Rape victims to accept blame
Discussion
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8515592.stm
Wow. I suppose a person who has a nice motor nicked should also accept blame, and if you wear nice things, and have a nice mobile, you are asking for a mugging, and if you haver a nice nice house with lots of gadgets you surely you deserve it if you are burgled?
I am not surprised that women are more critical of other women who get raped.
Did they ask her?
Wow. I suppose a person who has a nice motor nicked should also accept blame, and if you wear nice things, and have a nice mobile, you are asking for a mugging, and if you haver a nice nice house with lots of gadgets you surely you deserve it if you are burgled?
I am not surprised that women are more critical of other women who get raped.
Did they ask her?
i guess because the majority of women are careful with the kind of signals and acts they do and avoid the date rapes cases, and see others that didn't stick to their rules as bringing it on themselves.
this doesn't count for the random dragged into the bushes stuff, but would be aimed at those who come in for a cup of coffee.
yes, it is still rape at the end of the day, but you don't go home with someone after a nightclub to check out their dvd collection
this doesn't count for the random dragged into the bushes stuff, but would be aimed at those who come in for a cup of coffee.
yes, it is still rape at the end of the day, but you don't go home with someone after a nightclub to check out their dvd collection
I think the salient point is that many people believe some rape victims should accept some blame. In particular, I don't think it is really blame that is under discussion (which implies wrongdoing), more like responsibility. Your analogies are a bit unfair, it is more like giving someone a set of keys, then when they drive off in your car reporting them for theft. It's clearly theft, but your mates are still going to say "it's your own fault". In any case, it's actually interesting that the law is effectively at odds with public opinion (though only very specific cases).
I'm not by any means saying these opinions are right, my personal view is that the law is clear and that is the end of it. Sadly people rarely think about these things deeply before answering (or are not capable of doing so). If they did, they would probably realise that rape victims are never "to blame", it's just that they may often be at least partly responsible for creating a situation where it is unsurprising that someone else commits a crime. The two are not the same. Rape is an emotive subject but the same principle applies to lots of other crimes.
What I would be interested to know is if a question like "do you think the perpetrator should be punished?" was asked.
I'm not by any means saying these opinions are right, my personal view is that the law is clear and that is the end of it. Sadly people rarely think about these things deeply before answering (or are not capable of doing so). If they did, they would probably realise that rape victims are never "to blame", it's just that they may often be at least partly responsible for creating a situation where it is unsurprising that someone else commits a crime. The two are not the same. Rape is an emotive subject but the same principle applies to lots of other crimes.
What I would be interested to know is if a question like "do you think the perpetrator should be punished?" was asked.
"BBC home affairs correspondent Danny Shaw says this latest study suggests attitudes may have hardened. And the findings may help explain why juries are reluctant to convict in some rape trials.
Amnesty International's UK director Kate Allen said the new findings were "alarming but sadly not surprising".
"It is depressing that, nearly half a decade later, people are still quick to blame the victim of rape rather than placing the responsibility where it actually belongs - squarely on the shoulders of the perpetrator," she said. "
Odd thing to come from Amnesty International, aren't we supposed to decide if someone is guilty beyond reasonable doubt. People aren't avoiding conviction because the jury thinks she deserved it, its because they've read about those hindsight rapes footballers keep falling in to.
Amnesty International's UK director Kate Allen said the new findings were "alarming but sadly not surprising".
"It is depressing that, nearly half a decade later, people are still quick to blame the victim of rape rather than placing the responsibility where it actually belongs - squarely on the shoulders of the perpetrator," she said. "
Odd thing to come from Amnesty International, aren't we supposed to decide if someone is guilty beyond reasonable doubt. People aren't avoiding conviction because the jury thinks she deserved it, its because they've read about those hindsight rapes footballers keep falling in to.
I feel the problem here is one of responsibility.
People have to accept that if you go out and get so drunk you can't get yourself home then you are making yourself needlessly vulnerable.
However every guy I know, knows it is wrong to have sex with a girl without her permission. So unless the guy happens to be mentally disabled and unable to understand what a violation it is then I am afraid that blame lies squarely on the man's shoulders.
However this logic does not apply where girls consent to the act then repent the next day. But then that gets caught in court many times by the jury, my own mother served on a rape case and found in favour of the bloke as the girl's story didn't line up.
Overall the number of women that should be sharing responsibility for their predicament would be less than 25% I would guess.
People have to accept that if you go out and get so drunk you can't get yourself home then you are making yourself needlessly vulnerable.
However every guy I know, knows it is wrong to have sex with a girl without her permission. So unless the guy happens to be mentally disabled and unable to understand what a violation it is then I am afraid that blame lies squarely on the man's shoulders.
However this logic does not apply where girls consent to the act then repent the next day. But then that gets caught in court many times by the jury, my own mother served on a rape case and found in favour of the bloke as the girl's story didn't line up.
Overall the number of women that should be sharing responsibility for their predicament would be less than 25% I would guess.
Heard this on 5 live today - the language used is all wrong. Its not blame its contributing to the event. If you leave your car unlocked its the same as getting in bed with someone drunk. One isnt saying "steal my car" and the other isnt saying "rape me"....but both are asking for trouble.
I also believe the terrible prosecution level is down, in part, to a huge number of false claims...shaggers remorse, as it were.
I also believe the terrible prosecution level is down, in part, to a huge number of false claims...shaggers remorse, as it were.
I wonder how much attitudes have been affected by the few well publicised cases where the woman cries rape for various reasons, such as to hide the fact that she slept with someone else behind her boyfriend's back etc...
