New house purchase - seller splitting title, help needed!
Discussion
After some thoughts from the collective please, in relation to our current house purchase.
A quick summary for context: We’ve been in rented past 2 1/2 yrs after selling our previous house (village) to ensure catchment for local Boys school (town location) - he’s now in and were looking for a detached house with a decent plot in anther village location, North Herts.
We are fortunate enough to be cash buyers, no finance reqd and in a rolling rental contract, so decent position.
Have viewed at least 10 properties and finally found something that ticked most boxes for our budget. Bit older, needs more work, more land than was looking for but it could be a great family home in a good location for us.
The house sits on a 1.5 acre plot, and is surrounded on 3 sides by approx 4 acres of paddock/ grazing land.
It’s this land that the elderly owner is splitting out from the sale via a new title. The house and surrounding land sits in a conservation area. We’ve just had a full structural survey completed as we would be looking to undertake some major internal remodelling works, so have committed a few £k to the purchase so far with this and instruction of our solicitors/ initial searches etc.
Our previous house also backed onto fields, before planning was approved to build 160+ houses, (not a conservation area), so we sold up quickly and moved for 2ndary catchment.
Seller has stated he wants to give the land to his grandchildren. We’ve asked as we have received teh draft TP1, whether he would be willing to have a covenant added to the title restricting any new buildings, as we’ve been down thsi road before. EA has advised he wont accept this.
To me this is a red flag, but we are keen to purchase the house if we can find something kind of acceptable agreement/ compromise or otherwise. On the flip side, its (for us), an awful lot of money to gamble on not being certain that the current idyllic vista of open fields could be replaced with new build houses at some point in the future.
We’ve asked our solicitor for guidance, but they just seem to be pushing us back to the EA, who has advised we write a letter to the seller explains our previous experience and concerns.
My questions are 1) How likely would it really be for a developer to obtain planning for multiple houses in a conservation area? (No joy with the local planning dept to date - bar a “please allow 28 days for a reply” email), and
2) Is anyone aware of any other means of protecting ourselves that the seller may be open to (Overage clause etc), noting that we don’t believe an Option Agreement giving 1st refusal on the land will protect us if a developer does show an interest..
Apologies for the essay, but trying to cover everything relevant off.
Any thoughts or assistance greatly received!
JC
A quick summary for context: We’ve been in rented past 2 1/2 yrs after selling our previous house (village) to ensure catchment for local Boys school (town location) - he’s now in and were looking for a detached house with a decent plot in anther village location, North Herts.
We are fortunate enough to be cash buyers, no finance reqd and in a rolling rental contract, so decent position.
Have viewed at least 10 properties and finally found something that ticked most boxes for our budget. Bit older, needs more work, more land than was looking for but it could be a great family home in a good location for us.
The house sits on a 1.5 acre plot, and is surrounded on 3 sides by approx 4 acres of paddock/ grazing land.
It’s this land that the elderly owner is splitting out from the sale via a new title. The house and surrounding land sits in a conservation area. We’ve just had a full structural survey completed as we would be looking to undertake some major internal remodelling works, so have committed a few £k to the purchase so far with this and instruction of our solicitors/ initial searches etc.
Our previous house also backed onto fields, before planning was approved to build 160+ houses, (not a conservation area), so we sold up quickly and moved for 2ndary catchment.
Seller has stated he wants to give the land to his grandchildren. We’ve asked as we have received teh draft TP1, whether he would be willing to have a covenant added to the title restricting any new buildings, as we’ve been down thsi road before. EA has advised he wont accept this.
To me this is a red flag, but we are keen to purchase the house if we can find something kind of acceptable agreement/ compromise or otherwise. On the flip side, its (for us), an awful lot of money to gamble on not being certain that the current idyllic vista of open fields could be replaced with new build houses at some point in the future.
We’ve asked our solicitor for guidance, but they just seem to be pushing us back to the EA, who has advised we write a letter to the seller explains our previous experience and concerns.
