'snide' £20 note received from Nat West

[grand cherokee]

not going to go into the whole story but i received a 'snide' £20 from Nat West

in error tried to pass it at the local Co-Op today and was detected - thankfully as i live in a small village and they know me they appreciated i was not 'trying it on'!

gave me the note back - its a very good one - i never detected it as it was part of a £600 cash withdrawal

i'm told if i send it to the Bank of England they will 'refund me'?

i'm not going to bother with Nat West as the local sub branch is pretty poor and the proof is never going to be 'proven'

[anonymous-user]

grand cherokee said:

not going to go into the whole story but i received a 'snide' £20 from Nat West

in error tried to pass it at the local Co-Op today and was detected - thankfully as i live in a small village and they know me they appreciated i was not 'trying it on'!

gave me the note back - its a very good one - i never detected it as it was part of a £600 cash withdrawal

i'm told if i send it to the Bank of England they will 'refund me'?

i'm not going to bother with Nat West as the local sub branch is pretty poor and the proof is never going to be 'proven'

The Bank of England will destroy it and you won't get your money back.

The coop person committed an offence giving you the dud note back and your only hope of getting your money back is by taking it back to the Natwest.

[grand cherokee]

sugerbear said:

The Bank of England will destroy it and you won't get your money back.

The coop person committed an offence giving you the dud note back and your only hope of getting your money back is by taking it back to the Natwest.

have checked - its not an offence to give the note back - the shop has no legal right to retain the note

if the shop thinks deliberate fraud is being attempted then they must call the police

whilst reading up on this subject a guy withdrew £400 from Yorkshire Bank on 22 Dec - £180 of which proved to be 'snide' notes!!!!

[Changedmyname]

I have often been given duds, but its hard to check every note passed.
I'm afraid you have to take the hit, just one of those things.

[grand cherokee]

Changedmyname said:

I have often been given duds, but its hard to check every note passed.
I'm afraid you have to take the hit, just one of those things.

fair comment but in the case above - £180 of £400 from a bank was 'snide'!!

banks technology for detection must be poor or non existent?

[anonymous-user]

grand cherokee said:

sugerbear said:

The Bank of England will destroy it and you won't get your money back.

The coop person committed an offence giving you the dud note back and your only hope of getting your money back is by taking it back to the Natwest.

have checked - its not an offence to give the note back - the shop has no legal right to retain the note

I dont agree with you. Passing fake currency is an offence, it isn't specific about who is doing it. Give a receipt and hand it in at the police station. I am suprised the co-op doesn't have a policy to protect its staff.

15 Offences of passing etc. counterfeit notes and coins.

(1)It is an offence for a person—

(a)to pass or tender as genuine any thing which is, and which he knows or believes to be, a counterfeit of a currency note or of a protected coin; or

(b)to deliver to another any thing which is, and which he knows or believes to be, such a counterfeit, intending that the person to whom it is delivered or another shall pass or tender it as genuine.

(2)It is an offence for a person to deliver to another, without lawful authority or excuse, any thing which is, and which he knows or believes to be, a counterfeit of a currency note or of a protected coin.

http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/banknotes/Pages/ret...

[grand cherokee]

sugerbear said:

I dont agree with you. Passing fake currency is an offence, it isn't specific about who is doing it. Give a receipt and hand it in at the police station. I am suprised the co-op doesn't have a policy to protect its staff.

15 Offences of passing etc. counterfeit notes and coins.

(1)It is an offence for a person—

(a)to pass or tender as genuine any thing which is, and which he knows or believes to be, a counterfeit of a currency note or of a protected coin; or

(b)to deliver to another any thing which is, and which he knows or believes to be, such a counterfeit, intending that the person to whom it is delivered or another shall pass or tender it as genuine.

(2)It is an offence for a person to deliver to another, without lawful authority or excuse, any thing which is, and which he knows or believes to be, a counterfeit of a currency note or of a protected coin.

http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/banknotes/Pages/ret...

thanks

all of the offences you quote rely on the word knows'!

are you a solicitor/barrister?

my advice was from the Police and a Bank Manager

why does the co-op need a policy 'to protect its staff'? what are they at risk of/from?

[ralphrj]

grand cherokee said:

fair comment but in the case above - £180 of £400 from a bank was 'snide'!!

banks technology for detection must be poor or non existent?

You need to raise it with your bank.

Was the withdrawal over the counter or from a cash machine?

If it was over the counter then it depends if the banks "recycle" the cash they receive in (I don't know if any of them do this). If so, the dodgy notes may have been deposited by someone earlier and therefore only needed to be good enough to deceive the Teller.

If it was from a cash machine (hole in the wall or the under counter machines) then most (if not all) cash machines are loaded by security firms who have their own sorting centres for processing notes. Sorting centres have note sorting machines with a variety of security features that can check the authenticity of a note as they are counted (including checking the size and thickness of the paper, the 3D printing of 'Bank of England', ultra violet light reflection and even the noise the note makes when flicked).

Either the dodgy notes are really, really good or there is someone on the inside at the sorting centre - either way you need to let the bank know.

[grand cherokee]

ralphrj said:

You need to raise it with your bank.

Was the withdrawal over the counter or from a cash machine?

If it was over the counter then it depends if the banks "recycle" the cash they receive in (I don't know if any of them do this). If so, the dodgy notes may have been deposited by someone earlier and therefore only needed to be good enough to deceive the Teller.

If it was from a cash machine (hole in the wall or the under counter machines) then most (if not all) cash machines are loaded by security firms who have their own sorting centres for processing notes. Sorting centres have note sorting machines with a variety of security features that can check the authenticity of a note as they are counted (including checking the size and thickness of the paper, the 3D printing of 'Bank of England', ultra violet light reflection and even the noise the note makes when flicked).

Either the dodgy notes are really, really good or there is someone on the inside at the sorting centre - either way you need to let the bank know.

thanks

the money was 'over the counter'

seen in isolation and in comparison with a 'real' note you can see its 'different' - the queens head is not absolutely 'sharp'

but counted amongst other notes i'd suggest its pretty much guaranteed to pass scrutiny?

Edited by grand cherokee on Thursday 27th December 11:26

[anonymous-user]

grand cherokee said:

sugerbear said:

I dont agree with you. Passing fake currency is an offence, it isn't specific about who is doing it. Give a receipt and hand it in at the police station. I am suprised the co-op doesn't have a policy to protect its staff.

15 Offences of passing etc. counterfeit notes and coins.

(1)It is an offence for a person—

(a)to pass or tender as genuine any thing which is, and which he knows or believes to be, a counterfeit of a currency note or of a protected coin; or

(b)to deliver to another any thing which is, and which he knows or believes to be, such a counterfeit, intending that the person to whom it is delivered or another shall pass or tender it as genuine.

(2)It is an offence for a person to deliver to another, without lawful authority or excuse, any thing which is, and which he knows or believes to be, a counterfeit of a currency note or of a protected coin.

http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/banknotes/Pages/ret...

thanks

all of the offences you quote rely on the word knows'!

are you a solicitor/barrister?

my advice was from the Police and a Bank Manager

why does the co-op need a policy 'to protect its staff'? what are they at risk of/from?

to quote the OP. [quote]in error tried to pass it at the local Co-Op today and was detected - thankfully as i live in a small village and they know me they appreciated i was not 'trying it on'!

So the checkout person detected it was a fake and gave it back to the customer. That counts as "passing", you can read the act below yourself, head to section 15 (and you can engage the services of a solicitor if you really want).

(you can check the legislation here - http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1981/45

And for reference I am not a solicitor, nor a barrister, but I know how to read and the act it is very clear. I will trump your bank manager, I was a first cashier for 5 years at the bank mentioned in the OP's post. One of my roles was handling couterfeit notes and passing them on to the police, we never returned coutnerfeit notes to customers, but a receipt and subsequent crime number were all that was needed. So all first hand knowledge (and the bank managers I worked for were not specialists in law or counterfeit notes either).

And finally the reason that a shop should have a policy is that it protects the staff from guesswork they heard on the internet from their brothers-in-laws aunties neighbours sister.

The act is very clear, it is an offence to "pass" counterfeit notes (section 15). You dont even need to be 100% sure, its an offence if you "know" or "beleives it to be" fake.

A lot of fakes get passed to the elderly so it isn't a victimless crime and the bank of england dont pass out genuine notes if they receive a fake note.

Edited by sugerbear on Thursday 27th December 11:44

Edited by sugerbear on Thursday 27th December 14:18

[TwigtheWonderkid]

grand cherokee said:

i never detected it as it was part of a £600 cash withdrawal

I would pay it back in to Nat West thru a cashpoint machine as a cash deposit, in the middle of a larger sum of money. Basically, in the same way you got it.

[anonymous-user]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

grand cherokee said:

i never detected it as it was part of a £600 cash withdrawal

I would pay it back in to Nat West thru a cashpoint machine as a cash deposit, in the middle of a larger sum of money. Basically, in the same way you got it.

Great idea.

[grand cherokee]

sugerbear said:

So the checkout person detected it was a fake and gave it back to the customer. That counts as "passing", you can read the act below yourself, head to section 15 (and you can engage the services of a solicitor if you really want).

(you can check the legislation here - http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1981/45)

And for reference I am not a solicitor, nor a barrister, but I know how to read and the act it is very clear. I will trump your bank manager, I was a first cashier for 5 years at the bank mentioned in the OP's post. One of my roles was handling couterfeit notes and passing them on to the police, we never returned coutnerfeit notes to customers, but a receipt and subsequent crime number were all that was needed. So all first hand knowledge (and the bank managers I worked for were not specialists in law or counterfeit notes either).

And finally the reason that a shop should have a policy is that it protects the staff from guesswork they heard on the internet from their brothers-in-laws aunties neighbours sister.

The act is very clear, it is an offence to "pass" counterfeit notes (section 15). You dont even need to be 100% sure, its an offence if you "know" or "beleives it to be" fake.

A lot of fakes get passed to the elderly so it isn't a victimless crime and the bank of england dont pass out genuine notes if they receive a fake note.

Edited by sugerbear on Thursday 27th December 11:44

have now had it confirmed by the Police that you are incorrect or maybe misguided

to cut a very long story short - the shop has nt right to retain the note unless 'intent to defraud' can be proven etc - your quote 'know or believe'

the elderly are no more susceptible than any other sections of society unless the bank select the elderly to pass on 'snide' notes?

we are not talking about notes from street markets but from a bloody BANK!!

[grand cherokee]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

I would pay it back in to Nat West thru a cashpoint machine as a cash deposit, in the middle of a larger sum of money. Basically, in the same way you got it.

seems fair enough to me - give it back to the bank?

[BliarOut]

grand cherokee said:

TwigtheWonderkid said:

I would pay it back in to Nat West thru a cashpoint machine as a cash deposit, in the middle of a larger sum of money. Basically, in the same way you got it.

seems fair enough to me - give it back to the bank?

They may then reject it. Take it back, explain the situation and ask for a replacement. Stand firm if they try to fob you off.

[anonymous-user]

grand cherokee said:

sugerbear said:

So the checkout person detected it was a fake and gave it back to the customer. That counts as "passing", you can read the act below yourself, head to section 15 (and you can engage the services of a solicitor if you really want).

(you can check the legislation here - http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1981/45)

And for reference I am not a solicitor, nor a barrister, but I know how to read and the act it is very clear. I will trump your bank manager, I was a first cashier for 5 years at the bank mentioned in the OP's post. One of my roles was handling couterfeit notes and passing them on to the police, we never returned coutnerfeit notes to customers, but a receipt and subsequent crime number were all that was needed. So all first hand knowledge (and the bank managers I worked for were not specialists in law or counterfeit notes either).

And finally the reason that a shop should have a policy is that it protects the staff from guesswork they heard on the internet from their brothers-in-laws aunties neighbours sister.

The act is very clear, it is an offence to "pass" counterfeit notes (section 15). You dont even need to be 100% sure, its an offence if you "know" or "beleives it to be" fake.

A lot of fakes get passed to the elderly so it isn't a victimless crime and the bank of england dont pass out genuine notes if they receive a fake note.

Edited by sugerbear on Thursday 27th December 11:44

have now had it confirmed by the Police that you are incorrect or maybe misguided

... Dont feed the troll.

[Terminator X]

Offence is to knowingly pass on a fake, OP wasn't aware initially so no offence. Take it back to the bank and explain, high chance they'll give you a straight one imho ... Nowt to lose either way as the note is wortless after all.

TX.

[anonymous-user]

Terminator X said:

Offence is to knowingly pass on a fake, OP wasn't aware initially so no offence.
TX.

Agreed, my point being that the OP might not have known the note was a fake but the person at the till knew it was a fake. They then *passed* it back to the customer. That is where the offence is committed.

here is the legislation again..

15 Offences of passing etc. counterfeit notes and coins.

(1)It is an offence for a person—

(a)to pass or tender as genuine any thing which is, and which he knows or believes to be, a counterfeit of a currency note or of a protected coin;

See above, the offence is to "pass OR tender". The offence may never be prosecuted but the offence is laid out plain and simple. Once you know a note is fake you dont pass it on.

Original link is here.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1981/45

[Jules360]

sugerbear said:

Agreed, my point being that the OP might not have known the note was a fake but the person at the till knew it was a fake. They then *passed* it back to the customer. That is where the offence is committed.

here is the legislation again..

15 Offences of passing etc. counterfeit notes and coins.

(1)It is an offence for a person—

(a)to pass or tender as genuine any thing which is, and which he knows or believes to be, a counterfeit of a currency note or of a protected coin;

See above, the offence is to "pass OR tender". The offence may never be prosecuted but the offence is laid out plain and simple. Once you know a note is fake you dont pass it on.

Original link is here.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1981/45

Are you deliberately missing the point here ? "Passing or tendering" refers to someone trying to spend a note that they know to be fake. Not the act of returning it to someone.

[anonymous-user]

Jules360 said:

sugerbear said:

Agreed, my point being that the OP might not have known the note was a fake but the person at the till knew it was a fake. They then *passed* it back to the customer. That is where the offence is committed.

here is the legislation again..

15 Offences of passing etc. counterfeit notes and coins.

(1)It is an offence for a person—

(a)to pass or tender as genuine any thing which is, and which he knows or believes to be, a counterfeit of a currency note or of a protected coin;

See above, the offence is to "pass OR tender". The offence may never be prosecuted but the offence is laid out plain and simple. Once you know a note is fake you dont pass it on.

Original link is here.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1981/45

Are you deliberately missing the point here ? "Passing or tendering" refers to someone trying to spend a note that they know to be fake. Not the act of returning it to someone.

Are you just being dense? If I pass you a bottle of brown sauce am I trying to spend it? I don't even have to own the bottle of sauce to pass it to you

If you look it doesn't just say "tendering" which is trying to spend, it says "passing OR tendering". Passing is not tendering.

I didn't write the act but as its written it appears to be intended to stop the circulation of the note once someone believes it to be a fake. Fairly simple really and there are no exemptions for allowing the return of notes if they are known to be fake.