How to find the freeholder

[jned2]

I'm interested in buying a house locally, it's currently got 940 years left on the lease but no one seems to know who owns the freehold. The current owners, who have lived there 10 years, don't know and don't pay an annual ground rent to anyone, there is no information on the deeds and I've spoken with Land Registry and drawn a blank. Is the next step a solicitor who specialises with such issues?

[DanL]

The lease should state who owns the freehold, I would have thought…

[OutInTheShed]

My Nephew's first house was a 1930's terraced.
Leasehold with a ground rent of a few shillings which nobody was collecting.
There was an intermediate lease which covered the whole terrace AIUI.
The lease on the house was from some company which had been dissolved just after the war.
Freehold of about 1/4 of the town seemed to belong to some Lord or other.

Someone organised a few dozen houses to acquire the freeholds , it cost each of them about £250 I think, mostly in fees.
Probably saved that in cheaper conveyancing on sale?

One place I looked at years ago, the seller showed me a little bag kept in the front hall.
'These are the peppercorns, in case the landlord turns up'.

[jned2]

Thanks for the replies.

Nothing on the lease I'm afraid.

"Out in the shed", Any idea how you "acquired" the freehold?

[blueg33]

Op. have you tried the land registry? It may not show on the title, so you will need to apply to see the documents that go to the root of the title. Its probably a job for a solicitor.

[jned2]

Yes I've tried Land Registry and no luck. Think you could be right and next stop is a solicitor. Many thanks.

[richhead]

I had similar a decade or so ago, spoke to a solicitor who dealt with it, i think the freehold title was applied for in my name cost me a few hundred.
Sold the house a few years later with no problem.

[jned2]

Thanks "richhead", I think that is going to be the best way forward having drawn a blank elsewhere.

[Panamax]

jned2 said:

Yes I've tried Land Registry and no luck.

How did you "try" the Land Registry? Online map search?

Why do yo want to find the freeholder? After all, there are 940 years left run...

[jned2]

I had a lengthy telephone conversation with Land Registry but they couldn't find who owns the freehold. I take your point about the length of the lease but would like to purchase the freehold more for my own peace of mind.

[av185]

Worth checking with any next door neighbours who may may well pay their ground rent to the same person as the house you are interested in especially if the house is a terrace.

[Lefty]

I have nothing to add but much to learn. I live in Scotland where leasehold isn’t a thing.

Am I right in saying leasehold means you can buy the house but not the land it’s on? WTF happens if the person who owns the land doesn’t renew the lease? Can they boot you off?

[av185]

You can buy the Freehold but there is little point if its an old lease original 999 year term at a nominal annual ground rent other than to save costs on notice fees etc.

Sub 99 year term leases a different matter of course as these are deemed wasting assets after only a few years so have capital value implications.

[OutInTheShed]

jned2 said:

Thanks for the replies.

Nothing on the lease I'm afraid.

"Out in the shed", Any idea how you "acquired" the freehold?

I'm not sure of the details.

I'm not even clear whether it all started because someone wanted to buy their freehold, or because the 'landlord' wanted them off his books.

[Acorn1]

Bear in mind that if the Freeholder cannot be traced, you will only be granted a defective title, which doesn't guarantee ownership.

So can cause issues when selling.

Not sure what the time limit is though or if there is one?

[jned2]

Thanks again for all the replies. Defective title is something I'd never heard of and doesn't sound like a good move. Beginning to think a 940 year lease may be the best or easiest move.

[Panamax]

av185 said:

.... other than to save costs on notice fees etc.

Who on earth is he going to give notices to or pay fees to if he doesn't know the freeholder?

But leaving that aside, yes, 940 year leasehold sounds absolutely fine. No point spending a lot of time and energy trying to find the freeholder.

[Elysium]

jned2 said:

I'm interested in buying a house locally, it's currently got 940 years left on the lease but no one seems to know who owns the freehold. The current owners, who have lived there 10 years, don't know and don't pay an annual ground rent to anyone, there is no information on the deeds and I've spoken with Land Registry and drawn a blank. Is the next step a solicitor who specialises with such issues?

The lease will name the freeholder or landlord. So the statement that “no one seems to know” makes no sense. However, they may no longer exist. Perhaps because it is a company that is no longer trading or an individual who has died.

This is a “long leasehold” that probably started off at 999 years. If so you are 59 years in which could explain why the landlord can’t be found. These sort of arrangements are sometimes called “virtual freeholds”, because the owners rights are almost as good as those of a freeholder. But there will be a reason why the freehold was created. Perhaps because the landlord wanted to retain some rights, for example if there is a shared access.

You need to talk to a solicitor to understand your options and the risks.

[Mars]

Isn't there something that allows for you to buy the freehold? I'm sure I once read/heard that after a certain time in a house with a leasehold, you could apply to buy the freeholding and as long as your offer was reasonable, it couldn't be denied. False memory?

[av185]

Panamax said:

Who on earth is he going to give notices to or pay fees to if he doesn't know the freeholder?

My point was on the basis the Freeholder is identified.