Some Permitted Development questions
Discussion
HI all,
Just wanted to ask about permitted development (rather than full planning).
I've had a look at properties that have had rear extensions approved under PD from my local council - all that has been submitted to the Council is a form with basic details, property, immediate neighbours, written description of proposed works and a site plan and block plan (1:500 and 1:1250 iirc) - these plans just show a shaded area where the extension will be - no details to say whether its a flat roof, pitched, ridge (or any other type), nothing to show if it will have windows and doors etc.
Firstly, why do these get approved without knowing what its going to look like? whats stopping me putting a massive windows looking into my neighbours garden or similar?
And secondly, if you dont need plans to build an extension under PD - how does the builder know what he is to build exactly, is it just the householder saying plonk one velux there, another one there and a bi-fold there? how does the builder know how deep the footings should be or the floor insulation etc?
Apparently I can get my extension done under the larger homes PD scheme but two people have now told me i dont need plans - which seems bonkers to me
Just wanted to ask about permitted development (rather than full planning).
I've had a look at properties that have had rear extensions approved under PD from my local council - all that has been submitted to the Council is a form with basic details, property, immediate neighbours, written description of proposed works and a site plan and block plan (1:500 and 1:1250 iirc) - these plans just show a shaded area where the extension will be - no details to say whether its a flat roof, pitched, ridge (or any other type), nothing to show if it will have windows and doors etc.
Firstly, why do these get approved without knowing what its going to look like? whats stopping me putting a massive windows looking into my neighbours garden or similar?
And secondly, if you dont need plans to build an extension under PD - how does the builder know what he is to build exactly, is it just the householder saying plonk one velux there, another one there and a bi-fold there? how does the builder know how deep the footings should be or the floor insulation etc?
Apparently I can get my extension done under the larger homes PD scheme but two people have now told me i dont need plans - which seems bonkers to me
consigliere
when doing an extension, you need plans, building reg specs and structural engineer drawings at a minimum. You may need various other surveys as well (trees, drains, bats blah blah)
But as a minimum, your structural engineer will need some plans so that they can tell you what size and spec beams you will need, same with building regs.
when doing an extension, you need plans, building reg specs and structural engineer drawings at a minimum. You may need various other surveys as well (trees, drains, bats blah blah)
But as a minimum, your structural engineer will need some plans so that they can tell you what size and spec beams you will need, same with building regs.
There's two elements to this. As far as Permitted Development goes, if it is deemed 'Permitted Development' or PD, then the proposal is considered to have been granted planning permission under Class A of the General Permitted Development Order, based purely on the size of it. The Council are not judging its design, and have 42 days to consider the proposal, as well as consult the neighbours for their views. As such, the design or specific plans are not needed. Only the dimensions and whether there are any existing extensions is needed. It is based on a long standing process based on agricultural/forestry and other types of prior approval.
Initially, it is purely assessing the size of the proposal and whether it meets the size allowed. If no neighbours object, then provided it is within the size limits (or no decision is granted within 42 days), the prior approval is granted. If an objection is received, then the council must consider the impact of the proposal upon the amenity of any adjoining premises. If they are to issue the prior approval, they can do this unconditionally or with conditions, or refuse it. There is a right of appeal. This
This is all for the consideration of the planning aspect. Should the development proceed, plans will be needed so the builder knows what they are building, even if they don't always follow them (!)and building regs can follow and assess what has been professionally designed. There may be records with building regs, but these are not required to be kept by the Planning Department.
Initially, it is purely assessing the size of the proposal and whether it meets the size allowed. If no neighbours object, then provided it is within the size limits (or no decision is granted within 42 days), the prior approval is granted. If an objection is received, then the council must consider the impact of the proposal upon the amenity of any adjoining premises. If they are to issue the prior approval, they can do this unconditionally or with conditions, or refuse it. There is a right of appeal. This
This is all for the consideration of the planning aspect. Should the development proceed, plans will be needed so the builder knows what they are building, even if they don't always follow them (!)and building regs can follow and assess what has been professionally designed. There may be records with building regs, but these are not required to be kept by the Planning Department.
Firstly, why do these get approved without knowing what its going to look like? whats stopping me putting a massive windows looking into my neighbours garden or similar?
Because the GPDO doesn't require those details - abridged version;
(2) Before beginning the development the developer must provide the following information to the local planning authority
(a) a written description of the proposed development including—
(i) how far the enlarged part of the dwellinghouse extends beyond the rear wall of the original dwellinghouse;
(ii) the maximum height of the enlarged part of the dwellinghouse; and
(iii) the height of the eaves of the enlarged part of the dwellinghouse;
(my bold on the written bit)
So, you could put windows where you want, literally, under PD.
And secondly, if you dont need plans to build an extension under PD - how does the builder know what he is to build exactly, is it just the householder saying plonk one velux there, another one there and a bi-fold there? how does the builder know how deep the footings should be or the floor insulation etc?
Depends on how good the builder is (semi serious comment) but some form of 'communication' between the client and the builder is necessary, be it a hand drawn sketch, a discussion (leading to the 'I didn't include that in the price'), to full working drawings... or something in between.
