Downgrading an EPC
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Discussion

DavePanda

Original Poster:

6,741 posts

250 months

Tuesday 4th February
quotequote all
Is it possible to downgrade an EPC?

We bought an Ex-USAF house at the end of last year, i was surprised to see the EPC was a C, i looked it up and it states it has double glazing (which it does) loft insulation and cavity wall insulation.

The loft insulation is fine its around 200mm. We've found out that it does not have cavity wall insulation, the cavities were never filled on the houses and the double glazing is close to 40 years old, it is very inefficient and is obviously well beyond its life span.

We factored in the cost of replacing the doors and windows but with the current EPC rating we're not eligible for any government grants towards the cost of insulating so wondered if we could downgrade now we have better information

GasEngineer

1,502 posts

78 months

Tuesday 4th February
quotequote all
DavePanda said:
Is it possible to downgrade an EPC?

We bought an Ex-USAF house at the end of last year, i was surprised to see the EPC was a C, i looked it up and it states it has double glazing (which it does) loft insulation and cavity wall insulation.

The loft insulation is fine its around 200mm. We've found out that it does not have cavity wall insulation, the cavities were never filled on the houses and the double glazing is close to 40 years old, it is very inefficient and is obviously well beyond its life span.

We factored in the cost of replacing the doors and windows but with the current EPC rating we're not eligible for any government grants towards the cost of insulating so wondered if we could downgrade now we have better information
If the surveyor who got the EPC wrong won't correct it - could you just get another EPC done? I think they cost about £70.

PhilboSE

5,296 posts

242 months

Tuesday 4th February
quotequote all
I think you have to be lower than a D (which is realistically as low as you would go, based on what you’ve said) AND be on limited income to qualify for the grants.

Worth checking before doing anything about the EPC, as it’s a fast moving landscape.

DavePanda

Original Poster:

6,741 posts

250 months

Tuesday 4th February
quotequote all
PhilboSE said:
I think you have to be lower than a D (which is realistically as low as you would go, based on what you’ve said) AND be on limited income to qualify for the grants.

Worth checking before doing anything about the EPC, as it’s a fast moving landscape.
Yes, D or below makes you eligible, don't need to be on limited income but certain benefits can qualify for further funding, thankfully Child benefit counts for that.



popeyewhite

23,007 posts

136 months

Tuesday 4th February
quotequote all
GasEngineer said:
If the surveyor who got the EPC wrong won't correct it - could you just get another EPC done? I think they cost about £70.
Recent EPC cost me £100. Now I'm wondering if I paid too much!

FlossyThePig

4,133 posts

259 months

Wednesday 5th February
quotequote all
popeyewhite said:
GasEngineer said:
If the surveyor who got the EPC wrong won't correct it - could you just get another EPC done? I think they cost about £70.
Recent EPC cost me £100. Now I'm wondering if I paid too much!
Late last year mine cost £102.

untakenname

5,142 posts

208 months

Wednesday 5th February
quotequote all
Out of interest what government grants are available to those on D or above?

Silvanus

6,897 posts

39 months

Wednesday 5th February
quotequote all
popeyewhite said:
GasEngineer said:
If the surveyor who got the EPC wrong won't correct it - could you just get another EPC done? I think they cost about £70.
Recent EPC cost me £100. Now I'm wondering if I paid too much!
A big issue with EPC's is that in most cases it isn't a properly trained surveyor (Building Surveyor) that carries them out, its a box ticking exercise with no real in-depth analysis of how a building is constructed or how they perform. They would be a lot more expensive but more useful if done properly.

Wings

5,890 posts

231 months

Wednesday 5th February
quotequote all
Silvanus said:
A big issue with EPC's is that in most cases it isn't a properly trained surveyor (Building Surveyor) that carries them out, its a box ticking exercise with no real in-depth analysis of how a building is constructed or how they perform. They would be a lot more expensive but more useful if done properly.
^^^^absolutely agree, totally a present crude way of producing an energy performance certificate. The person producing an EPC, simply accepts the answers to questions offered by property owner, with no visible property checks. With properties EPC's listed online, quite easy for the surveyor to just mirror ratings of a property to that of other nearby similar properties



ShredderXLE

705 posts

175 months

Wednesday 5th February
quotequote all
untakenname said:
Out of interest what government grants are available to those on D or above?
I'd be keen to know this too - my house is an EPC D and needs new windows and doors etc

PurpleFox

478 posts

101 months

Wednesday 5th February
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Wings said:
^^^^absolutely agree, totally a present crude way of producing an energy performance certificate. The person producing an EPC, simply accepts the answers to questions offered by property owner, with no visible property checks. With properties EPC's listed online, quite easy for the surveyor to just mirror ratings of a property to that of other nearby similar properties
Sorry, that’s BS. The EPC assessor should not be taking the property owners word for things, they have to have evidence and for most elements, photographic evidence as well as floor plans showing how the sizes have been worked out as well as the heat loss etc.

The EPC assessor should be subject to audits through whoever they are accredited with and using to lodge the certificates. If they haven’t got evidence then they will have to resubmit the EPC.





