Planning enforcement help - gazebo
Discussion
Hi,
Been on PH ages, though sorry, I'm a forum newbie in terms of number of posts as head is usually in carpentry.
On that sort of subject, after doing a bit of research, I put up a gazebo 285cm high within 2 metres of the boundary to block out very busy and nosy uphill neighbours who had gotten away with building a four foot high or so raised platform more than 4 years before I bought this place. I live on a really steep hill and the lowest part of their garden is 80cm above the highest part of my garden, bordered with a retaining wall. As the gazebo starts off 80cm below their garden, to them it is only 205cm high and their platform is of similar height to the eaves!
The kicker to this is that when I mentioned their platform to them and the extreme way our house is overlooked, they said, "build a gazebo". I built it and got snitched to planning enforcement by the same neighbour.
I had the planning guy round with his boss, who got pretty agressive when I tried to discuss highest adjacent levels and insisted the adjacent meant "underneath". I explained that the retaining wall is adjacent and there is a now very narrow 35cm high raised bed in between (that I now realise that I stupidly pushed this back a bit and if I had sunk the rear posts in what was there, even the uneducated bully boy might have agreed my point). He got even more aggressive and threatened action for changing the garden level for pushing the flower bed back for a 4m x 0.6m x 0.3m dig out, which was hardly an hours work, let alone an afternoon.
He said that if I apply for planning that I am likely to get it as he sees no loss of light or amenity, but why should I do this, costing the thick end of £800 if I get someone to draw it up properly and submit it, including planning application fees?
Am going to offer to reinstate the flower bed around the back legs, which ruins the look of it as all the legs are suspended above the ground, to get back to 2.5m from ground up to get this knocked on the head as I'm hacked off with it and have better things to do. Chances are though that enforcement won't accept as not seemingly helpful so far and they have seen the structure in the dug-out configuration.
Please can someone in the know let me know if I am totally wrong here (which I will accept with head hung in shame at not doing my research properly) and what I can do if I am correct and need to challenge this.
Really appreciate some input.
Been on PH ages, though sorry, I'm a forum newbie in terms of number of posts as head is usually in carpentry.
On that sort of subject, after doing a bit of research, I put up a gazebo 285cm high within 2 metres of the boundary to block out very busy and nosy uphill neighbours who had gotten away with building a four foot high or so raised platform more than 4 years before I bought this place. I live on a really steep hill and the lowest part of their garden is 80cm above the highest part of my garden, bordered with a retaining wall. As the gazebo starts off 80cm below their garden, to them it is only 205cm high and their platform is of similar height to the eaves!
The kicker to this is that when I mentioned their platform to them and the extreme way our house is overlooked, they said, "build a gazebo". I built it and got snitched to planning enforcement by the same neighbour.
I had the planning guy round with his boss, who got pretty agressive when I tried to discuss highest adjacent levels and insisted the adjacent meant "underneath". I explained that the retaining wall is adjacent and there is a now very narrow 35cm high raised bed in between (that I now realise that I stupidly pushed this back a bit and if I had sunk the rear posts in what was there, even the uneducated bully boy might have agreed my point). He got even more aggressive and threatened action for changing the garden level for pushing the flower bed back for a 4m x 0.6m x 0.3m dig out, which was hardly an hours work, let alone an afternoon.
He said that if I apply for planning that I am likely to get it as he sees no loss of light or amenity, but why should I do this, costing the thick end of £800 if I get someone to draw it up properly and submit it, including planning application fees?
Am going to offer to reinstate the flower bed around the back legs, which ruins the look of it as all the legs are suspended above the ground, to get back to 2.5m from ground up to get this knocked on the head as I'm hacked off with it and have better things to do. Chances are though that enforcement won't accept as not seemingly helpful so far and they have seen the structure in the dug-out configuration.
Please can someone in the know let me know if I am totally wrong here (which I will accept with head hung in shame at not doing my research properly) and what I can do if I am correct and need to challenge this.
Really appreciate some input.
foojam said:
Hi,
Been on PH ages, though sorry, I'm a forum newbie in terms of number of posts as head is usually in carpentry.
On that sort of subject, after doing a bit of research, I put up a gazebo 285cm high within 2 metres of the boundary to block out very busy and nosy uphill neighbours who had gotten away with building a four foot high or so raised platform more than 4 years before I bought this place. I live on a really steep hill and the lowest part of their garden is 80cm above the highest part of my garden, bordered with a retaining wall. As the gazebo starts off 80cm below their garden, to them it is only 205cm high and their platform is of similar height to the eaves!
The kicker to this is that when I mentioned their platform to them and the extreme way our house is overlooked, they said, "build a gazebo". I built it and got snitched to planning enforcement by the same neighbour.
I had the planning guy round with his boss, who got pretty agressive when I tried to discuss highest adjacent levels and insisted the adjacent meant "underneath". I explained that the retaining wall is adjacent and there is a now very narrow 35cm high raised bed in between (that I now realise that I stupidly pushed this back a bit and if I had sunk the rear posts in what was there, even the uneducated bully boy might have agreed my point). He got even more aggressive and threatened action for changing the garden level for pushing the flower bed back for a 4m x 0.6m x 0.3m dig out, which was hardly an hours work, let alone an afternoon.
He said that if I apply for planning that I am likely to get it as he sees no loss of light or amenity, but why should I do this, costing the thick end of £800 if I get someone to draw it up properly and submit it, including planning application fees?
Am going to offer to reinstate the flower bed around the back legs, which ruins the look of it as all the legs are suspended above the ground, to get back to 2.5m from ground up to get this knocked on the head as I'm hacked off with it and have better things to do. Chances are though that enforcement won't accept as not seemingly helpful so far and they have seen the structure in the dug-out configuration.
Please can someone in the know let me know if I am totally wrong here (which I will accept with head hung in shame at not doing my research properly) and what I can do if I am correct and need to challenge this.
Really appreciate some input.
Pics would indeed help but I am not sure why you are consoling about something you would have seen in place when you even went to view.Been on PH ages, though sorry, I'm a forum newbie in terms of number of posts as head is usually in carpentry.
On that sort of subject, after doing a bit of research, I put up a gazebo 285cm high within 2 metres of the boundary to block out very busy and nosy uphill neighbours who had gotten away with building a four foot high or so raised platform more than 4 years before I bought this place. I live on a really steep hill and the lowest part of their garden is 80cm above the highest part of my garden, bordered with a retaining wall. As the gazebo starts off 80cm below their garden, to them it is only 205cm high and their platform is of similar height to the eaves!
The kicker to this is that when I mentioned their platform to them and the extreme way our house is overlooked, they said, "build a gazebo". I built it and got snitched to planning enforcement by the same neighbour.
I had the planning guy round with his boss, who got pretty agressive when I tried to discuss highest adjacent levels and insisted the adjacent meant "underneath". I explained that the retaining wall is adjacent and there is a now very narrow 35cm high raised bed in between (that I now realise that I stupidly pushed this back a bit and if I had sunk the rear posts in what was there, even the uneducated bully boy might have agreed my point). He got even more aggressive and threatened action for changing the garden level for pushing the flower bed back for a 4m x 0.6m x 0.3m dig out, which was hardly an hours work, let alone an afternoon.
He said that if I apply for planning that I am likely to get it as he sees no loss of light or amenity, but why should I do this, costing the thick end of £800 if I get someone to draw it up properly and submit it, including planning application fees?
Am going to offer to reinstate the flower bed around the back legs, which ruins the look of it as all the legs are suspended above the ground, to get back to 2.5m from ground up to get this knocked on the head as I'm hacked off with it and have better things to do. Chances are though that enforcement won't accept as not seemingly helpful so far and they have seen the structure in the dug-out configuration.
Please can someone in the know let me know if I am totally wrong here (which I will accept with head hung in shame at not doing my research properly) and what I can do if I am correct and need to challenge this.
Really appreciate some input.
I would have run for the hills! (Pun intended).
119 said:
I am not sure why you are consoling about something you would have seen in place when you even went to view.
I would have run for the hills! (Pun intended).
The view the view the view!I would have run for the hills! (Pun intended).
Sold on that, plus it was a do-er upper, deal with problems like this later
Here's the situation before the roof went on and second one is view from above to show how non-high-rise it sits
Going to see if I can sell them on pushing back to the concrete edging line
Thanks, smokey, I understand, however, the Technical Guidance Notes for Permitted Development states:
"The height of the building, enclosure or container should be measured from the highest ground level immediately adjacent to the building, enclosure, or container to its highest point."
In this case, the argument is that the structure is actually 2.05m tall by the rules as far as I see it, at least, that is the question by this metric. As well as if I am correct, what can I do about it? Ask for a second opinion, go to some higher power? If so, who etc.
"The height of the building, enclosure or container should be measured from the highest ground level immediately adjacent to the building, enclosure, or container to its highest point."
In this case, the argument is that the structure is actually 2.05m tall by the rules as far as I see it, at least, that is the question by this metric. As well as if I am correct, what can I do about it? Ask for a second opinion, go to some higher power? If so, who etc.
GMT13 said:
Personally I wouldn't do anything. If you applied for permission there is zero chance of it being refused. But why bother? It wouldn't be expedient for them to take any action. Wait and see what the next step is for planning enforcement before spending £800.
Kicking it constantly into the long grass does sound appealing. I did think of asking more questions, asking for more time etc, but wondered what sort of big stick they could hit me with. You are right, it does seem a waste of money for them to chase thisfoojam said:
Thanks, smokey, I understand, however, the Technical Guidance Notes for Permitted Development states:
"The height of the building, enclosure or container should be measured from the highest ground level immediately adjacent to the building, enclosure, or container to its highest point."
In this case, the argument is that the structure is actually 2.05m tall by the rules as far as I see it, at least, that is the question by this metric. As well as if I am correct, what can I do about it? Ask for a second opinion, go to some higher power? If so, who etc.
As I read your OP the ground level immediately adjacent is your land which is much lower than that of your negihbours and therefore it is over height."The height of the building, enclosure or container should be measured from the highest ground level immediately adjacent to the building, enclosure, or container to its highest point."
In this case, the argument is that the structure is actually 2.05m tall by the rules as far as I see it, at least, that is the question by this metric. As well as if I am correct, what can I do about it? Ask for a second opinion, go to some higher power? If so, who etc.
If you’re hoping to “win” on a technical argument then you’re going to be spending a lot more in professional fees than the £800 you say it will cost you for a planning application.
Yes planners do occasionally make mistakes but their knowledge and expertise on the actual legislation rather than just the summary guidance is generally much better than members of the public.
As for ignoring the enforcement notice, this is bad advice as the planning authority have a duty to pursue this now that a complaint has been raised, investigated and a contravention found.
Puzzles said:
you could knock up some basic drawings and submit them yourself
I've been warned the biggest reason for rejection are drawings that don't have the correct plans, details, scales and keys. Not sure, after reading planning portal requirements, that I have the right software or ability to produce exactly what they need.smokey mow said:
As for ignoring the enforcement notice, this is bad advice as the planning authority have a duty to pursue this now that a complaint has been raised, investigated and a contravention found.
What enforcement notice? As I read the OP’s description there has so far only been an investigation. The planning authority do have a duty to investigate any breaches of planning regs but they are not obliged to enforce against every breach they find. Ultimately, every case has to be reported to committee with a recommendation and unless there is a very good reason to do otherwise those recommendations are generally accepted without question.
So the question then becomes whether through a combination of stubbornness and negotiation the OP can obtain a recommendation of no further action.
On the question of permitted development, wouldn’t the structure have to be a certain distance from the main dwelling to qualify?
Enforcement has to be in the public interest. There is one 3 doors down from me where the notes says it was not in the public interest to continue.
I would write in a factually and non arsy manner thanking them for their visit. Apologising if you have infringed any regulations but you inadvertently took the height of your neighbours land as immediately adjoining.
Note that they have said they if you apply for permission it will likely be granted. State you appreciate the planners are busy and given any continuance of enforcements action must be in the public interest ask what their next proposed action is given ( a) they have said it will be approved if applied for (b) the planners are currently overwhelmed and adding another application would seem to the detriment of the service to others.
They can reply no further action or p
s off we Will throw the book at you.
If costs you 10 minutes of time. Failing that apply. It is not expensive and will make things smoother when and if you sell.
I would write in a factually and non arsy manner thanking them for their visit. Apologising if you have infringed any regulations but you inadvertently took the height of your neighbours land as immediately adjoining.
Note that they have said they if you apply for permission it will likely be granted. State you appreciate the planners are busy and given any continuance of enforcements action must be in the public interest ask what their next proposed action is given ( a) they have said it will be approved if applied for (b) the planners are currently overwhelmed and adding another application would seem to the detriment of the service to others.
They can reply no further action or p
s off we Will throw the book at you. If costs you 10 minutes of time. Failing that apply. It is not expensive and will make things smoother when and if you sell.
Steve H said:
smokey mow said:
As for ignoring the enforcement notice, this is bad advice as the planning authority have a duty to pursue this now that a complaint has been raised, investigated and a contravention found.
What enforcement notice? As I read the OP’s description there has so far only been an investigation. The op has already said that formal action has been threatened.
The LA are correctly following the Regulators Code by asking nicely in the first instance and offering advice on the correct course of action. If the OP fails to do anything then a formal notice will then be severed advising him of his legal responsibilities.
If the OP fails to take action after this notice, only then will the LA consider whether it is in the public interest to pursue action through the courts for its removal.
foojam said:
He said that if I apply for planning that I am likely to get it as he sees no loss of light or amenity
A little bit high risk strategy but if they are telling you this then if you do not submit an application they will be forced to consider the 'expediency' of taking further action and are likely to conclude it isn't worth pursuing, as you could appeal an Enforcement Notice and may well win. An Enforcement Notice will need to spell out what you need to do to remedy the breach of planning - which may be reduce the height etc. You may have a case under that ground of appeal to argue a different solution, and also under 'Ground A' that there is no harm in terms of the planning issues and consent should be granted anyway.
smokey mow said:
Steve H said:
smokey mow said:
As for ignoring the enforcement notice, this is bad advice as the planning authority have a duty to pursue this now that a complaint has been raised, investigated and a contravention found.
What enforcement notice? As I read the OP’s description there has so far only been an investigation. The op has already said that formal action has been threatened.
The LA are correctly following the Regulators Code by asking nicely in the first instance and offering advice on the correct course of action. If the OP fails to do anything then a formal notice will then be severed advising him of his legal responsibilities.
If the OP fails to take action after this notice, only then will the LA consider whether it is in the public interest to pursue action through the courts for its removal.
But as others have said, it does not mean that enforcement will be the ultimate result.
One thing I have found in dealing with planners and similar organisations is that they try to set everything up for their own convenience. Cooperating with this is not always the way to go because they find it very inconvenient and time consuming to pursue their goals if you do not follow their preferred system. Digging your heels in on a case that they know you would probably win has every chance of getting the system to work in your favour instead of having to jump through hoops for something that shouldn’t require it.
Of course some cases are enforced and it is a strategy that may not succeed but it comes with relatively little risk to give it a try.
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