"I don't need to self-assess"

"I don't need to self-assess"

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Discussion

Greenmantle

Original Poster:

1,454 posts

115 months

Thursday 7th November
quotequote all
I thought I was alone but reading other threads it seems that it is common for HMRC to send these private messages.

Obviously if I am owed money then I will fill one in irrespective but what do I do if I have a hunch that I owe them?
Its important to stress that my circumstances do not change year on year!

Eric Mc

122,854 posts

272 months

Thursday 7th November
quotequote all
If you THINK you need to declare income and tax to HMRC - then it is your legal obligation to do so. This is the case even if HMRC has sent you a letter saying you don't need to submit a Self Assessment tax return. In reality, HMRC cannot tell for sure whether a person should be completing a tax return or not. They are not clairvoyant.

Greenmantle

Original Poster:

1,454 posts

115 months

Thursday 7th November
quotequote all
Eric Mc said:
If you THINK you need to declare income and tax to HMRC - then it is your legal obligation to do so. This is the case even if HMRC has sent you a letter saying you don't need to submit a Self Assessment tax return. In reality, HMRC cannot tell for sure whether a person should be completing a tax return or not. They are not clairvoyant.
Eric that is absolutely astounding! Thinking if I need to fill in a Self Assessment or not doesn't compute with me. I'm not tax savvy. If all of my earnings are PAYE why should I even spend any time figuring out if I need to fill in an SA or not. HMRC have all the figures not me. So if I don't dwell on whether I need to fill in a tax return then I am safe from prosecution. This HMRC double speak is just utter rubbish!

RicksAlfas

13,645 posts

251 months

Thursday 7th November
quotequote all
Greenmantle said:
Eric that is absolutely astounding! Thinking if I need to fill in a Self Assessment or not doesn't compute with me. I'm not tax savvy. If all of my earnings are PAYE why should I even spend any time figuring out if I need to fill in an SA or not. HMRC have all the figures not me. So if I don't dwell on whether I need to fill in a tax return then I am safe from prosecution. This HMRC double speak is just utter rubbish!
PAYE doesn't take into account any earnings from shares, interest, properties and many other things you may have going on outside of the company payroll.

cliffords

1,804 posts

30 months

Thursday 7th November
quotequote all
I had an email reminding me to fill in myself assessment, at the same time or a couple of days later, I got a letter saying that I did not to need to fill in a self-assessment.
I then got a letter two weeks later saying that I did not need to fill in a self-assessment, and that they had not asked me to do so. All of this completely out of the blue and not instigated in any part by me.

Quite odd

supersport

4,255 posts

234 months

Thursday 7th November
quotequote all
RicksAlfas said:
Greenmantle said:
Eric that is absolutely astounding! Thinking if I need to fill in a Self Assessment or not doesn't compute with me. I'm not tax savvy. If all of my earnings are PAYE why should I even spend any time figuring out if I need to fill in an SA or not. HMRC have all the figures not me. So if I don't dwell on whether I need to fill in a tax return then I am safe from prosecution. This HMRC double speak is just utter rubbish!
PAYE doesn't take into account any earnings from shares, interest, properties and many other things you may have going on outside of the company payroll.
Pensions and various benefits, especially if you are in the £100K bracket and various points upwards.

I suspect since they changed the report limit to £150K they just assume everyone below it doesn't need to anymore, despite reasons why they would have filed before.

Eric Mc

122,854 posts

272 months

Thursday 7th November
quotequote all
HMRC does not have the authority to tell someone not to complete a tax form. The general letter they send out where they say that "you do not need to complete a Self Assessment tax return" also states that the ultimate responsibility for completing one rests with the tax payer and not them.

xyz123

1,025 posts

136 months

Friday 8th November
quotequote all
Eric Mc said:
HMRC does not have the authority to tell someone not to complete a tax form. The general letter they send out where they say that "you do not need to complete a Self Assessment tax return" also states that the ultimate responsibility for completing one rests with the tax payer and not them.
In general true but I thought There were some compulsory scenario. E. G if PAYE income is above 100k then you must file a return due to tapering loss of personsal.Allowance. ?

M11rph

701 posts

28 months

Friday 8th November
quotequote all
Using the SA Checker available on .GOV.UK is a simple first step to take.
https://www.gov.uk/check-if-you-need-tax-return

Muzzer79

11,027 posts

194 months

Friday 8th November
quotequote all
Greenmantle said:
Eric Mc said:
If you THINK you need to declare income and tax to HMRC - then it is your legal obligation to do so. This is the case even if HMRC has sent you a letter saying you don't need to submit a Self Assessment tax return. In reality, HMRC cannot tell for sure whether a person should be completing a tax return or not. They are not clairvoyant.
Eric that is absolutely astounding! Thinking if I need to fill in a Self Assessment or not doesn't compute with me. I'm not tax savvy. If all of my earnings are PAYE why should I even spend any time figuring out if I need to fill in an SA or not. HMRC have all the figures not me. So if I don't dwell on whether I need to fill in a tax return then I am safe from prosecution.
How are HMRC supposed to know, for example, how much money you have in savings that you need to pay tax on?

This has nothing to do with PAYE.

Greenmantle

Original Poster:

1,454 posts

115 months

Friday 8th November
quotequote all
Muzzer79 said:
Greenmantle said:
Eric Mc said:
If you THINK you need to declare income and tax to HMRC - then it is your legal obligation to do so. This is the case even if HMRC has sent you a letter saying you don't need to submit a Self Assessment tax return. In reality, HMRC cannot tell for sure whether a person should be completing a tax return or not. They are not clairvoyant.
Eric that is absolutely astounding! Thinking if I need to fill in a Self Assessment or not doesn't compute with me. I'm not tax savvy. If all of my earnings are PAYE why should I even spend any time figuring out if I need to fill in an SA or not. HMRC have all the figures not me. So if I don't dwell on whether I need to fill in a tax return then I am safe from prosecution.
How are HMRC supposed to know, for example, how much money you have in savings that you need to pay tax on?

This has nothing to do with PAYE.
OK maybe I shouldn't have used just the word PAYE.
What I wanted to convey is that my tax affairs are simple and straightforward.
For arguments sake PAYE and SAVINGS.

In my defence some of you are being a little obtuse.
For example HMRC does know exactly how much interest you have earnt in the tax year from any type of savings account since that data is shared with the HMRC.

HMRC have a duty to deliver clear and concise communications since they are probably at the top of the tree when it comes to public bodies. Therefore it is very important that they lead by example.

Lastly its no skin off their nose if they actually don't send the email and let everyone keep sending trivial tax returns. I know that was the thought of Gordon Brown. Its only going to cost them a few more CPU cycles since there is no human intervention. Obviously if they are paying way over the odds for processing this then I shouldn't be left in limbo due to their foolishness.

Franco5

344 posts

66 months

Friday 8th November
quotequote all
cliffords said:
I had an email reminding me to fill in myself assessment, at the same time or a couple of days later, I got a letter saying that I did not to need to fill in a self-assessment.
I then got a letter two weeks later saying that I did not need to fill in a self-assessment, and that they had not asked me to do so. All of this completely out of the blue and not instigated in any part by me.

Quite odd
They are an utter mess which goes for all government departments.

Countdown

41,961 posts

203 months

Friday 8th November
quotequote all
Greenmantle said:
I thought I was alone but reading other threads it seems that it is common for HMRC to send these private messages.

Obviously if I am owed money then I will fill one in irrespective but what do I do if I have a hunch that I owe them?
Its important to stress that my circumstances do not change year on year!
How strong is that "hunch"? How much money have you got coming in which you know (or think) isn't already taxed?

For example if it's just a few quid bank interest then i wouldnt worry about it. OTOH if you've got a side hustle earning £00000's then I'd probably fill one in.

Franco5

344 posts

66 months

Friday 8th November
quotequote all
Muzzer79 said:
How are HMRC supposed to know, for example, how much money you have in savings that you need to pay tax on?

This has nothing to do with PAYE.
https://www.moneyhelper.org.uk/en/savings/types-of-savings/tax-on-savings-and-investments

“How you’re taxed on savings and investments depends on how you usually pay tax:
If you’re employed or receiving a pension:
HMRC will usually change your tax code to take extra tax from your income. This is usually automatic for savings interest, but you’ll need to tell HMRC if you earn between £1,000 and £10,000 in dividend income. “

Eric Mc

122,854 posts

272 months

Friday 8th November
quotequote all
Greenmantle said:
For example HMRC does know exactly how much interest you have earnt in the tax year from any type of savings account since that data is shared with the HMRC.

.
And since the specialinterest allowance and dividend allowance were introduced, HMRC has no system for collecting tax on interest over £1,000 except through Self Assessment.

It's called "unintended consequences" and it happens all the time in UK taxation.

gangzoom

6,765 posts

222 months

Friday 8th November
quotequote all
xyz123 said:
In general true but I thought There were some compulsory scenario. E. G if PAYE income is above 100k then you must file a return due to tapering loss of personsal.Allowance. ?
The automatic trigger for self assessment is now at £150k

https://www.gov.uk/income-tax-rates/income-over-10...

Eric Mc

122,854 posts

272 months

Friday 8th November
quotequote all
Not everybody has PAYE taxable income so the ability to collect underpaid tax through the PAYE tax code system is not always an option.

Spare tyre

10,331 posts

137 months

Friday 8th November
quotequote all
cliffords said:
I had an email reminding me to fill in myself assessment, at the same time or a couple of days later, I got a letter saying that I did not to need to fill in a self-assessment.
I then got a letter two weeks later saying that I did not need to fill in a self-assessment, and that they had not asked me to do so. All of this completely out of the blue and not instigated in any part by me.

Quite odd
Exactly the same here, I think it’s the best of three

Huzzah

27,508 posts

190 months

Friday 8th November
quotequote all
M11rph said:
Using the SA Checker available on .GOV.UK is a simple first step to take.
https://www.gov.uk/check-if-you-need-tax-return
I'm confused, I completed the above and it mentioned £10k in interest and dividends not £1k that people are talking about on here.

Retired
No earnings except private pension and soon state pension, £0-£50k
Interest less than £10k