Building material on the verge
Discussion
What is the law/situation with regard to building materials, in this case piles of stones, being on the verge outside a property.
We are having the small drystone retaining wall at the front of our house rebuilt, which as a rolling process involves stripping out 20ft of wall, and then building it back up again, and moving along the wall at about 20ft per week, with occasional weeks where the guy is on another job.
Through we have made very sure that at all times no stone is placed on the tarmac road surface, only on the grass/earth verge between the road and the wall, on which their is often a car or two including our own parked. The stone sticks out less than the neatest of parked cars, and has always been protected by a men-at-work sign and good condition cones, provided by the waller we have contracted to do the work.
Don't want to get anyone in any trouble, least ourselves, but have now had a letter from the council saying they have noted 'building materials on the highway' and requested we remove them of face a fine.
Daniel
We are having the small drystone retaining wall at the front of our house rebuilt, which as a rolling process involves stripping out 20ft of wall, and then building it back up again, and moving along the wall at about 20ft per week, with occasional weeks where the guy is on another job.
Through we have made very sure that at all times no stone is placed on the tarmac road surface, only on the grass/earth verge between the road and the wall, on which their is often a car or two including our own parked. The stone sticks out less than the neatest of parked cars, and has always been protected by a men-at-work sign and good condition cones, provided by the waller we have contracted to do the work.
Don't want to get anyone in any trouble, least ourselves, but have now had a letter from the council saying they have noted 'building materials on the highway' and requested we remove them of face a fine.
Daniel
Equus said:
Yes, aware the verge forms part of the highway, should have said.That's a good information page, in terms of the requirement to fence and light it, and that the fine is £10/day which fits with the £70/week they have claimed. Also that they can remove the materials, although the letter we have mentioned nothing about removal of materials. Given it is locally reclaimed sandstone drywalling stone, much of it from the original wall, loss of the material would be far more problem than any fine.
It's got cones and is under a streetlight.... but no fence or lighting of its own, and obviously we have not applied for a road occupation licence, nor do we personally hold a public liability insurance certificate for it, although our contractor does have public liability insurance, which may or may not cover material on a highway.
Are you able to give any indication of the costs of obtaining such a license and or insurance?
It terms of the grand scheme of things, and the time frames involved, £70/week is fairly manageable and will will likely have completed the job in 2-4 weeks time.
Obviously makes no difference, but it's a quiet residential lane, with in effect no through traffic, neighbours have being nothing short of positive and full of praise for the work we are carrying out restoring the wall which is fast becoming a focal point of the area.
Daniel
I had the same problem when having some work done at my place down in Wiltshire a couple of years back. The guy carrying out the work knew about the need for a licence, so we applied for one in advance. The work was put back twice as it took an absolute age to get the licence. I hate to think what the waiting time could be under the current circumstances. Of course, your local council may be better! 
I think I'd apply for a licence ASAP, get the guy to finish off the current bit and the wait.
I think I'd apply for a licence ASAP, get the guy to finish off the current bit and the wait.
As said, at £70/week the fee is nominal, we're currently also on the hook for £120/day for his time, £200 for the skip, etc.
He has liability insurance we confirmed that, so if that is likely to also cover the material on the highway requirements happy days.
Maybe we apply for it, and just play it all by ear, might get us off the hook for the fee (unlikely) or at least reduced the likelihood of them taking the material way without letting us know!
Daniel
He has liability insurance we confirmed that, so if that is likely to also cover the material on the highway requirements happy days.
Maybe we apply for it, and just play it all by ear, might get us off the hook for the fee (unlikely) or at least reduced the likelihood of them taking the material way without letting us know!
Daniel
Equus said:
Was it not his responsibility as contractor to arrange the necessary licence?
No it wasnt really, its a semi informal agreement, where by I am doing the stripping out and arranging for the materials etc as well as taking down and skipping the internal drive way returns which are faced up sandstone and concrete mess. He is then re building the wall using the provided materials on a day/meter rate.Daniel
Edited by dhutch on Thursday 2nd July 13:30
Alucidnation said:
Surely you must have plenty of room on your drive?
The front drive, tightish for 2 cars, is fairly full with a 8 yard skip and another 5 ton or so of stone for the drive returns, plus room to work replacing the driveway returns to match the front wall. We have a back drive as well and with some rearranging could likely get all of the material we have onto it, but obviously at about 600kg/m lugging 20ft of wall 70m there and back again ten times is low on the priority list!Equus said:
You might want to consider, in that case - because it's not inconceivable that Highways will take an interest - who is responsible for CDM, and whether the appropriate documentation is in place, before you raise your head above the parapet any further.
CDM? Google suggests; Construction (Design and Management) Regulations 2015?It's a 4ft high garden wall, striping out an very tired old drystone wall and replacing it with a new drystone wall, how much (if any?) documentation would they be expecting? I am not aware of such documents, however it may well be that they existing with our waller.
It is believed the existing wall dates from 1940's, when we presume the original railings where purloined for the war effort.
Obviously I would much rather not create any more issues for myself or our waller than strictly necessary!
Daniel
dhutch said:
CDM? Google suggests; Construction (Design and Management) Regulations 2015?
It's a 4ft high garden wall, striping out an very tired old drystone wall and replacing it with a new drystone wall, how much (if any?) documentation would they be expecting? I am not aware of such documents, however it may well be that they existing with our waller.
As a domestic client you will normally be exempt the usual 'client' duties (they devolve upon the Principal Contractor); similarly if you are doing the whole job yourself as a DIY project, you are entirely exempt from CDM and are free to kill yourself and as many others as you like. It's a 4ft high garden wall, striping out an very tired old drystone wall and replacing it with a new drystone wall, how much (if any?) documentation would they be expecting? I am not aware of such documents, however it may well be that they existing with our waller.
It gets messy when you actively manage and/or involve yourself in the project, employing direct labour, however, as you then potentially put yourself into the Principal Contractor role (one of the legal requirements of which is that you must be 'competent' (ie. have an understanding of the Regulations, among other things), and by asking the question you've just asked, you've pretty much just disqualified yourself!
Summary of duties is HERE and the duties of the Principal Contractor (whether that's you, because you're giving the orders, or your waller, because he's the 'competent professional') are HERE.
The information required is proportionate to the scale of the project (but in your case would have included documenting the hazards involved with working in, and storing material on, the public highway verge, which is why it's not inconceivable that Highways could ask to see relevant documentation). THIS PDF may be helpful.
Edited by Equus on Thursday 2nd July 15:33
Ok, sounds reasonable.
Is DIY work exempt even if you are storing your materials on the highway....?
I will mention it to our waller and get up to speed with where is is with it. The way it is working its a bit of a moot point if I and project managing him as a sub-contractor, or I am contracting him to do the work and he is sub-contracting the labouring back to me. Truth me told what managing of the project there has been as between us. But given the management has been 'we'll start at one end and work to the other' and as when we run a bit short on stone I mop up what I can find in the local area via fb/ebay adds and pic it up in the back of ms fiesta 2-3 wheelbarrows full at a time its far closer to DIY than anything else, although obviously you can twist anything how like and there is a small paper trail that I have paid him some monies for this time!
Cheers
Daniel
Is DIY work exempt even if you are storing your materials on the highway....?
I will mention it to our waller and get up to speed with where is is with it. The way it is working its a bit of a moot point if I and project managing him as a sub-contractor, or I am contracting him to do the work and he is sub-contracting the labouring back to me. Truth me told what managing of the project there has been as between us. But given the management has been 'we'll start at one end and work to the other' and as when we run a bit short on stone I mop up what I can find in the local area via fb/ebay adds and pic it up in the back of ms fiesta 2-3 wheelbarrows full at a time its far closer to DIY than anything else, although obviously you can twist anything how like and there is a small paper trail that I have paid him some monies for this time!
Cheers
Daniel
dhutch said:
Is DIY work exempt even if you are storing your materials on the highway....?
It's exempt from CDM. That doesn't mean that you're exempt from the requirement for a Highways licence or other legislation though (which for the avoidance of doubt means that you can't really kill as many people as you like!).
Equus said:
dhutch said:
Is DIY work exempt even if you are storing your materials on the highway....?
It's exempt from CDM. That doesn't mean that you're exempt from the requirement for a Highways licence or other legislation though (which for the avoidance of doubt means that you can't really kill as many people as you like!).
So at very most at the moment any mention of paying a man to do some of the walling is best kept under our hats! Not that I am planning to even contact the council today.
Will speak to the waller first, get his take on it, and an estimation of when we are likely to have all material off the verge, and take it from there.
I guess the choices are along the lines of:
a) Do nothing at all for a bit and see how it goes from here, might take them a fortnight to re-inspect....
b) Contact them in a vague and nondescript way now or in a few days time, acknowledging the letter and saying we will remove the material shortly. Grovelling in a semi-professional but nondescript fashion explaining your state of ignorance as to the requirements. No fixed time lines mentioned or committed to!
c) Contact them and give a date of when it will be gone by, even if that is over the 48hour, and see what they make of that.
d) Contact them and ask for a retrospective licence.
As said, while slightly annoying, as long as it does not escalate wildly I am quite happy to pay £70/week till we finish the project, although wouldn't phrase it quite like that too them. However if another way of going about it is better than that might be worth exploring.
The letter gives us 48 hours to remove, and states a further inspection will be conducted to assess, and that failure to remove will result in a fine of £70/week. There is no contact phone number, but a highwaysmaintenance@ .gov.uk email address if further information is required.
I can also do some work to tidy it up and or reduce it a bit, although it is already intentionally reasonably tidy to ensure good relashopshop with neighbours. I was not aware of a requirement for a licence to place items on the verge, nor did I expect it to be an issue as its less in the way than a car, although I am also aware the verge is part of the highway.
It says the have identified it during routine highway inspections, however given its the sleepy end of a nearly dead end road, I think it is far more likely that the bloke at the end of the mini 5-house culdesac at the end of our road who goes around reporting non compliant fences and sicking passive aggressive notices on cars parked "within xft of the junction, in contravention of highways act###" has tipped them off about it, like the officious arse he is
Cheers
Daniel
Mr Pointy said:
If the licence is £70 a week & the fine is £70 a week it sounds like you might as well let them fine you! Maybe they won't back date the fine so it will be more cost effective.
Indeed. I cant find anything about building materials on a highway, on the local Council website, but have found the below fees and information, and a host of other related but less relevant info for a-boards, mewps, etc.Scaffolding and hoarding
Anyone intending to erect a scaffold or hoarding, which encroaches on to a public road or pavement, is required to obtain a licence. Applications will be based upon the scale and extent of works being undertaken and the existing site, highway and traffic conditions.
A licence can be refused in the interests of public or highway safety. It is an offence to erect a scaffold or hoarding on the footway or highway without a licence.
Up to 7 days......................£80 per property
7 days to 1 month............£135 per property
1 month to 3 months........£215 per property
3 months to 6 months......£270 per property
Container/welfare .............Max 3 months..£70.00 each (28 days) £35.00 each further 28 days
Skip permit
Normal or full size skips (6 tonne or above).......£40 for up to 14 days
Storage containers
Up to 6m x 2.4 m ...........................................£75 for up to 28 days £37.50 for a further 28 days
Between 6m x 2.4 m and 12m x 2.4 m..........£150 for up to 28 days £75.00 for a further 28 days
Temporary events permit
Application fee........£25.00
Permit fee..............£206.00
Daniel
My experience of council enforcement officers is that when you offer to pay the fine up front, because you can't be arsed doing whatever is required to be compliant they take a fairly dim view 
...then start digging a bit further into the regs to see what they can really go to town on.
...then start digging a bit further into the regs to see what they can really go to town on.
I'm certainly not going to offer to pay it up front!
But I might send a nice email saying I wasn't aware of the regs, will move it as quickly as practicable, and if they would like to talk about it in more detail I am happy to meet them at the address to discuss it.
And then finish the job in the next few weeks and tidy up well afterwards.
Daniel
But I might send a nice email saying I wasn't aware of the regs, will move it as quickly as practicable, and if they would like to talk about it in more detail I am happy to meet them at the address to discuss it.
And then finish the job in the next few weeks and tidy up well afterwards.
Daniel
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