Discussion
Yes I can help, I've been buying gold and silver for years.
These are my tips:
- don't consult financial advisors, they are narrow trained and mostly ignorant of basic economics
- don't buy paper derivatives, ie. ETFs, unless you have read the prospectus and are sure they hold the metal (most don't)
- if you take physical delivery of gold there's no tax to pay but it's a security risk going forward as the economy collapses
- if you take physical delivery of silver you have to pay VAT
You can buy and have it stored securely at BullionVault.com and GoldMoney.com, I use both.
Buy a copy of Silver Bomb by MacDonald and Whitestone, Amazon has it.
You are possibly doing the single most important thing you could in considering PMs. Start learning your subject and read. Most investors are clueless, learn to think for yourself. Two good teaching sites are: JSMinset.com and Keiser Report.com
Good luck, Colin.
These are my tips:
- don't consult financial advisors, they are narrow trained and mostly ignorant of basic economics
- don't buy paper derivatives, ie. ETFs, unless you have read the prospectus and are sure they hold the metal (most don't)
- if you take physical delivery of gold there's no tax to pay but it's a security risk going forward as the economy collapses
- if you take physical delivery of silver you have to pay VAT
You can buy and have it stored securely at BullionVault.com and GoldMoney.com, I use both.
Buy a copy of Silver Bomb by MacDonald and Whitestone, Amazon has it.
You are possibly doing the single most important thing you could in considering PMs. Start learning your subject and read. Most investors are clueless, learn to think for yourself. Two good teaching sites are: JSMinset.com and Keiser Report.com
Good luck, Colin.
It somewhat depends on the amount you're looking to spend. If it's some thousands, you can look at the mint coins (Krugerrands etc). Fun to hold, portable, anonymous, liquid, but they trade at wide spreads and you have to store them and insure them.
Alternatively, and certainly if it's multi-tens of thousands and up, then either a fractional vault as mentioned above (do your diligence) or an ETF with allocated holdings. GTU.TSX and SGBS.L are probably the best known.
Do not take physical delivery of bullion; you then have to re-assay it to sell.
Alternatively, and certainly if it's multi-tens of thousands and up, then either a fractional vault as mentioned above (do your diligence) or an ETF with allocated holdings. GTU.TSX and SGBS.L are probably the best known.
Do not take physical delivery of bullion; you then have to re-assay it to sell.
Bullion Vault and GoldMoney are not fractional in any sense. There is no lease or lend of any kind associated with either. The fractional scandals were and will continue to be where PMs have been in the custody of banks. I am not suggesting anyone has any dealings of any significance with any bank. Under no circumstances allow any metal to be held by any bank.
BV and GM use audited vaults and are owned by two of the most respected people in PMs, Paul Tustain and James Turk resp. Any ETF is a recognised level of counterparty risk above an audited vault and it is unwise to suggest any paper derivative is comparable with legal title to allocated good delivery metal. For example, which is obviously safer, a paper credit to a possibly backed overseas derivative or metal stored in London under the nose of the Met?
In the world we are entering anything is becoming possible. Fraud is becoming commonplace. While I have not (yet)taken physical delivery out of the vaults I am by legal title holding physical metal. Vault metal does not need assaying obviousy but there is a growing case to suggest at least some poor souls will one day wish they had foregone the small cost of authentication and known for sure it was where they thought it was.
In the near future, in my opinion, return of money will be worth more than any return on it.
Colin.
BV and GM use audited vaults and are owned by two of the most respected people in PMs, Paul Tustain and James Turk resp. Any ETF is a recognised level of counterparty risk above an audited vault and it is unwise to suggest any paper derivative is comparable with legal title to allocated good delivery metal. For example, which is obviously safer, a paper credit to a possibly backed overseas derivative or metal stored in London under the nose of the Met?
