Discussion
I have never ventured into this part of PH before so bear with me!
Could one of you political experts clarify a couple of points for me, and these are genuine queries I hold, not trying to wind anybody up.
Saddams WOMD and the "lies" debate and the fact he had none?
Well, I recall , without question, he gassed Kurds in the north the nerve gas and everybody just died on the spot, some with babies still in their arms so it was some pretty nasty s
t. Delivered by jets which supposedly detonated in "clouds" above ground. Nobody ever disputed he did this, so he DID have WOMD. Did he declare officailly he either used them all up or destroyed all the remaining WOMD? Or where did he declare they all went as he undoubtedly HAD lots? He could not dispute he had them, so what did he officially say he did with them all?
And secondly, going to war the second time with no UN mandate. As far as I could understand, the first UN mandate from the 1991 conflict was still current and had not been fulfilled? Sorry being several years late but I have never worked these two out!
Could one of you political experts clarify a couple of points for me, and these are genuine queries I hold, not trying to wind anybody up.
Saddams WOMD and the "lies" debate and the fact he had none?
Well, I recall , without question, he gassed Kurds in the north the nerve gas and everybody just died on the spot, some with babies still in their arms so it was some pretty nasty s
t. Delivered by jets which supposedly detonated in "clouds" above ground. Nobody ever disputed he did this, so he DID have WOMD. Did he declare officailly he either used them all up or destroyed all the remaining WOMD? Or where did he declare they all went as he undoubtedly HAD lots? He could not dispute he had them, so what did he officially say he did with them all? And secondly, going to war the second time with no UN mandate. As far as I could understand, the first UN mandate from the 1991 conflict was still current and had not been fulfilled? Sorry being several years late but I have never worked these two out!
He used to have an awful lot of chemical agents. He even used them.
UN Weapons inspectors had (loads of books on the subject) a shocking time with stand off after stand off visitng sites and other obstructions.
He was forced to destroy lots.
It's still arguable that he had them until GW2, however there are rumours of them being moved across Syrian border in the months before the war.
Many people (mostly stupid people) seem to forgot he had them and used them before and seem to forget that when talking about GW2. They seem to think finding none since means the past was all a terrible dream.
UN Weapons inspectors had (loads of books on the subject) a shocking time with stand off after stand off visitng sites and other obstructions.
He was forced to destroy lots.
It's still arguable that he had them until GW2, however there are rumours of them being moved across Syrian border in the months before the war.
Many people (mostly stupid people) seem to forgot he had them and used them before and seem to forget that when talking about GW2. They seem to think finding none since means the past was all a terrible dream.
He didn’t need to gas the Kurds for us to know he had WMD.
‘We’ sold him the WMD so we knew he had it before he used it.
He told us he would invade Kuwait (we shrugged) then he did and then the yanks gave him a kicking; ‘We’ then fell out.
After that, he may have run out of cash and destroyed/couldn’t afford/maintain the remaining WMD (had a go at putting a super gun together but when the western press found out, ‘we’ had to stop sending him the components) but he never told the population he’d off’ed the firepower and couldn’t lose face by telling the west either – although he did tell the weapons inspectors.
So George W used it as an excuse to finish off what he thought his daddy should have done so he could give the resulting money/contracts to his mates in defence/oil.
Essentially, Saddam got hanged because he was too proud to tell the west he’d done as he was told and many 100,000’s of the population died as a result.
Sad.
‘We’ sold him the WMD so we knew he had it before he used it.
He told us he would invade Kuwait (we shrugged) then he did and then the yanks gave him a kicking; ‘We’ then fell out.
After that, he may have run out of cash and destroyed/couldn’t afford/maintain the remaining WMD (had a go at putting a super gun together but when the western press found out, ‘we’ had to stop sending him the components) but he never told the population he’d off’ed the firepower and couldn’t lose face by telling the west either – although he did tell the weapons inspectors.
So George W used it as an excuse to finish off what he thought his daddy should have done so he could give the resulting money/contracts to his mates in defence/oil.
Essentially, Saddam got hanged because he was too proud to tell the west he’d done as he was told and many 100,000’s of the population died as a result.
Sad.
and the even more stupid people actually believed that he could turn them on us in 45 minutes
and invading iraq would not cause a huge spike in islamic radicalism, and a subsequent bombing of the underground
amazingly by his own admission our own prime minister at the time thought along those lines
a spastic and anyone who still goes along with it is as much of a spastic as him.
hope he dies horribly.
and invading iraq would not cause a huge spike in islamic radicalism, and a subsequent bombing of the underground
amazingly by his own admission our own prime minister at the time thought along those lines
a spastic and anyone who still goes along with it is as much of a spastic as him.
hope he dies horribly.