My questions are 1) How likely would it really be for a developer to obtain planning for multiple houses in a conservation area? (No joy with the local planning dept to date - bar a “please allow 28 days for a reply” email), and
2) Is anyone aware of any other means of protecting ourselves that the seller may be open to (Overage clause etc), noting that we don’t believe an Option Agreement giving 1st refusal on the land will protect us if a developer does show an interest..
Apologies for the essay, but trying to cover everything relevant off.
Any thoughts or assistance greatly received!
JC
The seller wants to retain it because it has potential value.
The uplift from agri to resi is near 40x
It’s not worth selling for £40,000 at agri rates.
Hope value is impossible to determine. A planning regs change tomorrow could make it worth £££.
An overage could work but if you give them the full uplift you have no motivation to sell.
So you retain half, but that means they’ll want hope value today (say £200,000 for the plot vs £40,000 agri value) for a 50pc overage, to incentivise you to sell if PP is gained.
Then you’re stuck because if/when it gets PP you uplift the land but devalue your own home.
If it never gets PP you’ve spent £££ for a few fields. Fine if you can afford it.
Personally I’d avoid if you want certainty, because buying it from this seller sounds like it’ll come at a premium.
The fact they don’t want covenant added tells you exactly what they expect and want from it, and will no doubt be promoting for over the years.
The uplift from agri to resi is near 40x
It’s not worth selling for £40,000 at agri rates.
Hope value is impossible to determine. A planning regs change tomorrow could make it worth £££.
An overage could work but if you give them the full uplift you have no motivation to sell.
So you retain half, but that means they’ll want hope value today (say £200,000 for the plot vs £40,000 agri value) for a 50pc overage, to incentivise you to sell if PP is gained.
Then you’re stuck because if/when it gets PP you uplift the land but devalue your own home.
If it never gets PP you’ve spent £££ for a few fields. Fine if you can afford it.
Personally I’d avoid if you want certainty, because buying it from this seller sounds like it’ll come at a premium.
The fact they don’t want covenant added tells you exactly what they expect and want from it, and will no doubt be promoting for over the years.
I think you have answered your own questions really. Your not buying the extra land and the vendor doesn’t want to limit his future options. Why should he? Therefore you need to plan on the worst possible outcome which presumably is that some form of development is approved on the adjacent land at some point in the future.
You need to decide if this is something you could live with and are there any mitigating strategies you could adopt in the meantime. Planting trees and or hedges on your land perhaps? Your plot is 1.5 acres as I understand it? Which is a very good size plot, could you shuffle any of the current boundaries about through give and take with the vendor to optimize your plot and your opportunities to keep your privacy, views etc in the case of an adjacent development?
The only sure fire way you have of future protection is to buy it all sadly. Have you tried that?
You need to decide if this is something you could live with and are there any mitigating strategies you could adopt in the meantime. Planting trees and or hedges on your land perhaps? Your plot is 1.5 acres as I understand it? Which is a very good size plot, could you shuffle any of the current boundaries about through give and take with the vendor to optimize your plot and your opportunities to keep your privacy, views etc in the case of an adjacent development?
The only sure fire way you have of future protection is to buy it all sadly. Have you tried that?
If the pennies won't stretch to buying it to prevent development then buy it and develop it with houses that you'd be happy living next to, not a guarantee against the risk someone might buy and immediately add extensions and fit grey windows, a hot tub and astroturf, but it would reduce the likelihood. 
bigmowley said:
PS it will really cheer you up if the grandchildren are really into motorcross and the like. Lovely little track for them right there.
Electric MX ain't so bad 
I'm with others, there's no way they want to just keep it paddocks if there's chance to make bank on it.
You haven't got any leverage in this, a more naive buyer will be along soon enough.
Odd the solicitor pushes you back to EA.
Agent has no legal position on what they represent or tell you due to disclaimers.
I have had a similar house purchase. I woke up on the first full day after moving in and knew in my heart I had made the wrong decision. We had moved out again with 14 months and that had lockdowns in it as well.
Bear in mind it's harder to sell with permissions around you .
Agent has no legal position on what they represent or tell you due to disclaimers.
I have had a similar house purchase. I woke up on the first full day after moving in and knew in my heart I had made the wrong decision. We had moved out again with 14 months and that had lockdowns in it as well.
