Probate - what should I know?

[The Gauge]

My 80yr old mother is terminally ill and isn't expected to survive past summer. Having played catch up over recent weeks getting stairlifts, equipment and carers etc I want to be ahead of the game if probate is required.

Dad died years ago leaving everything to her. His inheritance tax allowance will have rolled over to her. Her total estate is perhaps worth £600k She has a will leaving everything to my sister, brother and myself. The three of us are attorneys on her Lasting Power of Attorney which I’m using. We don’t anticipate her needing a care home.

I don’t know if probate will apply but are there things we can do now to help when the time comes?

Edited by The Gauge on Tuesday 18th February 08:02

[Mr E]

Sorry to hear about your mum.

Whoever is nominated as executor will need to value the estate and apply for probate. At the point of applying for probate the estate will need to pay the appropriate amount of tax.
The executor then splits the remainder of the estate between the beneficiaries as determined by the will.



To value the estate, most institutions will need a copy of the death certificate and perhaps the will naming the executor. To access significant funds they will want probate (except when paying for the funeral or the IHT bill)



It might be useful to ensure you know where any savings/investments are held, but as long as there’s some paperwork I found the discovery process tolerably awful. Almost all institutions have a specific bereavement line - ring that rather than standard customer service. They have a lot more ability to actually do things.


What was awful was to go through every standing order/subscription and tell disinterested people that my dad was dead. On a wet Tuesday. Over and over again.

This might help
https://www.gov.uk/after-a-death/organisations-you...

[The Gauge]

Thanks, that’s very useful.

Thankfully mum is organised and has a box full of documents for everything financial. I have details of her bank accounts, NS&I accounts, credit card, utility bills and I am managing her current account (via her financial LPA) where her pensions get paid into and her direct debits go out.

She has an assortment of investments via a financial advisor that she’s used for years. He visits her every year to review those investments. I have a separate box of papers for these that I need to look through. I don’t know whether to contact him to pre warn him of her demise?

Maybe I already have all the information I need, but obviously I don’t know what I don’t know, if that makes sense

[Mr E]

Sounds like you have most of what you need.
Do you know where a signed and witnessed Will is?

I’d not worry about “pre-contacting”. Enjoy the time you have with your mum. Probate is a thing that by its very nature can bloody wait.

Edited by Mr E on Tuesday 18th February 08:25

[The Gauge]

Yes, I’m in possession of her will that names my sister, brother and myself as executors and sole beneficiaries, and it has been signed as witnessed by two of her friends. So hopefully the process will be as straightforward as is possible.

What’s the first step with probate? Do the executors have to submit an application form detailing the deceased’s estate, then just wait to see if inheritance tax applies and then authority to proceed with executing the will? Is there a constant need to send off further forms for months on end?

Edited by The Gauge on Tuesday 18th February 08:53

[alscar]

Mr E has given already a lot of helpful information so I’ll try to add without repetition - apologies in advance if I do.
When my Dad passed suddenly no probate was required and my sister and I spent 2 days in his study just getting to grips with everything he had all of which was left to my Mum.
I am currently engaged with a solicitors help ,probate for my Aunt which by comparison is a nightmare !
As long as you have the original will, knowledge of any and all accounts / investments / house deeds / details then you don’t need a solicitor.
The LPA’s lapse on death and at that stage the Executors step in.
Ensure you have more copies than you think you will need of the death certificate.
It is possible to register the death elsewhere other than where she lives.
I would get in touch with the investment chap but be prepared to give him a certified copy of the LPA.
The bereavement team at everyone you need to contact post her passing is a very good tip.
I’m assuming she doesn’t have a car but if she does that Insurance will need addressing.
Insurances in general need looking at.
As per your other thread from what you have said I don’t see how IHT would be due.
House sale ?
As LPA having just knowledge of all of her various accounts will take away a lot of the stress for when the sad day arrives.

[Mr E]

The Gauge said:

.

What’s the first step with probate? Do the executors have to submit an application form detailing the deceased’s estate, then just wait to see if inheritance tax applies and then authority to proceed with executing the will? Is there a constant need to send off further forms for months on end?

Yes. You say “here’s what the estate looks like”. They say “give us money” if needed. Estate pays. Grant of probate is issued. Executor then disposes of the estate as per the will.

Essentially, fill in a IHT400 (and possible friends depending on the estate)

I did the discovery and valuation of the estate and then employed the family solicitors to fill the forms in. It was about a grand I think, but I thought my chances of getting it right first go were probably pretty low. Looking at it now, actually not that hard I think.

[Mr E]

From memory, you have 6 months to ask for probate, after that any tax due is subject to interest.
You have 2 years to vary the will should you wish to (from your description you probably don’t)

Not financial advise. If the house is going to children, and your mother inherited entirely from your father I think her IHT threshold would be in excess of your estimate of the estate.

Edited by Mr E on Tuesday 18th February 09:52

[The Gauge]

Thanks everyone

So as an executor of her will, in order for me to value the estate I need to collate all her investments and banking information. I’m currently in the process of finding that out and I assume for probate I’ll need to know their values for the day of death?

To get those figures will the organisations just need a death certificate and a copy of the will naming me as one of the executors? And do I then fill in the probate form and wait for them to decide if tax needs paying and instruct me to divide up the estate?

Edited by The Gauge on Tuesday 18th February 12:37

[Mr E]

The Gauge said:

Thanks everyone

So as an executor of her will, in order for me to value the estate I need to collate all her investments and banking information. I’m currently in the process of finding that out and I assume for probate I’ll need to know their values for the day of death?

To get those figures will the organisations just need a death certificate and a copy of the will naming me as one of the executors? And do I then fill in the probate form and wait for them to decide if tax needs paying and instruct me to divide up the estate?

Pretty much.
Financial institutions are well versed in providing value on date - you’ll have to jump through some documentation supply steps first to verify you have the right to see the information.

Share values need calculating in a specific fashion, but it’s not hard.

HMRC will calculate the tax and tell you (but you can do it yourself as well). They won’t tell you how to divide the estate, the will does that. Probate just gives the exector the legal rights needed to act.

[Simon Bags]

The Gauge said:

Thanks everyone

So as an executor of her will, in order for me to value the estate I need to collate all her investments and banking information. I’m currently in the process of finding that out and I assume for probate I’ll need to know their values for the day of death?

To get those figures will the organisations just need a death certificate and a copy of the will naming me as one of the executors? And do I then fill in the probate form and wait for them to decide if tax needs paying and instruct me to divide up the estate?

Edited by The Gauge on Tuesday 18th February 12:37

Sorry to hear this, I'm going through exactly the same, Mother passed away 2017 and Father given not long to go. It's heartbreaking so you have my sympathies.

Simon.

[The Gauge]

Thanks a million. I think I have an understanding now.

It’s been an amazingly stressful time of late fighting to get my mum assessed to start receiving the care and equipment she needs. I ignorantly assumed this just happened, but it doesn’t. But that’s another story for another thread.

Now she’s receiving care it’s given me a moment of calm to be able to think of the next steps that are around the corner, such as planning for probate etc At least I’m now in a better place to approach this. Thanks everyone.

Simon Bags said:

Sorry to hear this, I'm going through exactly the same, Mother passed away 2017 and Father given not long to go. It's heartbreaking so you have my sympathies.

Simon.

Thank you Simon, and my sympathies to you as well. If you ever need to chat about fighting the healthcare system for your father to get any care he needs, please get in touch, I’ll be happy to share my experiences.

[Simon Bags]

The Gauge said:

Thank you Simon, and my sympathies to you as well. If you ever need to chat about fighting the healthcare system for your father to get any care he needs, please get in touch, I’ll be happy to share my experiences.

Cheers Chap. As it happens, today he's being transferred to a really nice Care Home where he'll get the best help and attention. My World has come apart but knowing he's in the best place is a help. 3 weeks ago he was fine, now he's not long to be with us. Trying to sort things out is a nightmare, the Man has a study with Leaver Arch files dating back to 1978 and in there is Deeds, Wills, Pension and Investment papers. I've also the joy of trying to sort out the sale of his Holiday Apartment in Majorca and all that entails. I think my head is about to pop.

Stay safe, thanks for the offer of a chat, means a lot.

Simon.

[alscar]

The Gauge said:

Thanks everyone

So as an executor of her will, in order for me to value the estate I need to collate all her investments and banking information. I’m currently in the process of finding that out and I assume for probate I’ll need to know their values for the day of death?

