Buying a property in the French alps
Discussion
Good morning!
We are currently contemplating buying a small bolt hold in the Alps, more specifically Morzine (where we have been holidaying for 20+ years.
Now we have kids who enjoy the mountains both summer and winter and with the eye watering cost of holidays in school holidays we are considering purchasing a 2 / 3 bed flat as we would rather put this money towards an asset rather than paying someone else’s mortgage.
The aim of this (probably unrealistic) is to hopefully where possible wash its own face with renting out and covering our holidays 2x winter 1x summer.
I guess the question is for those who have done this what is the reality like of getting people into the property (ideally circa 10 weeks a year), working with management agents and the whole buying process.
The rough cost of the mortgage is equivalent to three holidays a year based on current interest rates and my wife has a European passport too if this makes it any easier
P.s I’m sure if we get it there will be a PistonHeads discount code!!
We are currently contemplating buying a small bolt hold in the Alps, more specifically Morzine (where we have been holidaying for 20+ years.
Now we have kids who enjoy the mountains both summer and winter and with the eye watering cost of holidays in school holidays we are considering purchasing a 2 / 3 bed flat as we would rather put this money towards an asset rather than paying someone else’s mortgage.
The aim of this (probably unrealistic) is to hopefully where possible wash its own face with renting out and covering our holidays 2x winter 1x summer.
I guess the question is for those who have done this what is the reality like of getting people into the property (ideally circa 10 weeks a year), working with management agents and the whole buying process.
The rough cost of the mortgage is equivalent to three holidays a year based on current interest rates and my wife has a European passport too if this makes it any easier
P.s I’m sure if we get it there will be a PistonHeads discount code!!
Edited by andrewjamesroberts on Saturday 14th October 08:26
My sister lives in Morzine, they moved there about 5 years ago to escape inner London life and give their four children a better existence.
Overall their move has been positive, they still work in London with regular commutes which can be tough, but they enjoy it and the children are happy, bilingual and getting a much more rounded experience that isn't just hot-house private schooling.
Not much to add in terms of the difficulties they experienced (I think for them, both being good French speakers and quite outgoing, it wasn't too hard) but they don't regret it, if that helps.
Note the snow is s
te these days though so don't go for the skiing. And in summer the mountain bikers are a bunch of arses but it isn't too bad. You'll probably know this already from having holidayed there.
Overall their move has been positive, they still work in London with regular commutes which can be tough, but they enjoy it and the children are happy, bilingual and getting a much more rounded experience that isn't just hot-house private schooling.
Not much to add in terms of the difficulties they experienced (I think for them, both being good French speakers and quite outgoing, it wasn't too hard) but they don't regret it, if that helps.
Note the snow is s
te these days though so don't go for the skiing. And in summer the mountain bikers are a bunch of arses but it isn't too bad. You'll probably know this already from having holidayed there. blueg33 said:
Renting out for a holiday let is a PITA unless you live next door. We have a place in Devon 3 hrs from us, even with a brilliant housekeeper it’s too far away.
IMO only donut if you don’t have to rent it out.
Also, beware French property taxes.
Disagree 100%.IMO only donut if you don’t have to rent it out.
Also, beware French property taxes.
Our place is let 10-20 weeks of the year, including summer which is super busy, through Airbnb and TripAdvisor. The rentals business is run by my mother, who is 78 and no local agent. You just need a good local cleaning lady/bedder. We've owned it for 25 yrs. Don't ask how much my dad paid for it!
Location is everything. Rentals are inifnte for Morzine.
The_Doc said:
blueg33 said:
Renting out for a holiday let is a PITA unless you live next door. We have a place in Devon 3 hrs from us, even with a brilliant housekeeper it’s too far away.
IMO only donut if you don’t have to rent it out.
Also, beware French property taxes.
Disagree 100%.IMO only donut if you don’t have to rent it out.
Also, beware French property taxes.
Our place is let 10-20 weeks of the year, including summer which is super busy, through Airbnb and TripAdvisor. The rentals business is run by my mother, who is 78 and no local agent. You just need a good local cleaning lady/bedder. We've owned it for 25 yrs. Don't ask how much my dad paid for it!
Location is everything. Rentals are inifnte for Morzine.
Thanks for all the comments and advice so far!
100% get the location x3 in morzine, we would select a 2 bed over a 3 for location.
I remember looking 20 years ago and and i try not to think about it but the. You can say that about all property!
Snow wise I get it, we have been there through good years and bad years …. Christmas 2015 springs to mind where there was nothing in Morz/ LG but have always got up onto the mountain in Avoriaz but the summer season is still great.
There is also the consideration of a new build as there are VAT rebates if you satisfy a few conditions which makes it a little more attractive.
We have a small network of friends out there (mainly seasonal) but they know who to use for changeover etc and could jump in if st hit the fan.
100% get the location x3 in morzine, we would select a 2 bed over a 3 for location.
I remember looking 20 years ago and and i try not to think about it but the. You can say that about all property!
Snow wise I get it, we have been there through good years and bad years …. Christmas 2015 springs to mind where there was nothing in Morz/ LG but have always got up onto the mountain in Avoriaz but the summer season is still great.
There is also the consideration of a new build as there are VAT rebates if you satisfy a few conditions which makes it a little more attractive.
We have a small network of friends out there (mainly seasonal) but they know who to use for changeover etc and could jump in if s
t hit the fan. Edited by andrewjamesroberts on Saturday 14th October 15:36
Just be aware that most of the money is made in peak ski weeks. If you're going to want to use the flat in half term and Christmas you've lost 2 of the most profitable weeks, and will need to rent it out a lot more weeks at other times of the year to cover the difference. My mate's place basically covers it's cost over 4 key weeks (Xmas, 2x half term, easter), the rest is profit or personal use. There are plenty of agents in Morzine who will arrange everything, you just leave your stuff in a ski locker or cupboard.
Are rentals in snow resorts likely to need more maintenance?
I was analysing how rental apartment we had in the south coast worked with the missus yesterday and for them it was easy, like a Gite the owners lived across the road with cleaning being done yourself for a few hours, upkeep manageable on any work needed and you could keep an eye on it for wild parties.
Not sure I could do it remotely from the UK though, there is bound to be something that's going to go wrong!
I was analysing how rental apartment we had in the south coast worked with the missus yesterday and for them it was easy, like a Gite the owners lived across the road with cleaning being done yourself for a few hours, upkeep manageable on any work needed and you could keep an eye on it for wild parties.
Not sure I could do it remotely from the UK though, there is bound to be something that's going to go wrong!
Again that’s for the advice!
We are at very early stages of this pipedream and going to go into it with our eyes wide open. Need to build the business plan and really look at the costs of taxes, service charges and utilities etc.
We understand from someone who sent a DM that there are changes coming in legislation that we need to look into.
We have been looking at newer properties, and whilst we have done a fair bit of renovation in the Uk are not crazy enough to tackle something abroad (and there are incentives around VAT (tva) on new builds at the moment, which we are doing research into)
The reality is we would use a someone to manage the property as yes it’s a long way to drop some keys off. We are not looking at making a profit on this but as close as we can to breaking even would be ideal (again we need to work if this is even possible)
In terms of when we would use it we 100% get that school holidays are the main money making times and yes (without kids being quite young) we can be a little more flexible with the winter season. But also gives the option of last min weekends away if it’s not being used and is a fair bit simpler when you have all your kit stored out there.
Our ultimate goal is to eventually retire in the mountains when the kids are older (a fair bit off) so getting a foot hold now feels like a good test.
I forgot about snowheads forum I’ll check it out.
We are at very early stages of this pipedream and going to go into it with our eyes wide open. Need to build the business plan and really look at the costs of taxes, service charges and utilities etc.
We understand from someone who sent a DM that there are changes coming in legislation that we need to look into.
We have been looking at newer properties, and whilst we have done a fair bit of renovation in the Uk are not crazy enough to tackle something abroad (and there are incentives around VAT (tva) on new builds at the moment, which we are doing research into)
The reality is we would use a someone to manage the property as yes it’s a long way to drop some keys off. We are not looking at making a profit on this but as close as we can to breaking even would be ideal (again we need to work if this is even possible)
In terms of when we would use it we 100% get that school holidays are the main money making times and yes (without kids being quite young) we can be a little more flexible with the winter season. But also gives the option of last min weekends away if it’s not being used and is a fair bit simpler when you have all your kit stored out there.
