Buying house with extension.
Discussion
If buying a house with an extension how can you definitively find out whether or not PP was required, If the vendor says it was done under permitted development, other than check out the PD rules yourself what else can you do.
PP was definitely not applied for. I've looked at PD rules and at first glance it seems PD may have been OK but without getting out a tape measure I can't be sure. And to be honest I'm not sure I'm qualified to give a definitive answer.
It is simply the case that the buyer has to interpret the PD rules to their own satisfaction ? Or is there a definitive answer available?
The L2 RFICS survey has not been of much use. Just says to get our solicitor to ask the question of the vendor - who will of course say it satisfied PD conditions.
PP was definitely not applied for. I've looked at PD rules and at first glance it seems PD may have been OK but without getting out a tape measure I can't be sure. And to be honest I'm not sure I'm qualified to give a definitive answer.
It is simply the case that the buyer has to interpret the PD rules to their own satisfaction ? Or is there a definitive answer available?
The L2 RFICS survey has not been of much use. Just says to get our solicitor to ask the question of the vendor - who will of course say it satisfied PD conditions.
Ask the vendor to buy indemnity insurance. My parents didn't have their extension signed off as the local authority wanted a locking door between the new and old parts which my folks didn't want. The insurance we bought was about £200 and the buyers' lawyer was fine with it. Normal stuff.
Edited by DickyC on Sunday 12th January 20:55
Also, how old is the extension?
Our house had a flat roof extension that fell under PD but no completion certificate (or it was in a paper file at a council somewhere and no-one wanted to find it). The extension was built in 1991, had not failed or fell down or dissolved so just accepted it would be fine.
If it was built fairly recently (within last 15-20 years) I’d want a certificate but if it was done in the 80s or 90s I wouldn’t worry about it. Even if it was signed off it wouldn’t meet todays regs anyway.
Our house had a flat roof extension that fell under PD but no completion certificate (or it was in a paper file at a council somewhere and no-one wanted to find it). The extension was built in 1991, had not failed or fell down or dissolved so just accepted it would be fine.
If it was built fairly recently (within last 15-20 years) I’d want a certificate but if it was done in the 80s or 90s I wouldn’t worry about it. Even if it was signed off it wouldn’t meet todays regs anyway.
SteBrown91 said:
Also, how old is the extension?
Our house had a flat roof extension that fell under PD but no completion certificate (or it was in a paper file at a council somewhere and no-one wanted to find it). The extension was built in 1991, had not failed or fell down or dissolved so just accepted it would be fine.
If it was built fairly recently (within last 15-20 years) I’d want a certificate but if it was done in the 80s or 90s I wouldn’t worry about it. Even if it was signed off it wouldn’t meet today’s regs anyway.
If it’s over 10 years old could it be considered “deemed consent “?Our house had a flat roof extension that fell under PD but no completion certificate (or it was in a paper file at a council somewhere and no-one wanted to find it). The extension was built in 1991, had not failed or fell down or dissolved so just accepted it would be fine.
If it was built fairly recently (within last 15-20 years) I’d want a certificate but if it was done in the 80s or 90s I wouldn’t worry about it. Even if it was signed off it wouldn’t meet today’s regs anyway.
Countdown said:
SteBrown91 said:
Also, how old is the extension?
Our house had a flat roof extension that fell under PD but no completion certificate (or it was in a paper file at a council somewhere and no-one wanted to find it). The extension was built in 1991, had not failed or fell down or dissolved so just accepted it would be fine.
If it was built fairly recently (within last 15-20 years) I’d want a certificate but if it was done in the 80s or 90s I wouldn’t worry about it. Even if it was signed off it wouldn’t meet today’s regs anyway.
If it’s over 10 years old could it be considered “deemed consent “?Our house had a flat roof extension that fell under PD but no completion certificate (or it was in a paper file at a council somewhere and no-one wanted to find it). The extension was built in 1991, had not failed or fell down or dissolved so just accepted it would be fine.
If it was built fairly recently (within last 15-20 years) I’d want a certificate but if it was done in the 80s or 90s I wouldn’t worry about it. Even if it was signed off it wouldn’t meet today’s regs anyway.
bennno said:
If the house is on a modern estate then normally pd rights are withdrawn.
Just found a successful Certificate of Lawfulness application for a house across the road (single storey extension) where it was granted as being with PD. So looks like not withdrawn for the estate.Of course it doesn't mean the extension on the property we're looking at would fulfil PD criteria but it does make it less likely PD rights have been removed.
I've done a bit more digging and as mentioned on this thread, a retrospective Certificate of Lawfulness may be the best way of handling this.
