Wikileaks and the 'Afghan War Diary'...

[Oily Nails]

PH 'Search' is down but I couldn't see this reported anywhere....

Wikileaks has just created a US intelligence leak (metaphorically) bigger than the BP Gulf Spill!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-10758578

The documents claim that Pakistani Intelligence has been funding the Taliban, that a number of civilian casualty incidents have not been reported and other 'happy' news.


Heads are gonna roll over this

[Muntu]

Oily Nails said:

The documents claim that Pakistani Intelligence has been funding the Taliban

Well, who in their wildest dreams would have guessed that was happening?

[5unny]

The Guardian said:

* Hundreds of civilians killed by ISAF forces.
* Increased Taliban attacks.
* Fear Pakistan and Iran fueling insurgency.
* A secret “black” unit of special forces hunting down Taliban leaders and Al Qaeda.
* Taliban has acquired deadly surface-to-air missiles (and US government didn’t tell us)
* Increasing use of deadly Reaper drones to hunt and kill Taliban targets by remote control from a base in Nevada.
* Taliban has caused growing carnage with a massive escalation of its roadside bombing campaign, which has killed more than 2,000 civilians to date.

Is any of this really new news?

Most, if not all, of it was in the public domain anyway.

[Oily Nails]

5unny said:

The Guardian said:

* Hundreds of civilians killed by ISAF forces.
* Increased Taliban attacks.
* Fear Pakistan and Iran fueling insurgency.
* A secret “black” unit of special forces hunting down Taliban leaders and Al Qaeda.
* Taliban has acquired deadly surface-to-air missiles (and US government didn’t tell us)
* Increasing use of deadly Reaper drones to hunt and kill Taliban targets by remote control from a base in Nevada.
* Taliban has caused growing carnage with a massive escalation of its roadside bombing campaign, which has killed more than 2,000 civilians to date.

Is any of this really new news?

Most, if not all, of it was in the public domain anyway.

I think the difference is that this stuff has usually been reported in the Western press qouting some Afghan Goat Herder talking about 'devil dogs in black pj's' and 'shrieking death from above'
This time its confirmed by the 'man', as such there will be trouble

[Frankeh]

Wikileaks is currently down, probably because of high load.

[Ozzie Osmond]

I am pleased that more information about casualties on the other side and among civilians is emerging.

In itself, daily news that "so far in this conflict we have lost 324 British soldiers" does nothing to give a true picture of the loss of life in this conflict.

We cannot help but wonder whether US/UK casualties are minimised by a "shoot first, ask questions later" approach which inevitably leads to a high rate of loss of life. Perhaps that is the right approach on the ground but I feel we should be allowed to understand the implications. Not least because the local population is never going to believe that we are the "good guys" if all they see is their family, friends and neighbours being killed.

Ideally we should know Taliban casualties, Allied casualties and the civilian casualties caused by each side. Even the roughest estimates would be better than nothing.

[Muntu]

Ozzie Osmond said:

"shoot first, ask questions later"

You do the coalition troops a great disservice coming out with utter ste like that.

[Marf]

Frankeh said:

Wikileaks is currently down, probably because of high load.

It's up

http://wardiary.wikileaks.org/

Must admit I'm surprised the BBC are linking directly to it.

Edited by Marf on Monday 26th July 11:47

[Frankeh]

Holy friendly fire, batman.

[Marf]

Frankeh said:

Holy friendly fire, batman.

http://wardiary.wikileaks.org/afg/sort/type/friendly_fire_0.html

http://wardiary.wikileaks.org/afg/sort/category/bl...

!!

[mattviatura]

Isn't Jane Hill lovely though?

[MX7]

Ozzie Osmond said:

Not least because the local population is never going to believe that we are the "good guys" if all they see is their family, friends and neighbours being killed.

They do believe that we're the good guys. When asked "From today’s perspective, do you think it was very good, mostly good, mostly bad or very bad that U.S. military forces came into our country to bring down the Taliban government in 2001?", 83% thought it was good, and 15% thought it was bad.

I think the biggest revelation are the allegations that Iran is directly backing the Taliban.

[carmonk]

Could there possibly be a connection between killing civilians in their own country the rise in extremist action? Nah, silly idea...