In the world we are entering anything is becoming possible. Fraud is becoming commonplace. While I have not (yet)taken physical delivery out of the vaults I am by legal title holding physical metal. Vault metal does not need assaying obviousy but there is a growing case to suggest at least some poor souls will one day wish they had foregone the small cost of authentication and known for sure it was where they thought it was.
In the near future, in my opinion, return of money will be worth more than any return on it.
Colin.
Investors Chronicle article dated 29 August 2012 may be of interest as it discussed various ways of buying, holding and selling gold.
http://www.investorschronicle.co.uk/2012/08/29/com...
http://www.investorschronicle.co.uk/2012/08/29/com...
Why do you want to buy it?
It is almost at its highest ever allowing for inflation and has gone down a bit over recent months.
Serious question: Have you missed the boat?
Another serious question: The last time gold was this high was over thirty years ago, if you have missed the boat that's a long time to wait to break even.
It is almost at its highest ever allowing for inflation and has gone down a bit over recent months.
Serious question: Have you missed the boat?
Another serious question: The last time gold was this high was over thirty years ago, if you have missed the boat that's a long time to wait to break even.
Re. the GoldMoney route, there's just something that bugs me about Turk. He pops up on the same old podcasts with the same message and simply never has anything cautionary to say on the subject. Ever. Every move up is the beginning of paper money collapse and you should definitely hold gold, whilst every move down is a buying opportunity and you should definitely be using it to hold gold. He may well be right for all I know, but it just strikes me as slightly questionable behaviour given his clear vested interest. Just sounds like a marketing pitch.
Also, having metal in a (possibly foreign) vault doesn't strike me as the most sensible option if you're at the doomier end of the paper collapse spectrum. I like gold (and silver) and I own a small amount of both in a variety of forms, but if society does go properly tits up, an allocated portion of a gold bar stored somewhere under Zurich isn't going to be that much help really. You might not have counterparty risk in the financial sense, but you're still trusting a third party with your wealth, and I'm not sure I'd want that much distance between me and my survival kit in that situation. Even if you could a) get to Zurich and b) gain access to the vault, unless you own a whole bar, what exactly are you going to do with it? You can't divide it, regardless of what the audited records say. What happens if you want "your" part of the bar but the other holders don't? Just a very expensive paper weight at that point. You can't buy people out of their share, as paper money has collapsed! Even if you solve that, it's still not really divisible enough to use for small purchases, which is what you're going to be doing in a full on collapse situation. Silver coins are probably the better bet there, VAT or not. I like the stuff, but I think it's protection capabilities are dramatically oversold. You'd be far better off buying land, tools and food, especially seeds.
Also, having metal in a (possibly foreign) vault doesn't strike me as the most sensible option if you're at the doomier end of the paper collapse spectrum. I like gold (and silver) and I own a small amount of both in a variety of forms, but if society does go properly tits up, an allocated portion of a gold bar stored somewhere under Zurich isn't going to be that much help really. You might not have counterparty risk in the financial sense, but you're still trusting a third party with your wealth, and I'm not sure I'd want that much distance between me and my survival kit in that situation. Even if you could a) get to Zurich and b) gain access to the vault, unless you own a whole bar, what exactly are you going to do with it? You can't divide it, regardless of what the audited records say. What happens if you want "your" part of the bar but the other holders don't? Just a very expensive paper weight at that point. You can't buy people out of their share, as paper money has collapsed! Even if you solve that, it's still not really divisible enough to use for small purchases, which is what you're going to be doing in a full on collapse situation. Silver coins are probably the better bet there, VAT or not. I like the stuff, but I think it's protection capabilities are dramatically oversold. You'd be far better off buying land, tools and food, especially seeds.
cymtriks said:
Why do you want to buy it?
It is almost at its highest ever allowing for inflation and has gone down a bit over recent months.
Serious question: Have you missed the boat?
Another serious question: The last time gold was this high was over thirty years ago, if you have missed the boat that's a long time to wait to break even.
