Age limits/tests for pilots?

[Corsair7]

With regard this story:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-coventry-warw...

Are there stringent checks on private pilots at this age? (70) Most 70 year olds I see have trouble piloting a Tescos shopping trolley, let alone a light plane.

I know this is terribly 'ageist', but surely the faculties of a 70 year old are usually much reduced? reaction times, sight, hearing, awareness etc.

Is there a rigourous procedure for checking such a 'senior' persons abiltiy to adequatly deal with any situation they may find themselves in? I know many men of this age struggle to control a car with their reaction times, and thus drive increasly slower. You cant really do that in a light plane though, can you?

It doesnt say that age played any part in this accident, but if I were the family of the other victims, I would be wondering if it did.

[JensenA]

Whilst I appreciate where you are coming from, your post is "ageism" and pure Speculation - "The Air Accidents Investigations Branch (AAIB) said that a contributory factor was that "insufficient or inaccurate information" was given to the pilots".
The pilot of the other plane, a female, was 33 years old, perhaps she wasn't experienced enough, or was it because she was a woman?

[Dr Jekyll]

Google Bob Hoover.

[Corsair7]

Dr Jekyll said:

Google Bob Hoover.

yeah, and? Your point?

[Dr Jekyll]

Just because someone is over the age of 21 doesn't mean they can't handle an aircraft.

[elster]

I take it you didn't actually read the story.

The age is irrelevant.

[Corsair7]

JensenA said:

Whilst I appreciate where you are coming from, your post is "ageism" and pure Speculation - "The Air Accidents Investigations Branch (AAIB) said that a contributory factor was that "insufficient or inaccurate information" was given to the pilots".
The pilot of the other plane, a female, was 33 years old, perhaps she wasn't experienced enough, or was it because she was a woman?

There are always exceptions, but lets face it, ageist or not, most people around the age of 70 do see a dip in their abilties and reflexes. If they're not already dead that is. I remember the last time I went out in the car with my father, you could see his driving abilities were no doubt impeeded. He never even made it to 70, passing away at 69. Most people of a certain age start driving slower, becuase they know they will have more time to react to situations. Flying a plane doesnt allow you such actions.

There is of course the arguement that 'experience' will be high on an aged persons side, and risk aversion. But tell me, when was the last time you saw a person of this age (especially a man, women generally seem to fair better) take direct and desicive reactions to situations..... or do you generally tut and huff as you're stuck behind them in the shopping isle/car pak/junction etc.....?

Is it ageist to say someones 'probably to old' to be doing something? I dont think it is. It may be age insenitive, but their age is a fact, not an opinion, and its a fact that people react slower when they age. Its a fact that their various faculties deteriorate with age to some extent or another, this is not an opinion or a bias or prejudice. Most people of a certain age that I know accept their abilities and faculties are impacted by their age. Do pilots? Or are they immune?

Sexism is a prejudice obviously. But ageism? Certainly in the work place, ageism takes place, but this isnt about 'a younger person could do it better/cheaper', its about recognising that certain people should probably accept that they should no longer so certain things. The guy was 70, not 50. He wouldnt get a job anywhere with that on his c.v. let alone in aviation. So am I being ageist?

Yes there was no mention of age/experience (or even sex!) as a factor in the report. But it makes you wonder, does it not, did the investigator have the balls to raise such a concern in light of being accused of 'ageism'? People are so quick to 'take offence' when something like this is made official, the very same people probably mutter 'silly old f**ker' every time they get delayed by some old fogey in a Honda Jazz that cant decide which motorway to turn the wrong way down......

You cant ignore age, its a fact.

[Corsair7]

elster said:

I take it you didn't actually read the story.

The age is irrelevant.

Perhaps you need to re-read my origianl question....

[elster]

Corsair7 said:

elster said:

I take it you didn't actually read the story.

The age is irrelevant.

Perhaps you need to re-read my origianl question....