DonnyMac said:
He didn’t need to gas the Kurds for us to know he had WMD.
‘We’ sold him the WMD so we knew he had it before he used it.
He told us he would invade Kuwait (we shrugged) then he did and then the yanks gave him a kicking; ‘We’ then fell out.
After that, he may have run out of cash and destroyed/couldn’t afford/maintain the remaining WMD (had a go at putting a super gun together but when the western press found out, ‘we’ had to stop sending him the components) but he never told the population he’d off’ed the firepower and couldn’t lose face by telling the west either – although he did tell the weapons inspectors.
So George W used it as an excuse to finish off what he thought his daddy should have done so he could give the resulting money/contracts to his mates in defence/oil.
Essentially, Saddam got hanged because he was too proud to tell the west he’d done as he was told and many 100,000’s of the population died as a result.
Sad.
We?‘We’ sold him the WMD so we knew he had it before he used it.
He told us he would invade Kuwait (we shrugged) then he did and then the yanks gave him a kicking; ‘We’ then fell out.
After that, he may have run out of cash and destroyed/couldn’t afford/maintain the remaining WMD (had a go at putting a super gun together but when the western press found out, ‘we’ had to stop sending him the components) but he never told the population he’d off’ed the firepower and couldn’t lose face by telling the west either – although he did tell the weapons inspectors.
So George W used it as an excuse to finish off what he thought his daddy should have done so he could give the resulting money/contracts to his mates in defence/oil.
Essentially, Saddam got hanged because he was too proud to tell the west he’d done as he was told and many 100,000’s of the population died as a result.
Sad.
Do you actually know really who sold him what?
UK hardly sold him anything nor did the US. Russia and France were mainly responsible. Don't let facts get in your way though.
http://www.command-post.org/archives/002978.html
Edited by rich1231 on Thursday 19th August 00:16
Odie said:
Their was rumours in the intelligence community about 3 containers ships, I cant actually remember much else and it was just rumours. I don't think any was actually done about it well it may have been who knows.
it formed the plot of a Fredrick Forsyth novel "The Afghan". I dont know if the rumours were off the back of the novel or vice-versa but its a good read! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Afghan
DonnyMac said:
rich1231 said:
We?
Do you actually know really who sold him what?
UK hardly sold him anything nor did the US. Russia and France were mainly responsible. Don't let facts get in your way though.
Hi Rich... 'we'Do you actually know really who sold him what?
UK hardly sold him anything nor did the US. Russia and France were mainly responsible. Don't let facts get in your way though.
All told, 52% of Iraq's international chemical weapon equipment was of German origin.
The United Kingdom paid for a chlorine factory that was intended to be used for manufacturing mustard gas.
In the late 80s, the British government secretly gave the arms company Matrix Churchill permission to supply parts for Saddam Hussein's weapons programme, while British Industry supplied Gerald Bull as he developed the Iraqi supergun.
In March 1990, a case of nuclear triggers bound for Iraq, were seized at Heathrow Airport. The Scott Report uncovered much of the secrecy that had surrounded the Arms-to-Iraq affair when it became known.
An Austrian company gave Iraq calutrons for enriching uranium.
Singapore gave 4,515 tons of precursors for VX, sarin, tabun, and mustard gasses to Iraq.
The Dutch gave 4,261 tons of precursors for sarin, tabun, mustard, and tear gasses to Iraq.
Luxembourg gave Iraq 650 tons of mustard gas precursors.
Spain gave Iraq 57,500 munitions designed for carrying chemical weapons.
Portugal provided yellowcake between 1980 and 1982.
The Washington Post reported that in 1984 the CIA secretly started providing intelligence to the Iraqi army. This included information that was used by the Iraqis in targeting chemical weapons strikes.
The United States and the UK blocked condemnation of Iraq's known chemical weapons attacks at the UN Security Council
On March 21, 1986 the United Nation Security Council recognized that "chemical weapons on many occasions have been used by Iraqi forces against Iranian forces"; this statement was opposed by the United States, the sole country to vote against it in the Security Council (the UK abstained).