Bear in mind it's harder to sell with permissions around you .
Edited by cliffords on Tuesday 17th June 22:34
cliffords said:
Odd the solicitor pushes you back to EA.
I don't think the solicitor can do any more than help you buy what the seller is selling. If the seller is selling the house without some of the land then definitely any questions about what's being sold are questions for the seller's agent, not the solicitors/conveyancers.Thanks all for the replies so far.
As some of you have stated, the seller of course has every right to do as he wishes with his land to maximise his return, and truth be told if planning were to be granted for a handful of houses along the infill line, which is at the bottom of the garden that wouldn’t be an issue, its more if planning were granted for multiple houses that essentially encompassed the property that I have an issue with.
There is an existing covenant already on the entire plot of land that prohibits the building of any religious buildings or services, so not sure if that would have any bearing on any future planning applications for housing, I suspect not.
The 1.5 acre plot is actually split pretty much 50/50 house in centre of half the plot with the other half as front garden - and in time we would ideally want to go for planning for 1 off smaller barn style house for our own occupation, and also split “our” title, so I guess I can’t be too hypocritical - just don’t want to be living adjacent to a new build estate (again!)
I haven’t enquired about buying the land to date, as tbh its not something we had considered - but I may well ask the question, as will be interesting to see what the response to that approach is, and if positive what the number would be.
Looks like a fair bit of mulling and head scratching over the next few days. Perhaps the results of the survey will have a bearing on things when it lands..
As some of you have stated, the seller of course has every right to do as he wishes with his land to maximise his return, and truth be told if planning were to be granted for a handful of houses along the infill line, which is at the bottom of the garden that wouldn’t be an issue, its more if planning were granted for multiple houses that essentially encompassed the property that I have an issue with.
There is an existing covenant already on the entire plot of land that prohibits the building of any religious buildings or services, so not sure if that would have any bearing on any future planning applications for housing, I suspect not.
The 1.5 acre plot is actually split pretty much 50/50 house in centre of half the plot with the other half as front garden - and in time we would ideally want to go for planning for 1 off smaller barn style house for our own occupation, and also split “our” title, so I guess I can’t be too hypocritical - just don’t want to be living adjacent to a new build estate (again!)
I haven’t enquired about buying the land to date, as tbh its not something we had considered - but I may well ask the question, as will be interesting to see what the response to that approach is, and if positive what the number would be.
Looks like a fair bit of mulling and head scratching over the next few days. Perhaps the results of the survey will have a bearing on things when it lands..
cliffords said:
Odd the solicitor pushes you back to EA.
Agent has no legal position on what they represent or tell you due to disclaimers.
I have had a similar house purchase. I woke up on the first full day after moving in and knew in my heart I had made the wrong decision. We had moved out again with 14 months and that had lockdowns in it as well.
Bear in mind it's harder to sell with permissions around you .
It’s not legal point. It’s a commercial deal. Solicitor only documents the deal the parties have agreed. Agent has no legal position on what they represent or tell you due to disclaimers.
I have had a similar house purchase. I woke up on the first full day after moving in and knew in my heart I had made the wrong decision. We had moved out again with 14 months and that had lockdowns in it as well.
Bear in mind it's harder to sell with permissions around you .
Edited by cliffords on Tuesday 17th June 22:34
It’s correct to go through the agents.
Justhe-1 said:
I haven t enquired about buying the land to date, as tbh its not something we had considered - but I may well ask the question, as will be interesting to see what the response to that approach is, and if positive what the number would be.
Definitely consider it. It’s the only way to properly control it. The difficulty you have with development is that planning policy is fluid.What is pretty much guaranteed is that if you’re worried about the prospect of development then other prospective purchasers will be too.
The owner retaining the land is really him wanting the option for his family, which is understandable, but what you may not know is how much the family actually wants that. Very few people will actually self-build, so any interest the beneficiaries have is more likely to be based on the value they think they can extract from a self-builder or developer (of one of multiple units).