I did read the last line, you were implying that in fact the investigation was completely wrong and everything should be blamed on him by the family Ish.

But no, age is irrelevant, people eyes deteriorate differently. If people fly at clubs then members are known to have a word with other people when they think they are passed it. The medicals when you get over a certain age get a lot tougher.

[528Sport]

Dr Jekyll said:

Google Bob Hoover.

what a pilot
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZBcapxGHjE&fea...

age usually = experience

Edited by 528Sport on Tuesday 7th December 12:11

[Ayahuasca]

Impeeded indeed.

[john_p]

Clearly insurance companies don't share your view, because plenty of pilots are able to fly until they're in their 80s. If they were a real risk to others they'd be grounded by spiralling insurance costs.

[wolves_wanderer]

A pilot will have stringent medicals periodically and there is a lot less to hit in the air. Besides which, for a mid-air collision at least 2 people (3 in this case) have to screw up.

[JensenA]

Corsair7 said:

JensenA said:

Whilst I appreciate where you are coming from, your post is "ageism" and pure Speculation - "The Air Accidents Investigations Branch (AAIB) said that a contributory factor was that "insufficient or inaccurate information" was given to the pilots".
The pilot of the other plane, a female, was 33 years old, perhaps she wasn't experienced enough, or was it because she was a woman?

There are always exceptions, but lets face it, ageist or not, most people around the age of 70 do see a dip in their abilties and reflexes. If they're not already dead that is. I remember the last time I went out in the car with my father, you could see his driving abilities were no doubt impeeded. He never even made it to 70, passing away at 69. Most people of a certain age start driving slower, becuase they know they will have more time to react to situations. Flying a plane doesnt allow you such actions.

There is of course the arguement that 'experience' will be high on an aged persons side, and risk aversion. But tell me, when was the last time you saw a person of this age (especially a man, women generally seem to fair better) take direct and desicive reactions to situations..... or do you generally tut and huff as you're stuck behind them in the shopping isle/car pak/junction etc.....?

Is it ageist to say someones 'probably to old' to be doing something? I dont think it is. It may be age insenitive, but their age is a fact, not an opinion, and its a fact that people react slower when they age. Its a fact that their various faculties deteriorate with age to some extent or another, this is not an opinion or a bias or prejudice. Most people of a certain age that I know accept their abilities and faculties are impacted by their age. Do pilots? Or are they immune?

Sexism is a prejudice obviously. But ageism? Certainly in the work place, ageism takes place, but this isnt about 'a younger person could do it better/cheaper', its about recognising that certain people should probably accept that they should no longer so certain things. The guy was 70, not 50. He wouldnt get a job anywhere with that on his c.v. let alone in aviation. So am I being ageist?

Yes there was no mention of age/experience (or even sex!) as a factor in the report. But it makes you wonder, does it not, did the investigator have the balls to raise such a concern in light of being accused of 'ageism'? People are so quick to 'take offence' when something like this is made official, the very same people probably mutter 'silly old f**ker' every time they get delayed by some old fogey in a Honda Jazz that cant decide which motorway to turn the wrong way down......

You cant ignore age, its a fact.

Your reply just proves what I was saying about your opinions in the original - Pure Speculation and Ageism

[superlightr]

Corsair7 said:

With regard this story:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-coventry-warw...

Are there stringent checks on private pilots at this age? (70) Most 70 year olds I see have trouble piloting a Tescos shopping trolley, let alone a light plane.

I know this is terribly 'ageist', but surely the faculties of a 70 year old are usually much reduced? reaction times, sight, hearing, awareness etc.

Is there a rigourous procedure for checking such a 'senior' persons abiltiy to adequatly deal with any situation they may find themselves in? I know many men of this age struggle to control a car with their reaction times, and thus drive increasly slower. You cant really do that in a light plane though, can you?

It doesnt say that age played any part in this accident, but if I were the family of the other victims, I would be wondering if it did.

Do you fly?