In terms of the technical side, a good builder will be up to speed with current Building Regulations, but not all builders are equal. Generally, for foundations, they will dig what they think is acceptable (e.g. 1m down) and then let the Inspector confirm if they are happy with the ground conditions. What if there is a raft, coal mines, etc. (but then again domestic clients rarely (if ever) have any ground investigation carried out).
The issues arise when the builder isn't up to speed and 'thinks' that they know best, do something, it turns out to be wrong and then the problems begin. If it is a simple 'lean to at the rear' then it might possible to not have drawings, but the more complex the job, the more information is required.
The benefit of drawings (& spec/calcs/etc.) is that the client and builder have something to use as the basis of a contract and, with a full plans Building Regs application, those drawings/calcs/etc are an approved set of documents.
Apparently I can get my extension done under the larger homes PD scheme but two people have now told me i dont need plans - which seems bonkers to me
Yes, this is possible (as above GPDO extract) but... it's akin to saying you want a car and have the vision of a Ferrari, but the builder doesn't interpret your requirements in the same way and you end up with a Ford (or others...) and you aren't happy... so what are you going to do... go to court..?
Day one in court; what does the contract (can be written/verbal/implied) state... there isn't really one. So, you as a layperson, will then have to then argue what you said to the builder (that has x years of experience), they argue against you and the judge decides who it telling the fewest lies... who wins?
Even if you 'win', the builder closes the business, pays nothing and starts again next week (been there in a previous life as the employer).
Rarely can clients see the benefit of full information, until it all goes wrong... yes, it is easy to see that you will save £1000-3000 on drawings/spec/calcs now but what might it save you if it all goes wrong? Not to mention a whole heap of stress.
Because the GPDO doesn't require those details - abridged version;
(2) Before beginning the development the developer must provide the following information to the local planning authority
(a) a written description of the proposed development including—
(i) how far the enlarged part of the dwellinghouse extends beyond the rear wall of the original dwellinghouse;
(ii) the maximum height of the enlarged part of the dwellinghouse; and
(iii) the height of the eaves of the enlarged part of the dwellinghouse;
(my bold on the written bit)
So, you could put windows where you want, literally, under PD.
And secondly, if you dont need plans to build an extension under PD - how does the builder know what he is to build exactly, is it just the householder saying plonk one velux there, another one there and a bi-fold there? how does the builder know how deep the footings should be or the floor insulation etc?
Depends on how good the builder is (semi serious comment) but some form of 'communication' between the client and the builder is necessary, be it a hand drawn sketch, a discussion (leading to the 'I didn't include that in the price'), to full working drawings... or something in between.
In terms of the technical side, a good builder will be up to speed with current Building Regulations, but not all builders are equal. Generally, for foundations, they will dig what they think is acceptable (e.g. 1m down) and then let the Inspector confirm if they are happy with the ground conditions. What if there is a raft, coal mines, etc. (but then again domestic clients rarely (if ever) have any ground investigation carried out).
The issues arise when the builder isn't up to speed and 'thinks' that they know best, do something, it turns out to be wrong and then the problems begin. If it is a simple 'lean to at the rear' then it might possible to not have drawings, but the more complex the job, the more information is required.
The benefit of drawings (& spec/calcs/etc.) is that the client and builder have something to use as the basis of a contract and, with a full plans Building Regs application, those drawings/calcs/etc are an approved set of documents.
Apparently I can get my extension done under the larger homes PD scheme but two people have now told me i dont need plans - which seems bonkers to me
Yes, this is possible (as above GPDO extract) but... it's akin to saying you want a car and have the vision of a Ferrari, but the builder doesn't interpret your requirements in the same way and you end up with a Ford (or others...) and you aren't happy... so what are you going to do... go to court..?
Day one in court; what does the contract (can be written/verbal/implied) state... there isn't really one. So, you as a layperson, will then have to then argue what you said to the builder (that has x years of experience), they argue against you and the judge decides who it telling the fewest lies... who wins?
Even if you 'win', the builder closes the business, pays nothing and starts again next week (been there in a previous life as the employer).
Rarely can clients see the benefit of full information, until it all goes wrong... yes, it is easy to see that you will save £1000-3000 on drawings/spec/calcs now but what might it save you if it all goes wrong? Not to mention a whole heap of stress.
Hi all, one thing that has cropped up which may put a spanner in the works potentially is that I have a stepped rear wall. Can I have a rear extension 6m out from each rear wall, so in effect having an extension with a new stepped rear or does it have to be a maximum of 6m overall which will leave me with a non stepped rear (straight wall)?
Small update, the stepped rear is actually an extension (according to my architect) which means PD rights are impacted as part of the extension to be built will be off the original rear wall, and part of the extension wall.
2 separate applications will have to be submitted, one for the original rear wall and one for the bit that extends from the stepped rear.
A bit of a faff but thats the way to do it.
2 separate applications will have to be submitted, one for the original rear wall and one for the bit that extends from the stepped rear.
A bit of a faff but thats the way to do it.
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