"Cunning plan" by police led to death

[Oakey]

I couldn't help but laugh when I read this story, this guy's underworld enemies must have been pissing themselves at this, what a result for them eh?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8255598.stm

BBC said:

A businessman was shot dead by undercover police after a "cunning plan" to arrest him outside a west London restaurant went wrong, an inquest has been told. A jury returned a verdict of lawful killing on Terry Nicholas.

The 52 year-old had survived an attempt on his life when he was shot and wounded by underworld enemies. Shots had also been fired at his home a few days earlier.

Questionable guy has two attempts made on his life, gets himself a shooter to protect himself, police get tipped off, undercover officers try to nab him as he leaves rear of restaurant, bloke is shot dead.

You don't have to be brain of Britain to work out how this plan might be hugely flawed and where a problem may arise. Shooter or no shooter, if someone had tried to shoot me dead on two recent occasions and plain clothes police jumped out on me my first assumption would probably be that it's hitmen back to finish the job.

And I thought these people were trained? The guy was shot twenty times! TWENTY?!!? That's nearly seven shots per officer, almost an entire clip!! Talk about trigger happy.

[cptsideways]

And who fired the shots a few days earlier I wonder

[Oakey]

cptsideways said:

And who fired the shots a few days earlier I wonder

His 'underworld enemies'? Or are you suggesting the police did it on purpose to set him up?

[Dr Jekyll]

Oakey said:

cptsideways said:

And who fired the shots a few days earlier I wonder

His 'underworld enemies'? Or are you suggesting the police did it on purpose to set him up?

I think the point at issue is whether the police made efforts to find the 'enemies' or concentrated purely on catching the man who wanted to defend himself.

[ExChrispy Porker]

'questionable guy'.
Euthemisms matter. 'armed criminal' would be more accurate.

[Jasandjules]

I am reasonably confident that the Police will have shouted "Armed Police" or "Police" etc. so if he then draws a gun, that's his problem.

I'm not being trite here, but if the Mafioso* (*insert underworld gang etc here) were trying to kill me, I don't think I'd be popping out to a restaraunt.......... Hell, I don't think I'd be answering the door to the Pizza Delivery man.

[ShadownINja]

Snag is, having been shot already the previous week, when someone in casual clothes draws a gun and shouts, "POLICE!" you're gonna think, "Bullst."

[Frederick]

20 times in the head and neck...

Were they trying to decapitate the guy? I thought CO19 aimed for the largest part of the body in a takedown, that being the torso.

20 times in the head and neck smacks of "well, we don't get the chance to do this most of the year so fkit, we'll go for broke!" I thought "several times in the head" w-r-t the de menezes shooting was a bit OTT, but ffs...

TWENTY?????

No need imho, not with three marksmen...

Edited by Frederick on Friday 2nd October 23:37

[Dunk76]

You don't shoot to knock someone out, especially when they're waving a gun around.

Besides, if you're going to do a job you may as well do it properly, and if they double or triple tap, then between three that's not actually a lot of rounds each.

I did idly wonder how they managed to hit his head twenty times - I'd have thought by the fourth or fifth there wouldn't have been much left for the remaining fifteen rounds to hit.

[ninja-lewis]

Frederick said:

20 times in the head and neck...

Were they trying to decapitate the guy? I thought CO19 aimed for the largest part of the body in a takedown, that being the torso.

20 times in the head and neck smacks of "well, we don't get the chance to do this most of the year so fkit, we'll go for broke!" I thought "several times in the head" w-r-t the de menezes shooting was a bit OTT, but ffs...

TWENTY?????

No need imho, not with three marksmen...

Edited by Frederick on Friday 2nd October 23:37

According to the news, he survived the earlier attacks by his 'underworld enemies' because he was wearing body armour. The Police were probably aware of this and had to assume he would wear it again. In that case targeting the central body mass would not have been effective, potentially allowing the suspect to fire again. That leaves a headshot as the only sure way of stopping the threat quickly.

