Contracting with a builder

[Arnold Cunningham]

We're just about to get a decent chunk of work done on our place. We've been speaking to a few builders and have some quotes etc in.

We've had lot of work done on the house before, usually just day rate + materials, but this is a bit different as it's proper building work including bracing and propping up a couple of ground floor walls, knocking the walls down and having steel beams put in instead. We've had all the architectural & structural drawings done, so I think everything is pretty well spec'd out.

But all the builders we've spoken to want to do weekly invoicing and without what I'd call a full contract for delivery. So they'll invoice us for the work against the specific milestones they've progressed that week based on the quotes they've given us.

Is this normal? The main things for us are that, for example, if the end of the house fell off because they'd not propped it properly, that we are adequately protected.

I don't want unnecessary paperwork, but also want to make sure that "just in case", we're covered, but not sure what they right balance is as this is a bigger job than usual.

Thank you.

[dhutch]

I opened the thread thinking it was going to be about you working for the builder as a conny!

[Arrivalist]

dhutch said:

I opened the thread thinking it was going to be about you working for the builder as a conny!

Me too.

To answer the Q - if it s a decent size project I d be using a standard JCT contract (minor works) and then outline the stages payments within.

Also - you may very well need to change your house insurance to cover the building work.

At end of the day it will depend on the scope of the work.

Edited by Arrivalist on Thursday 19th June 12:27

[Bezerk]

Are these builders recommended by your Architect with a proven track record?

That doesn't sound like a normal situation. There should be a contract with the payment schedule stated.
The project manager (often the Architect) will need to asses the progress, not the builder.

[Arnold Cunningham]

dhutch said:

I opened the thread thinking it was going to be about you working for the builder as a conny!

I did actually say to the Mrs last night that perhaps I should qualify as a sparky! But no, not at the moment.

[Lotobear]

Use a JCT householder form of contract - this can be used without needing to appoint a contract administrator.

It follows similar principles to the JCT MW form of contract but is simpler and intended for the sort of work the OP mentions.

Payment is usually monthly in arrears - this ensures you only pay for work actually executed.

[Arnold Cunningham]

Bezerk said:

Are these builders recommended by your Architect with a proven track record?

That doesn't sound like a normal situation. There should be a contract with the payment schedule stated.
The project manager (often the Architect) will need to asses the progress, not the builder.

One is, the other is one we know locally who is well reputed. The architect recommended JST, but his recommended builder said "we don't do those". Which confused us slightly.

[iphonedyou]

I run a PM / QS consultancy and for my own extension works I used a JCT Minor Works (with Contractor's Design) contract. Invoiced monthly in arrears.

Edited by iphonedyou on Thursday 19th June 12:56

[blueg33]

I would use a JCT minor works. Payments monthly in arrears based on progress of the job.

Also ensure that the contractor is fully insured including PI if they are doing any design work.

[Lotobear]

Just to reinforce the point that JCT MW is only for use where a CA has been appointed. Otherwise it needs be the Homeowner version.

[Lotobear]

blueg33 said:

Also ensure that the contractor is fully insured including PI if they are doing any design work.

In which case it needs to be JCT MW, with Contractor's Design supplement, but, again, only if a CA is appointed.

[Tom8]

An invoice won't protect you or be any use if anything goes wrong now or in the future. As others say, the JCT is designed to protect all parties and includes stage payments you can agree.

[blueg33]

Lotobear said:

blueg33 said:

Also ensure that the contractor is fully insured including PI if they are doing any design work.

In which case it needs to be JCT MW, with Contractor's Design supplement, but, again, only if a CA is appointed.

IMO a contract administrator would probably save the Op some grief

[eliot]

I had an entire house built, jct contract i think - total price was 160k - paid in equal weekly instalments - only three milestones, out of the ground, wall plate and weathertight - i was a bit wary, but they only needed the first payment as a deposit to get started and didn't demand any other money.

No issues, house was weathertight in 12 weeks.

[Sheepshanks]

Arnold Cunningham said:

But all the builders we've spoken to want to do weekly invoicing and without what I'd call a full contract for delivery. So they'll invoice us for the work against the specific milestones they've progressed that week based on the quotes they've given us.

Is this normal? The main things for us are that, for example, if the end of the house fell off because they'd not propped it properly, that we are adequately protected.

That s all we did, on £200K of work. Invoiced every two weeks. I backed off the payments towards the end as they were about a month behind - nothing major, just that finishing got a lot more fiddly than expected and I didn t want to get a position where payments got ahead of the work. They were OK with that.

I did check they had liability insurance. One thing that didn t occur to me at the time is that basically your normal house insurance has very reduced cover while work is going on.

Builder said he could do a JCT contract if we wanted to but was dismissive and said there would be an extra cost.

Didn t have any contact with the architect until he asked to see it when all done. He d recommend the builders, but we knew of them anyway and were glad to get them in the timescale we wanted.

[Jeremy-75qq8]

I have just built a very very large house with no contract.

I was far more creditworthy than the builder to I had more to loose than gain in the sueing stakes.

Consider if they have a hope in hell of paying before signing anything. The reality is pay builders they work. Don't pay they don't. It is not a complex business.

[blueg33]

eliot said:

I had an entire house built, jct contract i think - total price was 160k - paid in equal weekly instalments - only three milestones, out of the ground, wall plate and weathertight - i was a bit wary, but they only needed the first payment as a deposit to get started and didn't demand any other money.

No issues, house was weathertight in 12 weeks.

I can get a house weathertight in 3 days from completed foundations. 8 weeks for a block of 12 apartments over 3 floors

[eliot]

blueg33 said:

I can get a house weathertight in 3 days from completed foundations. 8 weeks for a block of 12 apartments over 3 floors

Ok - didn’t realise we were comparing the size of our manhoods (and i know who you are and normally have a lot of respect for you) - But that was knocking an old house down, site clearance, concrete foundations into flooded land, brick and block construction, all windows, interior on first fix electrical and water, all walls dot and dabbbed and finished ready for paint and just under 3000 sq-ft - for £160k (in 2012 admittedly).
But didn’t mention that as it adds nothing to the o/p’s question.


(got the timelapse if you don’t believe me)

[Sheepshanks]

eliot said:

I had an entire house built, jct contract i think - total price was 160k - paid in equal weekly instalments - only three milestones, out of the ground, wall plate and weathertight - i was a bit wary, but they only needed the first payment as a deposit to get started and didn't demand any other money.

No issues, house was weathertight in 12 weeks.

That's a chunky amount upfront. Didn't pay anything on ours until the first stage payment, although I suppose by then they'd only dug some trenches and poured a bit of concrete.

Thinking about it, the schedule for the first few weeks did seem remarkably relaxed - maybe that was done on purpose to build up a bit of a float.

[Arnold Cunningham]

Anyway, @Eliiot, your (and your late fathers) website were invaluable to me over the years, especially when I was teaching myself how to build a megasquirt on a rover v8 for the first time.

An interesting mix of yay/nay, but thanks all for your input. Appreciate it.

Edited by Arnold Cunningham on Thursday 19th June 22:29