tenants might make a complaint. But the one significant case we had was at sale - the surveyor spotted a stud wall moved and raised it as a query (as the seller was a friend, I managed to "find" the letter of approval I had written a couple of years before I bought my place!).

As I have suggested, theo work you are doing is perfectly normal, and approval should be procedural (provided the work is done decently and made good).

PS As you are lifting the floorboards, take the opportunity to install nuclear grade insulation both on the CH pipes and in the ceiling space. This place has been recommended here before:
http://www.secondsandco.co.uk/