PhilboSE

5,296 posts

242 months

Wednesday 5th February
quotequote all
PurpleFox said:
Sorry, that’s BS. The EPC assessor should not be taking the property owners word for things, they have to have evidence and for most elements, photographic evidence as well as floor plans showing how the sizes have been worked out as well as the heat loss etc.

The EPC assessor should be subject to audits through whoever they are accredited with and using to lodge the certificates. If they haven’t got evidence then they will have to resubmit the EPC.
This is my experience too. I had a loft conversion done before EPCs were a thing and didn’t have architects plans or photographic evidence of the 150mm PIR we put in the ceiling. Consequently the EPC assessor gave us no credit for it despite me dropping ceiling downlights and showing him exposed PIR where it was apparent.

Consequently the #1 recommendation on the EPC to improve it was to install loft insulation…I told the buyers under no circumstances whatsoever to even think about it.

2Btoo

3,668 posts

219 months

Wednesday 5th February
quotequote all
FlossyThePig said:
popeyewhite said:
GasEngineer said:
If the surveyor who got the EPC wrong won't correct it - could you just get another EPC done? I think they cost about £70.
Recent EPC cost me £100. Now I'm wondering if I paid too much!
Late last year mine cost £102.
I had an assessor who charged £40 each in London 4 years ago. I was running a lettings agency so bought a few a year but they weren't expensive.

I insisted that he bill me £60 for each one as they took quite a lot of work. Sometimes you can pay too little for something.

Cupid-stunt

3,097 posts

72 months

Thursday 6th February
quotequote all
I used OVO
They had an offer to do a Home Assessment for £15.

Looks like it is £25 now... and you have to be a customer of theirs.

Maybe see if your energy supplier has a similar offer?

jmn

979 posts

296 months

Thursday 6th February
quotequote all
Presumably the Government will announce how the Home Energy Model, which will replace the standard assessment procedure for EPCs, will work shortly. I believe that the consultation period is now over.

From what I have read HEM will favour electric heating so this might in itself downgrade existing EPCs.

I believe that initially HEM will only apply to new builds but will eventually be extended to all properties.


PhilboSE

5,296 posts

242 months

Thursday 6th February
quotequote all
jmn said:
From what I have read HEM will favour electric heating so this might in itself downgrade existing EPCs.
I keep reading this but it’s a bit bewildering. The purpose of an EPC was to give you an idea of the energy efficiency of the building - which translates to a cost of heating.

With electric heat units costing x4.7 as much as a gas heat unit, this will now be different (unless you have the worlds most efficient heat pump system).

So a “better” rated property could actually be more expensive to heat now using electricity compared with the same properly heated by gas with a worse rating.

So it’s more of an “eco” rating on the assumption we wint generate electricity by burning fossil fuels.

I renovated a flat last year and replaced 1970s storage heaters with gas - because you can’t install heat pumps in flats.

DavePanda

Original Poster:

6,741 posts

250 months

Friday 7th February
quotequote all
Silvanus said:
A big issue with EPC's is that in most cases it isn't a properly trained surveyor (Building Surveyor) that carries them out, its a box ticking exercise with no real in-depth analysis of how a building is constructed or how they perform. They would be a lot more expensive but more useful if done properly.
Makes sense as one of the local guys who does them is the local locksmith

DavePanda

Original Poster:

6,741 posts

250 months

Friday 7th February
quotequote all
ShredderXLE said:
I'd be keen to know this too - my house is an EPC D and needs new windows and doors etc
Nothing specific for windows etc but some local authorities are offering home upgrade grants. You can get grants towards insulation and boiler upgrades

Chrisgr31

14,064 posts

271 months

Friday 7th February
quotequote all
As a matter of interest how long does everyone think it should take to do an EPC?

If you are going to measure the property, measure all the windows, inspect the cavity, check the loft insulation etc how long will that take. Then you have to enter all the information in the software and generate the report.

Don’t forget travel time to the property.

If doing all that do we really expect a good job for £100? Which presumably includes VAT!

pghstochaj

2,884 posts

135 months

Friday 7th February
quotequote all
PhilboSE said:
jmn said:
From what I have read HEM will favour electric heating so this might in itself downgrade existing EPCs.
I keep reading this but it’s a bit bewildering. The purpose of an EPC was to give you an idea of the energy efficiency of the building - which translates to a cost of heating.

With electric heat units costing x4.7 as much as a gas heat unit, this will now be different (unless you have the worlds most efficient heat pump system).

So a “better” rated property could actually be more expensive to heat now using electricity compared with the same properly heated by gas with a worse rating.

So it’s more of an “eco” rating on the assumption we wint generate electricity by burning fossil fuels.

I renovated a flat last year and replaced 1970s storage heaters with gas - because you can’t install heat pumps in flats.
Except efficiency and cost of heating are two different things, not necessarily correlated. For example, if you burn gas at home you get 85% efficiency (kWh or gas to kWh of heating of the house), if you burn the gas in a gas CCGT and then use in a heat pump, you would be more like 150-200%+ efficiency. However, the cost would be about the same. Any changes will consider what type of electrical heater it is, resistive or heat pump.