The Halabja poison gas attack caused an international outcry against the Iraqis. Later that year the U.S. Senate unanimously passed the Prevention of Genocide Act of 1988, cutting off all U.S. assistance to Iraq and stopping U.S. imports of Iraqi oil. The Reagan administration opposed the bill, calling it premature, and eventually prevented it from taking effect.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_and_weapons_of_m...
rich1231 said:
Sold not gave.
You do know he was an ally for a while dont you?
You do know positions change all the time between nations? Policies change to suit the parties involved?
Good god.You do know he was an ally for a while dont you?
You do know positions change all the time between nations? Policies change to suit the parties involved?
You’re on to a loser here.
Yep, I know, yep, I said sold.
Ally – err nope, lapdog, err, yes.
Position changed – obvious.
Please stop.
France and Russia sold him the most... most what?
That link to the graph proves bugger all!
The graph data shown in the link includes 'conventional' weapons, not WMD.
The war was about removing Iraqi WMD, some of which were supplied by the U.S.
The same Institute (sipri.se) shows the United States was - by far - the world leader in arms sales (97-2002)
That link to the graph proves bugger all!
The graph data shown in the link includes 'conventional' weapons, not WMD.
The war was about removing Iraqi WMD, some of which were supplied by the U.S.
The same Institute (sipri.se) shows the United States was - by far - the world leader in arms sales (97-2002)
DonnyMac said:
rich1231 said:
Sold not gave.
You do know he was an ally for a while dont you?
You do know positions change all the time between nations? Policies change to suit the parties involved?
Good god.You do know he was an ally for a while dont you?
You do know positions change all the time between nations? Policies change to suit the parties involved?
You’re on to a loser here.
Yep, I know, yep, I said sold.
Ally – err nope, lapdog, err, yes.
Position changed – obvious.
Please stop.
No not lap dog, ally, would you say the US and UK had more influence over Iraq than USSR? I can't remember the Iraqi forces being equipped with much western European kit.
rich1231 said:
DonnyMac said:
rich1231 said:
Sold not gave.
You do know he was an ally for a while dont you?
You do know positions change all the time between nations? Policies change to suit the parties involved?
Good god.You do know he was an ally for a while dont you?
You do know positions change all the time between nations? Policies change to suit the parties involved?
You’re on to a loser here.
Yep, I know, yep, I said sold.
Ally – err nope, lapdog, err, yes.
Position changed – obvious.
Please stop.
No not lap dog, ally, would you say the US and UK had more influence over Iraq than USSR? I can't remember the Iraqi forces being equipped with much western European kit.
My 1st post was accurate, yours was not, I informed you to the contrary – 52% of WMD come from German Origins alone – ‘we’ = western nations and/or UN – super gun reference, press exclusive, components stopped, intelligence as to motives, intelligence given.
France? Russia? Facts/story?
..and yes, you think Iraq went to war with Iran because the Russians or the Americans wanted them to .
US Iranian embassy embarrassment anyone?
Edit:
I'm off to bed now Rich, but, you do realise that Britain created/ran what is known at Iraq after the first world war; you do... don’t you?
(Google hint: Mesopotamia)
We’ve had influence there since the 18th Century.
(Google hint #2: East India Dock Company)
All the best,
D.
Edited by DonnyMac on Thursday 19th August 01:18
DonnyMac said:
rich1231 said:
Sold not gave.
You do know he was an ally for a while dont you?
You do know positions change all the time between nations? Policies change to suit the parties involved?
Good god.You do know he was an ally for a while dont you?
You do know positions change all the time between nations? Policies change to suit the parties involved?
You’re on to a loser here.
Yep, I know, yep, I said sold.
Ally – err nope, lapdog, err, yes.
Position changed – obvious.
Please stop.
Edited by Jimbeaux on Thursday 19th August 02:48
dandarez said:
France and Russia sold him the most... most what?
That link to the graph proves bugger all!
The graph data shown in the link includes 'conventional' weapons, not WMD.
The war was about removing Iraqi WMD, some of which were supplied by the U.S.
The same Institute (sipri.se) shows the United States was - by far - the world leader in arms sales (97-2002)
That must be why in GWI we faced the world's 4th largest army made up of Russian tanks. That link to the graph proves bugger all!
The graph data shown in the link includes 'conventional' weapons, not WMD.
The war was about removing Iraqi WMD, some of which were supplied by the U.S.
The same Institute (sipri.se) shows the United States was - by far - the world leader in arms sales (97-2002)
Edited by Jimbeaux on Thursday 19th August 02:52
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