Our ultimate goal is to eventually retire in the mountains when the kids are older (a fair bit off) so getting a foot hold now feels like a good test.
I forgot about snowheads forum I’ll check it out.
I love Morzine, I've been going myself for 15 years.
I've toyed with the idea too, but I could never make the numbers work without more cash to invest at the start. It seemed you had a choice, buy something in Town or at least close to a lift and it was €500k+ with a annual rental income (after fees etc) of about €15k or somewhere out of town of in Montriond etc and it was incredible value, but had no real rental value.
That said, with Winter seasons getting shorter (or at least good snow) and the Summer season getting longer PdS are investing to make it a 12 month resort. That Mountain Coast in Les Gets is part of that.
I've toyed with the idea too, but I could never make the numbers work without more cash to invest at the start. It seemed you had a choice, buy something in Town or at least close to a lift and it was €500k+ with a annual rental income (after fees etc) of about €15k or somewhere out of town of in Montriond etc and it was incredible value, but had no real rental value.
That said, with Winter seasons getting shorter (or at least good snow) and the Summer season getting longer PdS are investing to make it a 12 month resort. That Mountain Coast in Les Gets is part of that.
I've been holidaying in Morzine for 30 years and bought a place out there a few years ago.
The difference in climate is marked over that time. The winters are getting warmer and warmer. If this is a long term plan, then I would seriously consider the impact of the lack of snow in Morzine.
If skiing is your main priority, then maybe consider Avoriaz instead. Or another higher resort.
The summer season is becoming very popular. In fact I would say now just as busy as winter. My family prefer summers out there - a much wider variety of activities available.
The difference in climate is marked over that time. The winters are getting warmer and warmer. If this is a long term plan, then I would seriously consider the impact of the lack of snow in Morzine.
If skiing is your main priority, then maybe consider Avoriaz instead. Or another higher resort.
The summer season is becoming very popular. In fact I would say now just as busy as winter. My family prefer summers out there - a much wider variety of activities available.
Just wondered if you made a decision on purchasing a Morzine property? We are looking to do the same - trying to decide between Morzine, french alps or the Lake District, UK. We visit both a lot in winter and summer and love both places. Morzine is further to go and has the added complications of the french system, taxes and also a lot more capital gains tax if we should choose to sell the property. U.K. we could buy a freehold that has a good short term rental history whereas Morzine is most likely to be Leasehold. Any advice?
Morzine have had an awful season. We went in January and all the lower slopes were grass. We got talking to a couple of locals who said the town is boosting its summer season for Mountain Bikers etc and need to grow that revenue as there is massive concerns in the area people will start picking higher resorts to visit like Val T, Val D and Tignes to get snow and Morzine will struggle in 10-15 years time to compete which will affect prices there.
I am just repeating what they said really, I have no idea if that will happen but I guess what they were saying was logical.
I am just repeating what they said really, I have no idea if that will happen but I guess what they were saying was logical.
Edited by interstellar on Monday 4th November 17:35
And yet the mega chalets keep on breaking ground in the village.
A legacy/1970s one bedroom appt walking distance from the lifts starts at €270,000 and there s a flood of new appts coming on the market
Who is investing in an 1100 m resort that isn't really snow sure any more (perhaps)?
As for buying in Les Gets, that's an even longer trek to the 1800m snow.
I love Morzine, but personally I think there's a micro property bubble coming.
A legacy/1970s one bedroom appt walking distance from the lifts starts at €270,000 and there s a flood of new appts coming on the market
Who is investing in an 1100 m resort that isn't really snow sure any more (perhaps)?
As for buying in Les Gets, that's an even longer trek to the 1800m snow.
I love Morzine, but personally I think there's a micro property bubble coming.
Lots of talk about this over the last year or 2, the lower resorts are really struggling and it's definitely affecting holiday bookings. Maybe Morzine less so (for now!) as it's a bigger place, but other resorts are not getting the early bookings with people unwilling to commit until they see the snow. You'd be brave to invest in something at lower levels if you can afford something in a more snow sure resort.
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