Subsidence claim help
Discussion
I'm currently starting a subsidence claim on my property, looks pretty hefty movement so I'd like it sorted asap obviously.
Our current insurer is saying that because the initial crack was first noticed over a year ago they are not responsible for it, and it's our previous insurers problem.
Previous insurers say no way, not our problem but we pay half, as per industry standard agreements. Makes sense.
Each of them are saying the other is interpreting guidance wrong etc...
Help!!!!
Also being told by current insurers that it should have been reported as soon as a crack appears, which seems retarded as any house ever will crack slightly ..
At the moment it's going nowhere so any advice would be appreciated!!
Our current insurer is saying that because the initial crack was first noticed over a year ago they are not responsible for it, and it's our previous insurers problem.
Previous insurers say no way, not our problem but we pay half, as per industry standard agreements. Makes sense.
Each of them are saying the other is interpreting guidance wrong etc...
Help!!!!
Also being told by current insurers that it should have been reported as soon as a crack appears, which seems retarded as any house ever will crack slightly ..
At the moment it's going nowhere so any advice would be appreciated!!
Mod edit, insurers names removed to avoid name and shame.
Ouch.
No idea on the insurance companies positions but it’d have to be mega bucks for me to claim for subsidence based on my experience of trying to insure a place with history of a claim. (We were the potential purchaser of a place that had suffered a small amount of heave based subsidence )
In our case, the claim meant that only the one company would accept us ( the company that paid out ) and they wanted 2k for buildings cover. They told me that it would be this way for up to 25 years !
I tried to use this as a negotiation tactic but the vendor was having none of it - we pulled out in the end.
No idea on the insurance companies positions but it’d have to be mega bucks for me to claim for subsidence based on my experience of trying to insure a place with history of a claim. (We were the potential purchaser of a place that had suffered a small amount of heave based subsidence )
In our case, the claim meant that only the one company would accept us ( the company that paid out ) and they wanted 2k for buildings cover. They told me that it would be this way for up to 25 years !
I tried to use this as a negotiation tactic but the vendor was having none of it - we pulled out in the end.
Lotobear said:
...that or speak with the insurance ombudsman
I think you need to complete the complaints process first.A well worded email to the CEO (via https://www.ceoemail.com/) might prompt a customer service review.
fat80b said:
Ouch.
No idea on the insurance companies positions but it’d have to be mega bucks for me to claim for subsidence based on my experience of trying to insure a place with history of a claim. (We were the potential purchaser of a place that had suffered a small amount of heave based subsidence )
In our case, the claim meant that only the one company would accept us ( the company that paid out ) and they wanted 2k for buildings cover. They told me that it would be this way for up to 25 years !
I tried to use this as a negotiation tactic but the vendor was having none of it - we pulled out in the end.
It's not great, an enormous horizontal crack has opened between the original stone house and modern(20yrish) extension. Looks like it wasn't properly block bonded at all.No idea on the insurance companies positions but it’d have to be mega bucks for me to claim for subsidence based on my experience of trying to insure a place with history of a claim. (We were the potential purchaser of a place that had suffered a small amount of heave based subsidence )
In our case, the claim meant that only the one company would accept us ( the company that paid out ) and they wanted 2k for buildings cover. They told me that it would be this way for up to 25 years !
I tried to use this as a negotiation tactic but the vendor was having none of it - we pulled out in the end.
Don't even know how to begin to fix, as opposed to stopping further movement!
fat80b said:
Ouch.
No idea on the insurance companies positions but it’d have to be mega bucks for me to claim for subsidence based on my experience of trying to insure a place with history of a claim. (We were the potential purchaser of a place that had suffered a small amount of heave based subsidence )
In our case, the claim meant that only the one company would accept us ( the company that paid out ) and they wanted 2k for buildings cover. They told me that it would be this way for up to 25 years !
I tried to use this as a negotiation tactic but the vendor was having none of it - we pulled out in the end.
There are various insurers who don't ask, provided it's not ongoing. There are others who are only concerned up to a certain number of years. On the other hand, there is no declaration limit so some will never insure.No idea on the insurance companies positions but it’d have to be mega bucks for me to claim for subsidence based on my experience of trying to insure a place with history of a claim. (We were the potential purchaser of a place that had suffered a small amount of heave based subsidence )
In our case, the claim meant that only the one company would accept us ( the company that paid out ) and they wanted 2k for buildings cover. They told me that it would be this way for up to 25 years !
I tried to use this as a negotiation tactic but the vendor was having none of it - we pulled out in the end.
tommobot said:
fat80b said:
Ouch.
No idea on the insurance companies positions but it’d have to be mega bucks for me to claim for subsidence based on my experience of trying to insure a place with history of a claim. (We were the potential purchaser of a place that had suffered a small amount of heave based subsidence )
In our case, the claim meant that only the one company would accept us ( the company that paid out ) and they wanted 2k for buildings cover. They told me that it would be this way for up to 25 years !
I tried to use this as a negotiation tactic but the vendor was having none of it - we pulled out in the end.