No, in my opinion you've not missed the boat. Why hold it? I would with the utmost respect say read the subject, I've suggested a book and the sites will help massively. I'm certain about what I've done and this forum is about bandying opinions, so we all need to decide for ourselves. I'm not trying to convince anyone, I'm just telling you what I think. It is almost at its highest ever allowing for inflation and has gone down a bit over recent months.
Serious question: Have you missed the boat?
Another serious question: The last time gold was this high was over thirty years ago, if you have missed the boat that's a long time to wait to break even.
By-the-way, the fair value of gold corrected for inflation is $2500-3000/oz, we sit today at $1710
Colin.
hornet said:
Re. the GoldMoney route, there's just something that bugs me about Turk. He pops up on the same old podcasts with the same message and simply never has anything cautionary to say on the subject. Ever. Every move up is the beginning of paper money collapse and you should definitely hold gold, whilst every move down is a buying opportunity and you should definitely be using it to hold gold. He may well be right for all I know, but it just strikes me as slightly questionable behaviour given his clear vested interest. Just sounds like a marketing pitch.
Also, having metal in a (possibly foreign) vault doesn't strike me as the most sensible option if you're at the doomier end of the paper collapse spectrum. I like gold (and silver) and I own a small amount of both in a variety of forms, but if society does go properly tits up, an allocated portion of a gold bar stored somewhere under Zurich isn't going to be that much help really. You might not have counterparty risk in the financial sense, but you're still trusting a third party with your wealth, and I'm not sure I'd want that much distance between me and my survival kit in that situation. Even if you could a) get to Zurich and b) gain access to the vault, unless you own a whole bar, what exactly are you going to do with it? You can't divide it, regardless of what the audited records say. What happens if you want "your" part of the bar but the other holders don't? Just a very expensive paper weight at that point. You can't buy people out of their share, as paper money has collapsed! Even if you solve that, it's still not really divisible enough to use for small purchases, which is what you're going to be doing in a full on collapse situation. Silver coins are probably the better bet there, VAT or not. I like the stuff, but I think it's protection capabilities are dramatically oversold. You'd be far better off buying land, tools and food, especially seeds.
You know, I agree totally, Mr Turk does leave me feeling a little uneasy too. But I'm sure he's right if a little slick. Not however, as unpleasant as a member of the banking and finance profession trying to sell you an equity fund or an ETF.Also, having metal in a (possibly foreign) vault doesn't strike me as the most sensible option if you're at the doomier end of the paper collapse spectrum. I like gold (and silver) and I own a small amount of both in a variety of forms, but if society does go properly tits up, an allocated portion of a gold bar stored somewhere under Zurich isn't going to be that much help really. You might not have counterparty risk in the financial sense, but you're still trusting a third party with your wealth, and I'm not sure I'd want that much distance between me and my survival kit in that situation. Even if you could a) get to Zurich and b) gain access to the vault, unless you own a whole bar, what exactly are you going to do with it? You can't divide it, regardless of what the audited records say. What happens if you want "your" part of the bar but the other holders don't? Just a very expensive paper weight at that point. You can't buy people out of their share, as paper money has collapsed! Even if you solve that, it's still not really divisible enough to use for small purchases, which is what you're going to be doing in a full on collapse situation. Silver coins are probably the better bet there, VAT or not. I like the stuff, but I think it's protection capabilities are dramatically oversold. You'd be far better off buying land, tools and food, especially seeds.
I don't believe there will be any doomsday use for any PM. They will simply protect your wealth subjuct to confiscation and tax.
Your comments about about skills and seeds may prove very telling, I hope not, but you are not mad.
Colin.
longone said:
You know, I agree totally, Mr Turk does leave me feeling a little uneasy too. But I'm sure he's right if a little slick. Not however, as unpleasant as a member of the banking and finance profession trying to sell you an equity fund or an ETF.