The way to look at it/discuss with the agent, is that although the vendor is probably looking at maximising value over the longer term, the uncertainty around what might happen adjacent to the property impairs the value of the current house. As soon as you get into discussions in isolation about the land being worth £x, the natural response would be to claim it’s worth more but if they understand that without it the main house is worth less then then might be more willing to see the benefit of selling.
Obviously the above all caveated by how desirable the place is and how much competition.
I agree with all the above.
The issue is that the current owner can sell 20% of the current land tor 90% of the current value.
Buying the rest of the land would secure the type of property the OP wants and be a good investment but the seller has little incentive to let it go unless the price is significantly over any agricultural rate.
The issue is that the current owner can sell 20% of the current land tor 90% of the current value.
Buying the rest of the land would secure the type of property the OP wants and be a good investment but the seller has little incentive to let it go unless the price is significantly over any agricultural rate.
Is the area marked for development in the local plan?
https://www.north-herts.gov.uk/north-herts-local-p... (or could it be, after 2031?)
Is it accessible? On a floodplain? In a village or open countryside?
I guess it s always possible that someone will build a one off/ Grand Designs type property one day
Views aside, some people might prefer houses to sheep bleating all night
https://www.north-herts.gov.uk/north-herts-local-p... (or could it be, after 2031?)
Is it accessible? On a floodplain? In a village or open countryside?
I guess it s always possible that someone will build a one off/ Grand Designs type property one day
Views aside, some people might prefer houses to sheep bleating all night
LooneyTunes said:
Justhe-1 said:
I haven t enquired about buying the land to date, as tbh its not something we had considered - but I may well ask the question, as will be interesting to see what the response to that approach is, and if positive what the number would be.
Definitely consider it. It s the only way to properly control it. The difficulty you have with development is that planning policy is fluid.What is pretty much guaranteed is that if you re worried about the prospect of development then other prospective purchasers will be too.
The owner retaining the land is really him wanting the option for his family, which is understandable, but what you may not know is how much the family actually wants that. Very few people will actually self-build, so any interest the beneficiaries have is more likely to be based on the value they think they can extract from a self-builder or developer (of one of multiple units).
The way to look at it/discuss with the agent, is that although the vendor is probably looking at maximising value over the longer term, the uncertainty around what might happen adjacent to the property impairs the value of the current house. As soon as you get into discussions in isolation about the land being worth £x, the natural response would be to claim it s worth more but if they understand that without it the main house is worth less then then might be more willing to see the benefit of selling.
Obviously the above all caveated by how desirable the place is and how much competition.
And if it’s just the vendors own hope, it can still have a high price.
I see random fields around here go at 10x agri value AND a 50pc overage.
4.5ac would be £450,000 under that paradigm.
When land is getting privately proved by developers for options agreements etc, no agent would even try formally value the hope, because it’s just that, hope.
You’d put it to auction. But that won’t work here.
I’d be guessing they’ll want at least £450,000 for the land.
Fine if that feels in budget and you’re happy paying it.
blueg33 said:
Does the retained land have access? Does that access cross third party land or will it require third party land to form an entrance and visibility splays?
Good point.But you’d never know that they may also own other local land, unless you start digging around.
The only reason we know this extra land is owned by the vendor is because it shares a title.
Had the vendor split title previously you’d not even know they owned this extra land.
So certainly be careful making an assessment of likelihood of development based on apparent access etc.
Mr Whippy said:
blueg33 said:
Does the retained land have access? Does that access cross third party land or will it require third party land to form an entrance and visibility splays?
Good point.But you d never know that they may also own other local land, unless you start digging around.
The only reason we know this extra land is owned by the vendor is because it shares a title.
Had the vendor split title previously you d not even know they owned this extra land.
So certainly be careful making an assessment of likelihood of development based on apparent access etc.
The liklihood is that this is purely down to a negotiation, what the seller will accept and what the buyer will accept. Without those there is no deal.
I would push back very hard on the covenant on the title, if that is rebuked seek an overage, if that goes nowhere seek an option over the land (but you would probably have to find market value to exercise the option, and it would be time limited, say 10 years).
If none of those are acceptable to the vendor and to the buyer, then the buyer either has to accept it or walk away.
Gassing Station | Homes, Gardens and DIY | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff