Discussion
kazste said:
first off surely £100 for a pair of clown fish is a bit pricey, there are differences in a "pair" of clown fish and "paired up" clownfish. for it to be anywhere near this price i would expect best quality "paired up" fish. This is where they are partnered up and have proved happy to be living together. As stated before marine fish are a lot more difficult to keep happy and alive than tropical fish so if it is just going to be a hobby and not an obsetion then i would suggest really thinking as to whether it is worth it. you will need various extra pieces of equipment such as a protein skimmer (at least £150 for a decent one) preferably a wave machine to replicate natural habitat, for clown fish you will need good quality live rock also quite expensive and difficult to know if your getting a good piece or not until later.
Most people like marine either because they want starfish,shrimp and such like or because of the bright and lively colours in comparison to most tropical fish. If you are of the second type then i would suggest you look at a tank full of Lake Malawi Cichlids as can look very spectacular as very brightly coloured tropical fish which are very easy to look after, (would still need to get rid of the other tropical fish as they are evil little b"stards to all but themselves.
If you still want clownfish then read lots of books get used to having the tropical tank to make sure you want the effort and then go for it, it's all good to ask for advice but as long as you can provide a good environment for the fish then you onlu live once so go for it.
Just let us know how it's going, and good luck.
thanx good read. i wouldnt just jump into anything, understand experiance is a key factor, thanx for all the infoMost people like marine either because they want starfish,shrimp and such like or because of the bright and lively colours in comparison to most tropical fish. If you are of the second type then i would suggest you look at a tank full of Lake Malawi Cichlids as can look very spectacular as very brightly coloured tropical fish which are very easy to look after, (would still need to get rid of the other tropical fish as they are evil little b"stards to all but themselves.
If you still want clownfish then read lots of books get used to having the tropical tank to make sure you want the effort and then go for it, it's all good to ask for advice but as long as you can provide a good environment for the fish then you onlu live once so go for it.
Just let us know how it's going, and good luck.
A friend of mine had a marine tank about the size you mention. It was very successfull but she does have a degree in water treatment (currently assessing most of the water treatment sites in the whole of scotland) She also had another tank the same size with just hermit crabs and a few other bits in, a tall (6') tank with plants in it and something else I forget. The point is that all the extras were to keep the water in the main tank at the right levels (she didn't want her mum to have to be constantly measuring and adjusting the levels in the tank manually)
Basically to create a tropical fish environment is hard enough but for marine fish it is a whole new world of pain!
Beautiful as they are you wouldn't want to spend a lot of money only to slowly torture a load of fish to death?
Basically to create a tropical fish environment is hard enough but for marine fish it is a whole new world of pain!
Beautiful as they are you wouldn't want to spend a lot of money only to slowly torture a load of fish to death?
Risotto said:
Has anyone ever tried a cold water marine tank? Is it too difficult to keep the temperature low enough? A British rock pool tank would look quite good.
You could do it I guess, no reason why not, the temp would be easy enough as you could use a water heater/chiller combo, the water chemistry would be as hard to get right though, I'm sure people have done it before but for the effort, you'd probably want the bright colours of the tropical marines.Nolar Dog said:
Discus. 
see you have to ruin the tone don't you, here i am thinking of cheaper alternative and you come up with that!! really what would your mother say if she knew you where suggesting someone gets into such an expensive hobby when others are trying to help the chap;)I keep discus still quite difficult to keep for someone new, tank size would seriously limit the amount possible as tank does not sound too big would guess at aroun 200 litres, would need at least an external tank plus unless your looking at donkey discus would be £60 plus per fish and again more than likely mean you getting rid of the other fish as most other fish will pick on themor stress them out.
my smiley is missing and cant get it back so want to make sure its clear im joking!
Edited by kazste on Friday 6th February 16:45
Sorry to be pedantic, but most marine fish kept in an aquarium are tropical fish. The 'tropical' refers to the temperature, therefore you either have freshwater tropical or marine tropical.
ETA: Unless you have coldwater and then the same applies!
ETA: Unless you have coldwater and then the same applies!
Edited by Ganglandboss on Friday 6th February 17:02
I've kept tropical freshwater fish for 12 years and have always been intrigued with marine fish keeping.
Decided to give it a go 5 weeks ago and bought a 180 litre bow fronted tank.
I have spent just over 1K and haven't even stocked it with fish yet, clean up crew in at the moment.
Read alot of books beforehand and realised its not going to be easy even with the tropical experience.
Basically you throw all the tropical methods out of the window with marine.
To answer your question tho, its about osmosis and the salt concentration by diffusion.
Stick with the tropical for now and gain as much knowledge and experience with maintenance and cleaning etc.
Good luck.