It has been built more than 4 years ago and this seems to suggest it would be fairly straightforward to obtain this certificate.
https://urbanistarchitecture.co.uk/the-four-year-r...
It has been built more than 4 years ago and this seems to suggest it would be fairly straightforward to obtain this certificate.
https://urbanistarchitecture.co.uk/the-four-year-r...
i4got said:
I've done a bit more digging and as mentioned on this thread, a retrospective Certificate of Lawfulness may be the best way of handling this.
It has been built more than 4 years ago and this seems to suggest it would be fairly straightforward to obtain this certificate.
https://urbanistarchitecture.co.uk/the-four-year-r...
Worth being aware that approaching the council about it could remove the vendor’s ability to get indemnity insurance. It has been built more than 4 years ago and this seems to suggest it would be fairly straightforward to obtain this certificate.
https://urbanistarchitecture.co.uk/the-four-year-r...
I would certainly speak to them (the vendors) about your concerns before doing anything else. If they’re clued up and/or have good advisers they could well be extremely pissed off if you go to the council without their knowledge/agreement.
The questions you need to ask yourself are:
1) is the extension lawfully allowed to have been built (Planning)
2) was it built correctly (Building Control)
Re 1: if it needed PP and has it, fine. If it was done under PD then you can check the rules to satisfy yourself (you haven’t given enough info for anyone here to say). Or the owner can get a Certificate of Lawful Development from the Council Planning department - but that takes standard elapsed time (8-12 weeks, if you’re lucky). Or if the owner is convinced it was legal under PD then they can take out an indemnity insurance against it NOT being PD, which would be about £150 usually. Or, if it’s more than 10 years old it is safe as breaches of Planning time out at this point.
Re 2: the owner should have got Buildings Regulation certificate at the time. If not, and they can satisfy BC after the event that it was all done ok at the time, then they can apply for a retrospective Regularisation certificate. You say they have this which sounds good but to me is worth slightly less than a normal certificate as it’s a worry it wasn’t done properly during the works and there’s sometimes an element of trust / assumption that BC have to take on non-visible construction matters. Or the owner can take out another Building Regulation Indemnity Insurance policy.
Overall, many many houses are purchased with extensions in place without all the paperwork and it’s not necesssrily a problem. Your attitude should be based on the size, age and apparent quality of the extension. It’s the modern trend for solicitors to insist on indemnity policies being purchased in the absence of paperwork, but in reality you’ll be living with the extension as it is (rather than getting any tangible benefit from the policies) so it’s the quality of the extension itself you should be considering.
But the existence of a local LDC for a similar extension, and the Regularisation certificate, should be reassuring.
1) is the extension lawfully allowed to have been built (Planning)
2) was it built correctly (Building Control)
Re 1: if it needed PP and has it, fine. If it was done under PD then you can check the rules to satisfy yourself (you haven’t given enough info for anyone here to say). Or the owner can get a Certificate of Lawful Development from the Council Planning department - but that takes standard elapsed time (8-12 weeks, if you’re lucky). Or if the owner is convinced it was legal under PD then they can take out an indemnity insurance against it NOT being PD, which would be about £150 usually. Or, if it’s more than 10 years old it is safe as breaches of Planning time out at this point.
Re 2: the owner should have got Buildings Regulation certificate at the time. If not, and they can satisfy BC after the event that it was all done ok at the time, then they can apply for a retrospective Regularisation certificate. You say they have this which sounds good but to me is worth slightly less than a normal certificate as it’s a worry it wasn’t done properly during the works and there’s sometimes an element of trust / assumption that BC have to take on non-visible construction matters. Or the owner can take out another Building Regulation Indemnity Insurance policy.
Overall, many many houses are purchased with extensions in place without all the paperwork and it’s not necesssrily a problem. Your attitude should be based on the size, age and apparent quality of the extension. It’s the modern trend for solicitors to insist on indemnity policies being purchased in the absence of paperwork, but in reality you’ll be living with the extension as it is (rather than getting any tangible benefit from the policies) so it’s the quality of the extension itself you should be considering.
But the existence of a local LDC for a similar extension, and the Regularisation certificate, should be reassuring.
Edited by PhilboSE on Monday 13th January 07:47
Edited by PhilboSE on Monday 13th January 07:48
LooneyTunes said:
i4got said:
I've done a bit more digging and as mentioned on this thread, a retrospective Certificate of Lawfulness may be the best way of handling this.