I just think that the accused and accuser should be anonymous until conviction. If acquitted, I think the name of the accused should remain anonymous.
I just think that the accused and accuser should be anonymous until conviction. If acquitted, I think the name of the accused should remain anonymous.
If you have a nice expensive car you normally try to keep it hidden away if it is going to an unsafe area?yes.
The pub/club/taxi late at night can be that unsafe area so maybe the ladies should try and protect themselvs a little more?
I am NOT saying it is their fault but sometimes temptation gets the better of some people and if a girl has her lady lumps on display then sadly very sadly things go wrong.
And like the other poster said some repent the next day when the beer goggle have been thrown away.
The pub/club/taxi late at night can be that unsafe area so maybe the ladies should try and protect themselvs a little more?
I am NOT saying it is their fault but sometimes temptation gets the better of some people and if a girl has her lady lumps on display then sadly very sadly things go wrong.
And like the other poster said some repent the next day when the beer goggle have been thrown away.
i'd like to see the stats - i dont think the "grabbed at the taxi ramp" is the typical attack.....i expect its a lot more "drunk, gone home with mr x, got into bed, changed mind" - i'm not saying its not rape at that stage - but its like taking the burglar for a tour of the home before he robs you.
Tiggsy said:
Heard this on 5 live today - the language used is all wrong. Its not blame its contributing to the event. If you leave your car unlocked its the same as getting in bed with someone drunk. One isnt saying "steal my car" and the other isnt saying "rape me"....but both are asking for trouble.
Correct.It's not about blame, it's about contributing factors.
Your behaviour can be partially contributing to an event, but it doesn't make you the one to blame.
If a fit woman walks down the street naked, she isn't to blame if she gets raped but she IS partially responsible.
oyster said:
Tiggsy said:
Heard this on 5 live today - the language used is all wrong. Its not blame its contributing to the event. If you leave your car unlocked its the same as getting in bed with someone drunk. One isnt saying "steal my car" and the other isnt saying "rape me"....but both are asking for trouble.
Correct.It's not about blame, it's about contributing factors.
Your behaviour can be partially contributing to an event, but it doesn't make you the one to blame.
If a fit woman walks down the street naked, she isn't to blame if she gets raped but she IS partially responsible.
oyster said:
If a fit woman walks down the street naked, she isn't to blame if she gets raped but she IS partially responsible.
I just don't get that point of view. She is never responsible for rape. And I mean sex without consent, not retroactive change of mind beer goggles thing. I think it's a part of our society that likes to deflect responsibility for ones own actions as much as possible. 'It's not my fault', 'it's the state', 'it's next door', 'it's the attitude I have to put up with from twonkface everyday' etc. A culture of swerves and not accepting culpability of our actions. I think if it's wrong it's wrong.Jasandjules said:
I just think that the accused and accuser should be anonymous until conviction. If acquitted, I think the name of the accused should remain anonymous.
Indeed, often we see "Mr Joe Bloggs is accused of raping a woman who cannot be named for legal reasons"....... why why why, either keep both anonymous, or publish both names.But then again, just keep them both anonymous, supposed "YOU" were fingered as allegedly raping a woman, your daily life would be hell, whether or not you were convicted or acquitted. So yes keep them both anonymous.
Halb said:
oyster said:
If a fit woman walks down the street naked, she isn't to blame if she gets raped but she IS partially responsible.
I just don't get that point of view. She is never responsible for rape. And I mean sex without consent, not retroactive change of mind beer goggles thing. I think it's a part of our society that likes to deflect responsibility for ones own actions as much as possible. 'It's not my fault', 'it's the state', 'it's next door', 'it's the attitude I have to put up with from twonkface everyday' etc. A culture of swerves and not accepting culpability of our actions. I think if it's wrong it's wrong.Tiggsy said:
Halb said:
oyster said:
If a fit woman walks down the street naked, she isn't to blame if she gets raped but she IS partially responsible.
I just don't get that point of view. She is never responsible for rape. And I mean sex without consent, not retroactive change of mind beer goggles thing. I think it's a part of our society that likes to deflect responsibility for ones own actions as much as possible. 'It's not my fault', 'it's the state', 'it's next door', 'it's the attitude I have to put up with from twonkface everyday' etc. A culture of swerves and not accepting culpability of our actions. I think if it's wrong it's wrong.
Halb said:
oyster said:
If a fit woman walks down the street naked, she isn't to blame if she gets raped but she IS partially responsible.
I just don't get that point of view. She is never responsible for rape. And I mean sex without consent, not retroactive change of mind beer goggles thing. I think it's a part of our society that likes to deflect responsibility for ones own actions as much as possible. 'It's not my fault', 'it's the state', 'it's next door', 'it's the attitude I have to put up with from twonkface everyday' etc. A culture of swerves and not accepting culpability of our actions. I think if it's wrong it's wrong.you. It doesn't make the thief any less of a thief, but it does make you a bit of an idiot...
Vipers said:
Jasandjules said:
I just think that the accused and accuser should be anonymous until conviction. If acquitted, I think the name of the accused should remain anonymous.
Indeed, often we see "Mr Joe Bloggs is accused of raping a woman who cannot be named for legal reasons"....... why why why, either keep both anonymous, or publish both names.But then again, just keep them both anonymous, supposed "YOU" were fingered as allegedly raping a woman, your daily life would be hell, whether or not you were convicted or acquitted. So yes keep them both anonymous.
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