I don't believe there will be any doomsday use for any PM. They will simply protect your wealth subjuct to confiscation and tax.
Your comments about about skills and seeds may prove very telling, I hope not, but you are not mad.
Colin.
The stuff about land and seeds isn't my view of what's going to happen as such, more just what you should be doing if you're a full on "doomer".Everyone screams "buy gold!", but nobody addresses the "ok, then what?" questions. The thing I find amusing is that many of the more vocal players in the paper collapse sphere all have books and DVDs to sell you, none of which are priced in ounces of gold or silver. Not exactly faith in the product is it! My interest in metals is partly an extension of an interest in coins generally, but also a reaction to getting caught up in the Kaupthing implosion. I had a chunk of money in cyberspace for a period of time and absolutely no idea when I'd be seeing it again. That was the trigger for a "eggs/basket allocation review" and an interest in money and debt generally. I'll happily admit there's also something a little bit sexy and renegade about having wealth outside the system. I intend building on what I have, but it's down the list after clearing all debts, including the mortgage. That's the main one for me at the moment.I don't believe there will be any doomsday use for any PM. They will simply protect your wealth subjuct to confiscation and tax.
Your comments about about skills and seeds may prove very telling, I hope not, but you are not mad.
Colin.
On the subject of gold and silver "commentators", any thoughts on Mike Maloney? Been watching a few of his YouTube videos and whilst he does have very slick hair, his presentation isn't anything like as smooth as some, and he does appear to want to give advice as much as just sell you things. He has the usual news letters and whatnot, but there's some good educational stuff and interviews as well.
coyft said:
hornet said:
The stuff about land and seeds isn't my view of what's going to happen as such, more just what you should be doing if you're a full on "doomer".Everyone screams "buy gold!", but nobody addresses the "ok, then what?" questions.
If your'e a full on doomer, buy gold coins & bury them in your garden. It's that simple. Think of them as an insurance not as an investment.cymtriks said:
How do you calculate a "fair value"?
The value corrected for inflation (I used RPI) is closer to 2000.
There are several ways to calculate the adjusted value of PMs. The range I quoted was from different sources I've seen who have calculated it using RPI. I have never done the sum for myself. However, a more realistic value is one that represents the amount of money in circulation, as originally the purpose of the metal was to back fiat paper. Using that metric commentators get estimates from $10,000-$60,000/oz. The value corrected for inflation (I used RPI) is closer to 2000.
The most modest way to value metals is using just inflation but to ignore the amount of paper that has recently been printed will only move the figure to the upside.
Jim Sinclair, a man with an astonishing record in the PM markets sees gold going through $3500/oz in the next 1-2 years.
I think 2500-3000 is not unrealistic today.
Colin.
longone said:
There are several ways to calculate the adjusted value of PMs. The range I quoted was from different sources I've seen who have calculated it using RPI. I have never done the sum for myself. However, a more realistic value is one that represents the amount of money in circulation, as originally the purpose of the metal was to back fiat paper. Using that metric commentators get estimates from $10,000-$60,000/oz.
The most modest way to value metals is using just inflation but to ignore the amount of paper that has recently been printed will only move the figure to the upside.
Jim Sinclair, a man with an astonishing record in the PM markets sees gold going through $3500/oz in the next 1-2 years.
I think 2500-3000 is not unrealistic today.
Colin.
One measure that interests me is the gold ounces to average house price ratio. A few of the people I chat to on the subject are building positions in metal purely to preserve purchasing power and waiting for the moment their metals will cover the cost of a decent house. Makes for a fairly sensible target really.The most modest way to value metals is using just inflation but to ignore the amount of paper that has recently been printed will only move the figure to the upside.
Jim Sinclair, a man with an astonishing record in the PM markets sees gold going through $3500/oz in the next 1-2 years.
I think 2500-3000 is not unrealistic today.
Colin.