Decided to give it a go 5 weeks ago and bought a 180 litre bow fronted tank.
I have spent just over 1K and haven't even stocked it with fish yet, clean up crew in at the moment.
Read alot of books beforehand and realised its not going to be easy even with the tropical experience.
Basically you throw all the tropical methods out of the window with marine.
To answer your question tho, its about osmosis and the salt concentration by diffusion.
Stick with the tropical for now and gain as much knowledge and experience with maintenance and cleaning etc.
Good luck.
One of the reasons a lot of people prefer marine is the vivid colours. If you have a proper look around there are some very nice tropical fish. I think every tropical tank benefits from a Siamese Fighting Fish (one only though or their pretty fins will soon look like a caterpillar has been at the) such as the one below.
kazste said:
Lake Malawi Cichlids as can look very spectacular as very brightly coloured tropical fish which are very easy to look after, (would still need to get rid of the other tropical fish as they are evil little b"stards to all butincluding themselves.
EFA.They're about as vividly coloured as freshwater fish get, though maybe not quite as HD as marines.
These are some of ours:
I ran a marine trop tank for years with no problems. Never lost a fish, apart from the time when my anenomies bred and filled the tank, making it difficult for the fish to swim without getting stung. So I dropped a couple of pink shrimps to cull them. Sadly, the shrimps also culled my Goby - and he was the guy who maintained the coral sand. AARGH - conflict of interest - he lost!
I spent a lot of money setting up the filtration in overkill mode - you cannot over-filter marine tanks IMO. I chose not to use undergravel filtration as it is a pain should it ever go wrong or toxic. I used very high power filters in huge canisters through full length, opposed top of tank spray bars, with another slow filter running through a UV filter to kill protozoa before they had chance to get at the fish. The tank also had a protein skimmer.
Minimal water changes (max 5%) with reverse osmosised water (get the crap we like but fish don't out of the water first) and sea mix (you can buy it) kept the ammonia to acceptable levels, and basically it ran itself. I bought a little water testing kit which took about 2 mins a week to make sure all was ok.
I did not keep "fragile" fish. Basically, very pretty but fairly (in marine terms) hardy clownfish, angels, surgeons, gobies, cleaner fish etc, all of whom had a role in the tank's biology etc. I am sure I could have killed a lot of delicate coral feeders had I bought them, but it is IMO very cruel to keep them. They live in such a vast area of water in the wild, you could drop an oil tanker in their home waters, and they wouldn't notice. Hence they have no immune system - they do not need it as nothing ever changes - it does in a tank, way beyond their tolerance level.
Speak to your local marine aquarist. When I started, I had £2,000 of hardware in one tank, and two fish worth £10 for the first 6-8 weeks to seed the tank with required bacteria. Then I slowly built up my stock to reasonable levels, keeping the water quality in check. Do not start a fresh tank and load it with fish right away. They will all die quickly and horribly from toxins - marine or freshwater.
The biggest challenge to marine trops is in the summer. A relatively small area of water, such as my old tank, heats up pretty quickly compared to their natural habitat. The fish do not like temperature changes, and warm water holds less oxygen than cold, so a lot of work on airpumps to keep oxygen levels up for a couple of weeks in the UK summer. You can get coolers, but they are expensive and frankly, in extreme cases I just dropped in a sealed bag of ice cubes which did the same job in bringing the temp down a few degrees over a period of time.
Successful marine tanks are all about up front investment in the right equipment, and reasonably frequent monitoring. If you do that properly, and make sure that conditions do not get out of tolerance for your fish, you will have a beautiful, healthy living picture that will by-and-large look after itself.
Freshwater trops are so much easier, but make sure that once you are stocked, you quarantine any new fish going into the tank. Most of the suppliers seem to provide highly disease ridden freshwater tropical fish IMO. Do not buy from the pet stores, buy from a specialist and stick to the same one if possible.
For fresh or marine, if you go on holiday, wrap daily parcels of food in the right quantities, and insist that they are fed in that manner. The biggest threat to water quality is over feeding - so prepare your 7 / 14 parcels of food in individual tin foil packages before you go so your sitter will not make the big mistake. Ensure that the person knows that if they miss a day or two, still only put one package in - and that they can hide the others if they feel guilty about forgetting a day or two. Best to have hungry fish than poisoned fish.
Buy a bloody good book too so that you understand the fish types, requirements and compatibilities.
Good luck.
ETA - the clown fish are way over priced at £100. With marine fish, I used to buy them as juveniles, and watch them change as they mature. The difference in colours of many marine species between juvenile and adult is startling, and they are cheaper to buy young.
I spent a lot of money setting up the filtration in overkill mode - you cannot over-filter marine tanks IMO. I chose not to use undergravel filtration as it is a pain should it ever go wrong or toxic. I used very high power filters in huge canisters through full length, opposed top of tank spray bars, with another slow filter running through a UV filter to kill protozoa before they had chance to get at the fish. The tank also had a protein skimmer.
Minimal water changes (max 5%) with reverse osmosised water (get the crap we like but fish don't out of the water first) and sea mix (you can buy it) kept the ammonia to acceptable levels, and basically it ran itself. I bought a little water testing kit which took about 2 mins a week to make sure all was ok.
I did not keep "fragile" fish. Basically, very pretty but fairly (in marine terms) hardy clownfish, angels, surgeons, gobies, cleaner fish etc, all of whom had a role in the tank's biology etc. I am sure I could have killed a lot of delicate coral feeders had I bought them, but it is IMO very cruel to keep them. They live in such a vast area of water in the wild, you could drop an oil tanker in their home waters, and they wouldn't notice. Hence they have no immune system - they do not need it as nothing ever changes - it does in a tank, way beyond their tolerance level.
Speak to your local marine aquarist. When I started, I had £2,000 of hardware in one tank, and two fish worth £10 for the first 6-8 weeks to seed the tank with required bacteria. Then I slowly built up my stock to reasonable levels, keeping the water quality in check. Do not start a fresh tank and load it with fish right away. They will all die quickly and horribly from toxins - marine or freshwater.
The biggest challenge to marine trops is in the summer. A relatively small area of water, such as my old tank, heats up pretty quickly compared to their natural habitat. The fish do not like temperature changes, and warm water holds less oxygen than cold, so a lot of work on airpumps to keep oxygen levels up for a couple of weeks in the UK summer. You can get coolers, but they are expensive and frankly, in extreme cases I just dropped in a sealed bag of ice cubes which did the same job in bringing the temp down a few degrees over a period of time.
Successful marine tanks are all about up front investment in the right equipment, and reasonably frequent monitoring. If you do that properly, and make sure that conditions do not get out of tolerance for your fish, you will have a beautiful, healthy living picture that will by-and-large look after itself.
Freshwater trops are so much easier, but make sure that once you are stocked, you quarantine any new fish going into the tank. Most of the suppliers seem to provide highly disease ridden freshwater tropical fish IMO. Do not buy from the pet stores, buy from a specialist and stick to the same one if possible.
For fresh or marine, if you go on holiday, wrap daily parcels of food in the right quantities, and insist that they are fed in that manner. The biggest threat to water quality is over feeding - so prepare your 7 / 14 parcels of food in individual tin foil packages before you go so your sitter will not make the big mistake. Ensure that the person knows that if they miss a day or two, still only put one package in - and that they can hide the others if they feel guilty about forgetting a day or two. Best to have hungry fish than poisoned fish.
Buy a bloody good book too so that you understand the fish types, requirements and compatibilities.
Good luck.
ETA - the clown fish are way over priced at £100. With marine fish, I used to buy them as juveniles, and watch them change as they mature. The difference in colours of many marine species between juvenile and adult is startling, and they are cheaper to buy young.
Edited by SeeFive on Friday 6th February 17:40
kazste said:
Nolar Dog said:
Discus.
see you have to ruin the tone don't you, here i am thinking of cheaper alternative and you come up with that!! really what would your mother say if she knew you where suggesting someone gets into such an expensive hobby when others are trying to help the chap;)I keep discus still quite difficult to keep for someone new, tank size would seriously limit the amount possible as tank does not sound too big would guess at aroun 200 litres, would need at least an external tank plus unless your looking at donkey discus would be £60 plus per fish and again more than likely mean you getting rid of the other fish as most other fish will pick on themor stress them out.
my smiley is missing and cant get it back so want to make sure its clear im joking!
Edited by kazste on Friday 6th February 16:45
What type of clowns are they? They could be a rare pair of wild caught clowns (perhaps Tomatoe clowns) and so could easily fetch more than £100 a pair.
However, if you want to keep marines, then get reading, then read some more. I can give you a few websites to look at as well, and I suggest you visit at least one person with a marine tank to see how it goes, what kit is required, and the expense. A smaller tank is harder to maintain (stability is key) but obviously cheaper. Basic rule of thumb is to go as large as you can afford.
Then, do you want to keep corals, or just fish? IF fish, which ones?
However, if you want to keep marines, then get reading, then read some more. I can give you a few websites to look at as well, and I suggest you visit at least one person with a marine tank to see how it goes, what kit is required, and the expense. A smaller tank is harder to maintain (stability is key) but obviously cheaper. Basic rule of thumb is to go as large as you can afford.
Then, do you want to keep corals, or just fish? IF fish, which ones?
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