It has been built more than 4 years ago and this seems to suggest it would be fairly straightforward to obtain this certificate.
https://urbanistarchitecture.co.uk/the-four-year-r...
Worth being aware that approaching the council about it could remove the vendor’s ability to get indemnity insurance. It has been built more than 4 years ago and this seems to suggest it would be fairly straightforward to obtain this certificate.
https://urbanistarchitecture.co.uk/the-four-year-r...
I would certainly speak to them (the vendors) about your concerns before doing anything else. If they’re clued up and/or have good advisers they could well be extremely pissed off if you go to the council without their knowledge/agreement.
PhilboSE said:
The questions you need to ask yourself are:
1) is the extension lawfully allowed to have been built (Planning)
2) was it built correctly (Building Control)
Re 1: if it needed PP and has it, fine. If it was done under PD then you can check the rules to satisfy yourself (you haven’t given enough info for anyone here to say). Or the owner can get a Certificate of Lawful Development from the Council Planning department - but that takes standard elapsed time (8-12 weeks, if you’re lucky). Or if the owner is convinced it was legal under PD then they can take out an indemnity insurance against it NOT being PD, which would be about £150 usually. Or, if it’s more than 10 years old it is safe as breaches of Planning time out at this point.
Re 2: the owner should have got Buildings Regulation certificate at the time. If not, and they can satisfy BC after the event that it was all done ok at the time, then they can apply for a retrospective Regularisation certificate. You say they have this which sounds good but to me is worth slightly less than a normal certificate as it’s a worry it wasn’t done properly during the works and there’s sometimes an element of trust / assumption that BC have to take on non-visible construction matters. Or the owner can take out another Building Regulation Indemnity Insurance policy.
Overall, many many houses are purchased with extensions in place without all the paperwork and it’s not necesssrily a problem. Your attitude should be based on the size, age and apparent quality of the extension. It’s the modern trend for solicitors to insist on indemnity policies being purchased in the absence of paperwork, but in reality you’ll be living with the extension as it is (rather than getting any tangible benefit from the policies) so it’s the quality of the extension itself you should be considering.
But the existence of a local LDC for a similar extension, and the Regularisation certificate, should be reassuring.
Thanks for this - very useful. On your point about 10 years ago- my understanding (limited) is that as it was built pre 2024 it was 4 years? Or is that a different issue. 1) is the extension lawfully allowed to have been built (Planning)
2) was it built correctly (Building Control)
Re 1: if it needed PP and has it, fine. If it was done under PD then you can check the rules to satisfy yourself (you haven’t given enough info for anyone here to say). Or the owner can get a Certificate of Lawful Development from the Council Planning department - but that takes standard elapsed time (8-12 weeks, if you’re lucky). Or if the owner is convinced it was legal under PD then they can take out an indemnity insurance against it NOT being PD, which would be about £150 usually. Or, if it’s more than 10 years old it is safe as breaches of Planning time out at this point.
Re 2: the owner should have got Buildings Regulation certificate at the time. If not, and they can satisfy BC after the event that it was all done ok at the time, then they can apply for a retrospective Regularisation certificate. You say they have this which sounds good but to me is worth slightly less than a normal certificate as it’s a worry it wasn’t done properly during the works and there’s sometimes an element of trust / assumption that BC have to take on non-visible construction matters. Or the owner can take out another Building Regulation Indemnity Insurance policy.
Overall, many many houses are purchased with extensions in place without all the paperwork and it’s not necesssrily a problem. Your attitude should be based on the size, age and apparent quality of the extension. It’s the modern trend for solicitors to insist on indemnity policies being purchased in the absence of paperwork, but in reality you’ll be living with the extension as it is (rather than getting any tangible benefit from the policies) so it’s the quality of the extension itself you should be considering.
But the existence of a local LDC for a similar extension, and the Regularisation certificate, should be reassuring.
Edited by PhilboSE on Monday 13th January 07:47
Edited by PhilboSE on Monday 13th January 07:48
i4got said:
To be honest I was thinking more about sorting the certificate out after moving in rather than introducing a quite major delay during purchase. I certainly wouldn't involve tge council without discussions with the vendor.
Doing that would invalidate any indemnity policy. They operate on the basis of keep quiet. Seems unlikely there will be enforcement action after this amount of time - the window for a disgruntled neighbour to notice has passed (as in if they were going to do something, then they would have). Given that I would sit it out till ten years - if the council comes knocking, at that point apply for a certificate of lawfulness / planning (it'd have to be borderline for lawfulness if they do come knocking) - they won't just demand you knock it down overnight. If it worries you get a indemnity, but don't make issues by asking the council...
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