Edited by carmonk on Monday 26th July 13:36

[odyssey2200]

MX7 said:

I think the biggest revelation are the allegations that IranPakistan is directly backing the Taliban.

EFA

Edited by odyssey2200 on Monday 26th July 13:46

[MX7]

odyssey2200 said:

MX7 said:

I think the biggest revelation are the allegations that IranPakistan is directly backing the Taliban.

I'm not too surprised about the ISI really, but I am about Iran.

[Ozzie Osmond]

Muntu said:

Ozzie Osmond said:

"shoot first, ask questions later"

You do the coalition troops a great disservice coming out with utter ste like that.

I hope you are right. But one thing is clear from history. As soon as a government starts saying "we have the information but we can't tell you because it would damage our national security/interests" you can be darned sure they've got something to hide.

Like that nice Tony Blair and his "intelligence" used to kick-off the second war in Iraq. Turned out to be something imagined by him and George with no substance whatsoever.

[Muntu]

Ozzie Osmond said:

Muntu said:

Ozzie Osmond said:

"shoot first, ask questions later"

You do the coalition troops a great disservice coming out with utter ste like that.

I hope you are right. But one thing is clear from history. As soon as a government starts saying "we have the information but we can't tell you because it would damage our national security/interests" you can be darned sure they've got something to hide.

The ROE are pretty much in the public domain

Ozzie Osmond said:

Like that nice Tony Blair and his "intelligence" used to kick-off the second war in Iraq. Turned out to be something imagined by him and George with no substance whatsoever.

Iraq was in breech of the terms of the ceasefire of GW1. This thread is supposed to be about Wikileaks and Afghanistan, shall we try to keep it that way? If you do feel the need to discus Iraq, perhaps resurrect one of the countless threads on the subject?

[Ozzie Osmond]

Muntu said:

This thread is supposed to be about Wikileaks and Afghanistan, shall we try to keep it that way?

Remind me, why are we in Iraq and whose idea was it that we should be there?

And why is it that we have £billions available to bail out the banks and £billions of cuts to be made from public spending, yet there are still question marks over the adequacy of the equipment provided for our forces in Afghanistan?

And what are they achieving out there?

[Marf]

They're fighting tourism terrism bad guys, fighting bad guys.

[Mr Dave]

carmonk said:

Could there possibly be a connection between killing civilians in their own country the rise in extremist action? Nah, silly idea...

Edited by carmonk on Monday 26th July 13:36

Many of those extremists arent from Afghanistan. Many Tajiks, Pakistanis, British, Americans, Chechneyans, Iranians, Saudis etc are fighting in Afghanista. Maybe these foreign fighters killing Afghanis, oppressing Afghanis, hiding behind them as human shields that sort of thing is part of the reason why most of the population in Afghanistan support Coalition forces?

Nah silly idea.

All that is on wikileaks about this seems to show that the Taliban are really struggling and seem to be under a lot of pressure. An increase in outside support has caused the increase in IEDs (I hate that term, where I grew up they used to be called bombs) and the modern surface to air missiles have also been supplied by an outside source obviously but thankfully ahve done very little harm.

As for blue on blue some of those reports are shocking but not suprising. I am also impressed tehre are so few and very happy there are few casualties listed from it. I like this one


"ON 21 MAY 08 AT APPROXIMATELY 1700L AN ANP SOLDIER AT A BAZAAR GOT INTO A FIGHT WITH TWO NATIONAL DEFENSE SOLDIERS (NDS). THE ANP RETURNED TO THE ANP HQ COMPOUND TO RETRIEVE HIS AK-47. THE ANP SOLDIER EXITED THE COMPOUND AND GUNFIRE WAS EXCHANGED WITH THE NDS SOLDIERS. THE NDS SOLDIERS HAD A DSHKA MOUNTED ON A VEHICLE AND THE NDS SOLDIERS KILLED THE ANP. ANA, PMT, AND ETT WERE INVOLVED AFTER THE FACT. PRIMARY FOCUS WAS SEPARATING THE TWO AND CREATING A TRUCE BETWEEN ANP AND NDS LEADERSHIP.

BDA: 1 X ANP KILLED"