Edited by The Gauge on Tuesday 18th February 12:37

It will be the value of all her shares and bank accounts on the date of death that counts.
It is possible that when the shares are sold ( presumably sometime afterwards ) that additional CGT and income tax may also be payable post probate numbers.
If she only has ISA investments then no additional tax should be due.
The other things I forgot to mention earlier was that any Pension or Attendance allowance received also needs to be “ cancelled “ with DWP.
Banks etc will freeze the accounts once notified but receipts can still be accepted into them until they are fully closed.

[The Leaper]

I have been an executor maybe 7 times now. Currently, I am a joint executor for my friend’s estate who died last year. My advice to the OP is to worry about things later but prepare as much as possible now.

Here’s some general guidance based on my past and current experiences.

1. It seems that you have the opportunity to try and get your Mother’s financial affairs etc into good order before you become her executor. Try and get as much info as possible together and, ideally, in spreadsheet form so you can easily see the total picture. Don’t forget liabilities: bills for such things as utilities, insurances, all regular payments etc. There’s nothing worse than spending hours/days trying to find paperwork for everything.

2. For a probate application, you need to have fully assessed all your Mum’s assets and liabilities, so you will need to contact banks, investment providers, pension payments sources, etc, any insurance company regarding life assurance, get a valuation of any property, and also amounts due to all service providers etc, in order to arrive at a valuation of net assets (total assets less total liabilities as at the date of death).

3. The probate application form is PAP1. There are numerous associated forms too all designed to assist with PAP1 completion. IHT must be paid before getting probate, although in your Mum’s case it looks like there will be no IHT liability. The IHT form is IHT400.

4. Probate is taking up to 18 weeks, apparently. In the case of my current executorship, IHT forms were sent 10 December 2024, we applied for probate on 9 January, and the Grant of Probate is dated 19 January, received 11 February, amazingly swift!

5. Make sure you get enough copies of the death certificate: 10 should be enough.

6. Once you have the Grant of Probate, you must contact all the sources of assets and arrange for them to release their value. This includes selling any property and you are likely to engage a solicitor for this purpose. As for liabilities you can start paying these off. To do all these things you’ll need an executor’s bank account, often best with the local branch to you of the deceased’s bank. Note that you will need to be at that bank branch in person to open the account: they can tell you all the formalities to open the account before you meet them.

7. Once you are confident you have received the value of ALL the assets and paid ALL liabilities including estate fees/costs etc, you can think about distributing specific bequests (if any), then the remaining estate value to the residual dependents.

8. At the end of the process you must prepare the formal accounts as regards the administration of your Mum’s estate. This can be straightforward or complex depending on the type of assets etc. Generally, what’s requires in its simplest form is:

a: a statement of assets and liabilities at the date of death, the balance of which is the net value of the estate at the date of death,

b: a capital account, which shows all the changes in asset and liability values since the date of death during the administration of the estate,

c. a distribution account which will show the bottom line of A & B which becomes the amount available for distribution, and then showing how the estate has been distributed for each special bequest, and then to each residual beneficiary, with a zero balance.

A copy of the accounts should be sent to each residual beneficiary.

oOo

I hope this helps. Being an executor is rewarding IMO and may appear daunting, but it is all logical and straightforward if you organise yourself well, and Mum’s records are in good order.

R.

[The Gauge]

Simon Bags said:

Cheers Chap. As it happens, today he's being transferred to a really nice Care Home where he'll get the best help and attention. My World has come apart but knowing he's in the best place is a help. 3 weeks ago he was fine, now he's not long to be with us. Trying to sort things out is a nightmare, the Man has a study with Leaver Arch files dating back to 1978 and in there is Deeds, Wills, Pension and Investment papers. I've also the joy of trying to sort out the sale of his Holiday Apartment in Majorca and all that entails. I think my head is about to pop.

Stay safe, thanks for the offer of a chat, means a lot.

Simon.

Good to hear he's now getting the care he deserves. Like myself (now that my mother has carers visiting), you can now return to being his son who visits him rather than his carer, which will be good for you both.

[The Gauge]

alscar said:

It will be the value of all her shares and bank accounts on the date of death that counts.
It is possible that when the shares are sold ( presumably sometime afterwards ) that additional CGT and income tax may also be payable post probate numbers.
If she only has ISA investments then no additional tax should be due.
The other things I forgot to mention earlier was that any Pension or Attendance allowance received also needs to be “ cancelled “ with DWP.
Banks etc will freeze the accounts once notified but receipts can still be accepted into them until they are fully closed.