You have been watching too many biggles films if you beleive fast reaction times are required to fly a light aircraft. Hearing? light aircraft are noisy at the best of times - so long as you can hear the tower via the headphone thats all you need. Awareness? poor awareness can occur at any age.

Experience, training and planning are the key elements to flying safely and a bit of luck not age. (midair collisions can happen even if you are the ball)

Edited by superlightr on Tuesday 7th December 13:00

[ninja-lewis]

superlightr said:

Corsair7 said:

With regard this story:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-coventry-warw...

Are there stringent checks on private pilots at this age? (70) Most 70 year olds I see have trouble piloting a Tescos shopping trolley, let alone a light plane.

I know this is terribly 'ageist', but surely the faculties of a 70 year old are usually much reduced? reaction times, sight, hearing, awareness etc.

Is there a rigourous procedure for checking such a 'senior' persons abiltiy to adequatly deal with any situation they may find themselves in? I know many men of this age struggle to control a car with their reaction times, and thus drive increasly slower. You cant really do that in a light plane though, can you?

It doesnt say that age played any part in this accident, but if I were the family of the other victims, I would be wondering if it did.

Do you fly?

You have been watching too many biggles films if you beleive fast reaction times are required to fly a light aircraft. Hearing? light aircraft are noisy at the best of times - so long as you can hear the tower via the headphone thats all you need. Awareness? poor awareness can occur at any age.

Experience, training and planning are the key elements to flying safely and a bit of luck not age. (midair collisions can happen even if you are the ball)

Edited by superlightr on Tuesday 7th December 13:00

You don't even need hearing - plenty of deaf pilots out there (I'm hoping to become one of them next year).

To answer the question about medicals:

For the Private Pilot's Licence (as in this sad case), the pilot would need a valid Class 2 medical certificate following an physical examination by an Aviation Medical Examiner. This is valid for 60 months for <40 year olds, 24 months for 40-49 yo and 12 months for 50+. The latter group will also require an annual ECG.

On top of the medical requirements, the licence and class rating (Single Engine Piston (Land)) also have expiration dates; 5 years for the licence and 2 years for the SEP rating. For the rating to be revalidated by experience you need to fly a minimum of 12 hours (12 take offs/landings, 6 hours as P1, 1 hour dual with an instructor) in the last 12 months. Otherwise a check flight with a Flight Examiner is required.

To put the system into perspective, even the more stringent Class 1 medical for commercial pilots will not pick up all problems. A Ryanair pilot died of heart disesase in flight last January despite revalidating his medical not long before. The truth is the risk is very small. Hence why the National Private Pilot's Licence only requires a self-declaration signed by your GP that you meet either the DVLA Group 1 (private driver) or Group 2 (LGV/PSV - if you wish to carry passengers) standards.

[eccles]

I think you are just being blindly ageist.
One of the most popular test pilots for Vans home built aircraft in the UK is well into his 70's. He flies and displays his own aircraft that is far faster than the home built aircraft that crashed in this story with no problem at all.

[spikeyhead]

My Dad is in his early 70s, still works as a lifeguard at a swimming pool most of the time and is still a far stronger swimmer than most adults.

He's also, in the last year had a months physical work in:-
Khazakstan
Nigeria
Athens
Some other sweaty place I can't remember.

Compared with sitting in an armchair twiddling a joystick? I think you're being excessively ageist.

[Travs]

Suggest you check out Ken
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1289662/A-...

[Taffer]

eccles said:

I think you are just being blindly ageist.
One of the most popular test pilots for Vans home built aircraft in the UK is well into his 70's. He flies and displays his own aircraft that is far faster than the home built aircraft that crashed in this story with no problem at all.

+1

The OP might get a shock if he sees how many civilian instructors in the military Elementary Flying Training role are of the silver-haired variety. The MoD doesn't have a problem with age, and trusts them to train the next generation of pilots as long as they are capable of doing their job.