It's not great, an enormous horizontal crack has opened between the original stone house and modern(20yrish) extension. Looks like it wasn't properly block bonded at all.No idea on the insurance companies positions but it’d have to be mega bucks for me to claim for subsidence based on my experience of trying to insure a place with history of a claim. (We were the potential purchaser of a place that had suffered a small amount of heave based subsidence )
In our case, the claim meant that only the one company would accept us ( the company that paid out ) and they wanted 2k for buildings cover. They told me that it would be this way for up to 25 years !
I tried to use this as a negotiation tactic but the vendor was having none of it - we pulled out in the end.
Don't even know how to begin to fix, as opposed to stopping further movement!
Nope.
They've seen some photos I've sent and a brief videocall.
No investigation, no on site assessment but because the crack was originally noticed (when I said this I meant and said hairline crack) over a year ago they're seemingly ignoring it.
According to their logic, ANY crack I see in my house first built in 1890ish must be reported to them, just incase it develops further.
s.
They've seen some photos I've sent and a brief videocall.
No investigation, no on site assessment but because the crack was originally noticed (when I said this I meant and said hairline crack) over a year ago they're seemingly ignoring it.
According to their logic, ANY crack I see in my house first built in 1890ish must be reported to them, just incase it develops further.
s.I can see why they are passing the buck. As far as they are concerned it started to happen before they insured you, had you of told them when you took the policy out they might not have covered you.
same for the last insurer, you didn't tell them at the time it started so now cant go back to them as they no longer insure you.
Really nasty situation tbh and as always with these things honesty has caused a problem, most others would just act dumb and say they only just saw it.
I am not an expert at all but if its cracking where the buildings join then its one of the buildings thats moving. I would almost guarantee its been caused by the long dry spell this year. I would bet it closes back up again once the rains come back.
Not that much help i know but hope it gets sorted for you.
same for the last insurer, you didn't tell them at the time it started so now cant go back to them as they no longer insure you.
Really nasty situation tbh and as always with these things honesty has caused a problem, most others would just act dumb and say they only just saw it.
I am not an expert at all but if its cracking where the buildings join then its one of the buildings thats moving. I would almost guarantee its been caused by the long dry spell this year. I would bet it closes back up again once the rains come back.
Not that much help i know but hope it gets sorted for you.
m3jappa said:
I can see why they are passing the buck. As far as they are concerned it started to happen before they insured you, had you of told them when you took the policy out they might not have covered you.
same for the last insurer, you didn't tell them at the time it started so now cant go back to them as they no longer insure you.
RE your last point, I don't think this is correct as subsidence is a relatively slow moving situation.same for the last insurer, you didn't tell them at the time it started so now cant go back to them as they no longer insure you.
OP, definitely enlist the services of an independent claims assessor; I doubt this is the first time they've seen this scenario.
fat80b said:
Ouch.
No idea on the insurance companies positions but it’d have to be mega bucks for me to claim for subsidence based on my experience of trying to insure a place with history of a claim. (We were the potential purchaser of a place that had suffered a small amount of heave based subsidence )
In our case, the claim meant that only the one company would accept us ( the company that paid out ) and they wanted 2k for buildings cover. They told me that it would be this way for up to 25 years !
I tried to use this as a negotiation tactic but the vendor was having none of it - we pulled out in the end.
The insurance company that settle the claim has to provide cover at or about the pre-claim policy cost. We had a claimed 16 years ago. We’ve had no issue with insurance or the cost of it. Also seems like 15 years is the cut-off, as last year is the first time we’ve be able to shop around. But our existing company is the cheapest for the cover we want. No idea on the insurance companies positions but it’d have to be mega bucks for me to claim for subsidence based on my experience of trying to insure a place with history of a claim. (We were the potential purchaser of a place that had suffered a small amount of heave based subsidence )
In our case, the claim meant that only the one company would accept us ( the company that paid out ) and they wanted 2k for buildings cover. They told me that it would be this way for up to 25 years !
I tried to use this as a negotiation tactic but the vendor was having none of it - we pulled out in the end.
heisthegaffer said:
RE your last point, I don't think this is correct as subsidence is a relatively slow moving situation.
OP, definitely enlist the services of an independent claims assessor; I doubt this is the first time they've seen this scenario.
As i say i am definitely not an expert and i almost feel a bit silly saying this as im not an engineer but i have seen patios constructed on proper sub bases suffer from heave or subsidence within a matter of months. typically caused by long dry spells. OP, definitely enlist the services of an independent claims assessor; I doubt this is the first time they've seen this scenario.
A mate was telling me yesterday that a patio he did in july has opened up by nearly 6" !
An example
We just dug out a patio, dug down to 320mm deep, all looking normal. the last corner we got to showed some cracking, further investigation showed cracks going down around 1m deep. Thats 300 mm or so beneath the surface! we dug down 1m deep in that area and you could see them running down the exposed ground that wasn't dug out next to it.
those cracks have appeared over the summer, just 3-4mths id guess.