Like Duncan said, 20 times is about 7 rounds each - possibly two sets of 3 round bursts if using submachine guns; not a lot in other words. Doesn't really matter how many marksmen fire either. If you perceive a threat to your life or your colleagues', you're not going to assume the others will also fire back and take their rounds into account; You're going to make sure that if necessary your rounds alone disable the suspect. For all you know the shots fired at you may already have killed your colleagues.

[elster]

Wonder how much it costs to get armed response to act as hitmen?

I guess it wasn't too expensive.

[Baby Huey]

Jasandjules said:

I am reasonably confident that the Police will have shouted "Armed Police" or "Police" etc. so if he then draws a gun, that's his problem.

Of course they would have, just like in the de Menezes case.

[pokethepope]

How many shots did they fire in total, or were 20 fired and all hit the target? That would be an impressive outcome considering they were aiming for a small target, at night, and he would be falling after the first few shots, making the subsequent shots harder to hit accurately.

[Oily Nails]

elster said:

Wonder how much it costs to get armed response to act as hitmen?

I guess it wasn't too expensive.

Cost of a phonecall?

[thinfourth2]

Frederick said:

20 times in the head and neck...

Were they trying to decapitate the guy? I thought CO19 aimed for the largest part of the body in a takedown, that being the torso.

20 times in the head and neck smacks of "well, we don't get the chance to do this most of the year so fkit, we'll go for broke!" I thought "several times in the head" w-r-t the de menezes shooting was a bit OTT, but ffs...

TWENTY?????

No need imho, not with three marksmen...

Edited by Frederick on Friday 2nd October 23:37

I would of thought that after the tenth bullet it would of been hard to find a bit of head still attached to the guy to shoot

Unless it was "HEY!! Bob theres an ear over there quick shoot it"

[Jasandjules]

Baby Huey said:

Jasandjules said:

I am reasonably confident that the Police will have shouted "Armed Police" or "Police" etc. so if he then draws a gun, that's his problem.

Of course they would have, just like in the de Menezes case.

Well, in that case there was a person who may have had his hand on the trigger of an explosive device which would have blown them, and a lot of other people, to Kindgom Come had he been warned. Don't get me wrong, I don't think the Police acted properly in that instance, but I am simply differentiating between the two positions.

In this case, the fellow was simply armed. I do appreciate that he may have though "hey, I bet they're not really armed police" but if so, he's a bit stupid, because if they were hitmen, they wouldn't exactly shout a warning would they? They'd just open fire and he'd be very dead.

[Oakey]

BBC said:

At around 2225 GMT he left the rear of the restaurant alone and was getting on a moped when two unmarked police cars - one with its headlights switched off - drove up the road towards him.

Seriously, this doesn't seem a very well thought out plan.

BBC said:

Documents drawn up by the Met stated that their assessment of the risk to Mr Nicholas was "minimal",

'Minimal'?!?! The guy had three attempts on his life, one of which was whilst he was stood talking to a copper. One hitman just walked up to the pair of them and started blasting. Does that sound like a 'minimal' risk to someones life?

Jasandjules said:

I am reasonably confident that the Police will have shouted "Armed Police" or "Police" etc. so if he then draws a gun, that's his problem.

Erm...

BBC said:

He said he had no time to issue a warning to Mr Nicholas and it would have been pointless at that stage anyway.

They didn't have time to identify themselves because the dead guy automatically assumed that the unmarked cars heading towards him, one with its headlights off, with the plain clothes police inside were hitmen coming to finish the job.

[paddyhasneeds]

20 times in the head.

I'm sure they're very good marksmen but you wouldn't want to be of a similar height and stood anywhere behind him would you?!

[odyssey2200]

Von will be along shortly to toe the company line and tell the OP why we are all wrong!

[Mondeohdear]

Jasandjules said:

I am reasonably confident that the Police will have shouted "Armed Police" or "Police" etc. so if he then draws a gun, that's his problem.

I'm not being trite here, but if the Mafioso* (*insert underworld gang etc here) were trying to kill me, I don't think I'd be popping out to a restaraunt.......... Hell, I don't think I'd be answering the door to the Pizza Delivery man.

And of course, the bad guys wouldn't shout "Armed Police" would they, because that would be a fib