Thank you.

With share prices, if they get sold a few days after the day of death, and if the share price has changed since the day of death, do they still pay the value relevant to the day of death, or the day they are sold?

The Leaper said:

I have been an executor maybe 7 times now. Currently, I am a joint executor for my friend’s estate who died last year. My advice to the OP is to worry about things later but prepare as much as possible now.

Here’s some general guidance based on my past and current experiences.

1. It seems that you have the opportunity to try and get your Mother’s financial affairs etc into good order before you become her executor. Try and get as much info as possible together and, ideally, in spreadsheet form so you can easily see the total picture. Don’t forget liabilities: bills for such things as utilities, insurances, all regular payments etc. There’s nothing worse than spending hours/days trying to find paperwork for everything.

2. For a probate application, you need to have fully assessed all your Mum’s assets and liabilities, so you will need to contact banks, investment providers, pension payments sources, etc, any insurance company regarding life assurance, get a valuation of any property, and also amounts due to all service providers etc, in order to arrive at a valuation of net assets (total assets less total liabilities as at the date of death).

3. The probate application form is PAP1. There are numerous associated forms too all designed to assist with PAP1 completion. IHT must be paid before getting probate, although in your Mum’s case it looks like there will be no IHT liability. The IHT form is IHT400.

4. Probate is taking up to 18 weeks, apparently. In the case of my current executorship, IHT forms were sent 10 December 2024, we applied for probate on 9 January, and the Grant of Probate is dated 19 January, received 11 February, amazingly swift!

5. Make sure you get enough copies of the death certificate: 10 should be enough.

6. Once you have the Grant of Probate, you must contact all the sources of assets and arrange for them to release their value. This includes selling any property and you are likely to engage a solicitor for this purpose. As for liabilities you can start paying these off. To do all these things you’ll need an executor’s bank account, often best with the local branch to you of the deceased’s bank. Note that you will need to be at that bank branch in person to open the account: they can tell you all the formalities to open the account before you meet them.

7. Once you are confident you have received the value of ALL the assets and paid ALL liabilities including estate fees/costs etc, you can think about distributing specific bequests (if any), then the remaining estate value to the residual dependents.

8. At the end of the process you must prepare the formal accounts as regards the administration of your Mum’s estate. This can be straightforward or complex depending on the type of assets etc. Generally, what’s requires in its simplest form is:

a: a statement of assets and liabilities at the date of death, the balance of which is the net value of the estate at the date of death,

b: a capital account, which shows all the changes in asset and liability values since the date of death during the administration of the estate,

c. a distribution account which will show the bottom line of A & B which becomes the amount available for distribution, and then showing how the estate has been distributed for each special bequest, and then to each residual beneficiary, with a zero balance.

A copy of the accounts should be sent to each residual beneficiary.

oOo

I hope this helps. Being an executor is rewarding IMO and may appear daunting, but it is all logical and straightforward if you organise yourself well, and Mum’s records are in good order.

R.

Brilliant, that's very useful to know, thank you.

[Mr E]

You won’t be able to sell the shares until you have probate.
You value on the date of death in a slightly complex manner.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/valuing-stocks-and-sha...

[The Leaper]

The Gauge said:

.
With share prices, if they get sold a few days after the day of death, and if the share price has changed since the day of death, do they still pay the value relevant to the day of death, or the day they are sold?

Executors cannot sell the shares, or any thing else for that matter, without getting probate, so it will be months not days before the shares or anything else can be sold. You get the value based on the sale price at the date of sale, not the date of death. You also get dividends paid if any have accrued after death. You need to account for the value at the date of death which has been used to get probate and pay initial IHT at that stage, and then account for any change in value between the date of death and when sold . You'll also need to adjust any earlier IHT calculation to take into account the difference in these values.

R.

[The Gauge]

The Leaper said:

Executors cannot sell the shares, or any thing else for that matter, without getting probate, so it will be months not days before the shares or anything else can be sold. You get the value based on the sale price at the date of sale, not the date of death. You also get dividends paid if any have accrued after death. You need to account for the value at the date of death which has been used to get probate and pay initial IHT at that stage, and then account for any change in value between the date of death and when sold . You'll also need to adjust any earlier IHT calculation to take into account the difference in these values.

R.

Understood. So the value on date of death is relevant for the probate submission, but the price they sell for many weeks later can be used to adjust that value.