Now imagine if over that particular ground was an old building on shallow foundations, or imagine that there was an extension butted up next to an old building.
I believe insurers call years like this event years due to the amount of claims.
You may find this helpful
https://www.cila.co.uk/cila/download-link/sig-down...
The point being that if you have continuously insured your house, then one of those insurers is on the hook to meet the claim.
They may protest about late notification, or pre inception damage, but unless you possess special knowledge how are you expected to appreciate the significance of minor defects & what may be the longer term consequences.
I would recommend that you consult a structural engineer that is experienced in structural defect investigation.
https://www.cila.co.uk/cila/download-link/sig-down...
The point being that if you have continuously insured your house, then one of those insurers is on the hook to meet the claim.
They may protest about late notification, or pre inception damage, but unless you possess special knowledge how are you expected to appreciate the significance of minor defects & what may be the longer term consequences.
I would recommend that you consult a structural engineer that is experienced in structural defect investigation.
N111BJG said:
You may find this helpful
https://www.cila.co.uk/cila/download-link/sig-down...
The point being that if you have continuously insured your house, then one of those insurers is on the hook to meet the claim.
They may protest about late notification, or pre inception damage, but unless you possess special knowledge how are you expected to appreciate the significance of minor defects & what may be the longer term consequences.
I would recommend that you consult a structural engineer that is experienced in structural defect investigation.
Good advice but, normally or at least IME, the insurer will pay the cost of the initial investigation in order to establish whether policy liability exists (regardless of whether it is ultimatley established) so I would bottom that first so that you are not left with the cost. For that reason I remain of the view that a chat with a tame loss assessor or independent insurance professional might be a good first step.https://www.cila.co.uk/cila/download-link/sig-down...
The point being that if you have continuously insured your house, then one of those insurers is on the hook to meet the claim.
They may protest about late notification, or pre inception damage, but unless you possess special knowledge how are you expected to appreciate the significance of minor defects & what may be the longer term consequences.
I would recommend that you consult a structural engineer that is experienced in structural defect investigation.
Heres a photo externally, this is tapered so the bottom is completely closed and the top is considerably open.
As shown, there is a bead of mastic / sealant along the join that would hide any initial movement, so until its considerably moved its difficult to notice too much.
I'm waiting to hear back from current insurers- or rather the company assigned by them. He's gone back to them to discuss what previous insurers have provided to him, which makes me think hes not fully confident in his opinion and his position.
Edit, to further add to the fun, our cottage is the end run of a terrace block of several cottages.
Our shared party wall neighbour, and their neighbour have also noted considerable cracking and movment between the juncition of their original and extended properties...
Edited by tommobot on Tuesday 6th September 10:29
mod edit to remove N&S
Lotobear said:
...what width is the crack at the top and the bottom and do you have photo of the bottom as well?
Its probably 6 or 7mm at the top and shut at the bottom..
Im not sure of the relevance of it, but I have a suspiscion the stone wall has surely been rebuilt at some point, though I have no actually proof of this.
Looking at the coursing (especially in the photo above) in the centre of the wall the arrangment of stones is completely out of whack with the rest of the properties in the area.
Edited by tommobot on Tuesday 6th September 11:55
Based upon those two photos (only) there has been or is some ongoing differential movement at the junction between the extension and original building but, and without wishing to appear dismissive of your understandable concerns, that is not a significant crack width over that sort of height at least not at this stage. It may well be seasonal due to the very dry summer and you may find it that it re closes to some degree when the ground re hydrates
Insurers will almost certainly recommend monitoring a crack like that to see if it's progressive before and if they decide to authorise any repairs and typically they will want to do this over at least full season.
...but I may be proved wrong!
Insurers will almost certainly recommend monitoring a crack like that to see if it's progressive before and if they decide to authorise any repairs and typically they will want to do this over at least full season.
...but I may be proved wrong!
I agree and its prompted me to repeat comments I made on another thread quite recently as it seems this is becoming a commonplace problem
"I worked as Loss Adjuster in the early 1990’s mainly dealing with subsidence caused by successive dry years, involvement in around 500+ claims. I have assisted others recently in claims against insurers. I am based in East Anglia
Although geared to assessing interior damage you could Google BRE digest 251 or The Burland Scale, both include the same information which will confirm this damage is presently at the minor end of the scale.
If your property is built on clay soil, the saturation of the subsoil when wetter conditions return should bring about a reverse of the movement & the crack may close. Do not be too keen to fill it as that may wedge the crack open"
"I worked as Loss Adjuster in the early 1990’s mainly dealing with subsidence caused by successive dry years, involvement in around 500+ claims. I have assisted others recently in claims against insurers. I am based in East Anglia
Although geared to assessing interior damage you could Google BRE digest 251 or The Burland Scale, both include the same information which will confirm this damage is presently at the minor end of the scale.
If your property is built on clay soil, the saturation of the subsoil when wetter conditions return should bring about a reverse of the movement & the crack may close. Do not be too keen to fill it as that may wedge the crack open"
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