Hornet. I thoroughly agree with your input in this thread. The idea that gold would be valuable in an economic meltdown is most probably a given. However holding and using gold efficiently and effectively would be near impossible. For this reason I'm wondering if the best form of getting into gold, obviously on a small scale would be collecting up second hand engagement rings, jewellery and bits and pieces. I would have thought holding as many different weights, ct, values and individual pieces would give you the best chance of actually trading with the stuff effectively if paper money became worthless. I'd be interested in your thoughts on this.
Also as you say, Armageddon aside. Investing in metals with a view to comparisons in property is where the really smart money has been in recent years. The very few BTL'ers who cashed in at near peak and bought into gold have seen incredible returns. I imagine there's some incredibly savvy investors who just move from one bubble to another just doubling their money every 5 years. Now that would be a skill.
Also as you say, Armageddon aside. Investing in metals with a view to comparisons in property is where the really smart money has been in recent years. The very few BTL'ers who cashed in at near peak and bought into gold have seen incredible returns. I imagine there's some incredibly savvy investors who just move from one bubble to another just doubling their money every 5 years. Now that would be a skill.
rufusgti said:
Hornet. I thoroughly agree with your input in this thread. The idea that gold would be valuable in an economic meltdown is most probably a given. However holding and using gold efficiently and effectively would be near impossible. For this reason I'm wondering if the best form of getting into gold, obviously on a small scale would be collecting up second hand engagement rings, jewellery and bits and pieces. I would have thought holding as many different weights, ct, values and individual pieces would give you the best chance of actually trading with the stuff effectively if paper money became worthless. I'd be interested in your thoughts on this.
Only problem with that was touched on in one of the Mike Maloney clips I was watching. You may well have a lot of "scrap" gold/silver, but in a world where it would be useful as currency, you have no easy way of knowing its value. Say everything has gone a bit Mad Max. You pull up at a remote petrol station in need of fuel. The owner says he'll sell you 3 gallons for 1oz of silver, as he knows he can use that ounce later to go and buy food supplies. If you have a 1oz coin on you (and its authenticity isn't in doubt), the transaction is easy. The seller knows he's getting 1oz of silver and knows he can use it elsewhere with similar ease. If you rock up with a bag of Cash4Gold trinkets, you may well have just as much value in terms of metals, but he has no obvious way of measuring it. How many gold rings is a gallon of fuel? He could sit there and weigh them, but that's time consuming, plus he has no idea how much metal content he's looking at or if the local store will accept them. In all honesty, in a world where things have gone THAT wrong, I could see far more mundane things being used as currency. Chickens would be a good bet. People need eggs!I am not an expert, this does not constitute investment advice and I'm not about to set up "ChickenMoney", where you can buy an allocated share in a good delivery physical chicken kept away from mainstream agriculture in a secure, audited coop in Geneva. There's doubtless already an ETF where you can do just that
I can see that ultimately a gold coin is the best way. However they seem to have such fixed prices.
I recently bought a gold diamond ring for 80 quid from eBay. I went straight to my local jewellers to have it valued where he offered me £450. I've no idea what the diamonds worth but it struck me as a very good way of buying up gold.
I recently bought a gold diamond ring for 80 quid from eBay. I went straight to my local jewellers to have it valued where he offered me £450. I've no idea what the diamonds worth but it struck me as a very good way of buying up gold.
hornet said:
One measure that interests me is the gold ounces to average house price ratio. A few of the people I chat to on the subject are building positions in metal purely to preserve purchasing power and waiting for the moment their metals will cover the cost of a decent house. Makes for a fairly sensible target really.
I was looking at this originally as an exit strategy but the problem you have with this is only measuring it against UK house prices. House prices in the USA and parts of Europe have collapsed a lot more than the UK but Gold is a asset that is trading globally. If you live in Detroit Gold is the most expensive it has ever been relative to house prices but if you live in London its a different story.Gassing Station | Finance | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff