Folks witness a dawn raid by HMRC
Discussion
Big HMRC raid today: Contract Journal
So my folks were out for their early morning jog, about quarter of a mile from home and a van pulls up in the middle of the road and a few other cars beside it.
It being a busy main road, Mother comments "he can't park there" to which Fatha replies "he can; they're police and it's a raid". No we know why...
So my folks were out for their early morning jog, about quarter of a mile from home and a van pulls up in the middle of the road and a few other cars beside it.
It being a busy main road, Mother comments "he can't park there" to which Fatha replies "he can; they're police and it's a raid". No we know why...
CJ said:
Eighteen men and three women from the West Midlands, Staffordshire, London and Manchester were arrested on suspicion of conspiracy to cheat the public revenue and money laundering offences amounting to over £6 million.
The address in quesion is very 'new money' and there's been a few other odd incidents there beforehand.Digga said:
Big HMRC raid today: Contract Journal
So my folks were out for their early morning jog, about quarter of a mile from home and a van pulls up in the middle of the road and a few other cars beside it.
It being a busy main road, Mother comments "he can't park there" to which Fatha replies "he can; they're police and it's a raid". No we know why...
Was it an MP's house?So my folks were out for their early morning jog, about quarter of a mile from home and a van pulls up in the middle of the road and a few other cars beside it.
It being a busy main road, Mother comments "he can't park there" to which Fatha replies "he can; they're police and it's a raid". No we know why...
CJ said:
Eighteen men and three women from the West Midlands, Staffordshire, London and Manchester were arrested on suspicion of conspiracy to cheat the public revenue and money laundering offences amounting to over £6 million.
The address in quesion is very 'new money' and there's been a few other odd incidents there beforehand.Bing o said:
Digga said:
Big HMRC raid today: Contract Journal
So my folks were out for their early morning jog, about quarter of a mile from home and a van pulls up in the middle of the road and a few other cars beside it.
It being a busy main road, Mother comments "he can't park there" to which Fatha replies "he can; they're police and it's a raid". No we know why...
Was it an MP's house?So my folks were out for their early morning jog, about quarter of a mile from home and a van pulls up in the middle of the road and a few other cars beside it.
It being a busy main road, Mother comments "he can't park there" to which Fatha replies "he can; they're police and it's a raid". No we know why...
CJ said:
Eighteen men and three women from the West Midlands, Staffordshire, London and Manchester were arrested on suspicion of conspiracy to cheat the public revenue and money laundering offences amounting to over £6 million.
The address in quesion is very 'new money' and there's been a few other odd incidents there beforehand.The house was a little bit 'new money'. They'd knocked two cottages into one, quite a nice job too and it must certainly have cost some - you do wonder where it's all coming from.
Article says is was related to criminal gangs laundering money.
Article said:
The arrests were made on suspicion of conspiracy to cheat the public revenue and money laundering offences under the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002
Compare with this:Assistant Director of Criminal Investigation for HMRC Adrian Farley said:
Today’s arrests are the result of strenuous efforts by our teams of dedicated officers to disrupt the sophisticated scams of organised crime gangs behind money laundering activities. This conspiracy by a number of contractors is believed to have resulted in the theft of over £6 million from the public purse, depriving vital public services of much needed investment. We are committed to bringing them to justice and to deprive them of the proceeds of their crime.
Typical HMRC, guilty until proven innocent 
Comments of that sort should wait until after the charges, hearing and verdict, whatever the weight of evidence appears to be at the moment. As for depriving public services of funding (pause for eyes to mist up everywhere) adding unrighteous indignation makes it worse.
turbobloke said:
Article said:
The arrests were made on suspicion of conspiracy to cheat the public revenue and money laundering offences under the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002
Compare with this:Assistant Director of Criminal Investigation for HMRC Adrian Farley said:
Today’s arrests are the result of strenuous efforts by our teams of dedicated officers to disrupt the sophisticated scams of organised crime gangs behind money laundering activities. This conspiracy by a number of contractors is believed to have resulted in the theft of over £6 million from the public purse, depriving vital public services of much needed investment. We are committed to bringing them to justice and to deprive them of the proceeds of their crime.
Typical HMRC, guilty until proven innocentComments of that sort should wait until after the charges, hearing and verdict, whatever the weight of evidence appears to be at the moment. As for depriving public services of funding (pause for eyes to mist up everywhere) adding unrighteous indignation makes it worse.
The money laundering regulations are very strict, stray and you're liable.
Not sure what you're saying 
HMRC can issue tax demands on their own basis which can then be challenged, so on that basis they are a law unto themselves. They have some powers equal to or greater than the police against individuals companies and their property, apparently.
However, here, will the case lead to a trial or do HMRC announce the verdict from HM Treasury?! If there will be a trial there is no verdict yet and so a case will need to be proved against the defendants surely. In that context the HMRC chappie was getting ahead of himself in a typical HMRC manner.
HMRC can issue tax demands on their own basis which can then be challenged, so on that basis they are a law unto themselves. They have some powers equal to or greater than the police against individuals companies and their property, apparently.
However, here, will the case lead to a trial or do HMRC announce the verdict from HM Treasury?! If there will be a trial there is no verdict yet and so a case will need to be proved against the defendants surely. In that context the HMRC chappie was getting ahead of himself in a typical HMRC manner.
I'm teasing fatha about this, telling him he's next:
He's currently in dispute with HMRC over a company car which he bought - at fair market value I might add - from one of our firms, but it included a private plate.
The the limited company was 'created' from a partnership (the old man was one partner) which previously owned the vehicle and had paid about £400 in nineteen ninety whatever for the plate. HMRC are trying to get Fatha to stump up for tax on neraly £2k as an additional benefit!
As said, HMRC can and will do things their own way.
He's currently in dispute with HMRC over a company car which he bought - at fair market value I might add - from one of our firms, but it included a private plate.
The the limited company was 'created' from a partnership (the old man was one partner) which previously owned the vehicle and had paid about £400 in nineteen ninety whatever for the plate. HMRC are trying to get Fatha to stump up for tax on neraly £2k as an additional benefit!
As said, HMRC can and will do things their own way.
Edited by Digga on Wednesday 9th September 16:41
turbobloke said:
Not sure what you're saying
HMRC can issue tax demands on their own basis which can then be challenged, so on that basis they are a law unto themselves. They have some powers equal to or greater than the police against individuals companies and their property, apparently.
However, here, will the case lead to a trial or do HMRC announce the verdict from HM Treasury?! If there will be a trial there is no verdict yet and so a case will need to be proved against the defendants surely. In that context the HMRC chappie was getting ahead of himself in a typical HMRC manner.
Not entirely sure if i'm honest. However, what would usually happen is that HMRC will issue some sort of statement, with made up figures on, offer them the chance to make a full disclosure on what's presented to them.HMRC can issue tax demands on their own basis which can then be challenged, so on that basis they are a law unto themselves. They have some powers equal to or greater than the police against individuals companies and their property, apparently.
However, here, will the case lead to a trial or do HMRC announce the verdict from HM Treasury?! If there will be a trial there is no verdict yet and so a case will need to be proved against the defendants surely. In that context the HMRC chappie was getting ahead of himself in a typical HMRC manner.
If they believe there are any irregularities it will lead to a criminal prosecution and lots of paperwork.
It'd be wrong of me to second guess why, but Customs are pretty good and apply a great deal of common sense to their investigations, unlike the Revenue (yes I know they're supposed to be one and the same, but Customs have retained a lot of their powers that haven't passed to Revenue)
ETA, you're right though, the statement was a bit premature, as it's likely to go to a criminal investigation.
Edited by dirty boy on Wednesday 9th September 17:02
turbobloke said:
Typical HMRC, guilty until proven innocent
Innocent?!?Pah! The word has no meaning with HMRC!
From the day we're issued with our NI number - aka The Registration of Guilt - we are all guilty.
From time to time, the HMRC will randomly select one of us and give us the opportunity to admit our guilt by making a small inperceptible error in an allowance, claimable expense, or some other infathomable equation.
Then, at a random period not less than seven years later, we will then be allowed to know of our guilt in failing to spot this tiny error the very instant it occurred, and will be required to pay for our sins within 14 days, compound interest accrued, and no correspondance shall be entered into.
Any guilty person that does spot the error on occurrence and attempts to contact HMRC shall be passed to the entirely imaginary HMRC Department for Complaints, who would - if they existed - allow the individual to repay the money instantly. This department does not exist because HMRC does not make errors; It simply tests people to see if they are paying attention.
HMRC reserves the right to give people the opportunity to admit their guilt at an unlimited number of times during their lives, and at least twice during their death.
HMRC is an equal opportunities employer, and actively seeks to employ individuals typically vocationally disadvantaged through gormlessness, fecklessness, and outright stupidity.
Dunk76 said:
Innocent?!?
Pah! The word has no meaning with HMRC!
From the day we're issued with our NI number - aka The Registration of Guilt - we are all guilty.
From time to time, the HMRC will randomly select one of us and give us the opportunity to admit our guilt by making a small inperceptible error in an allowance, claimable expense, or some other infathomable equation.
Then, at a random period not less than seven years later, we will then be allowed to know of our guilt in failing to spot this tiny error the very instant it occurred, and will be required to pay for our sins within 14 days, compound interest accrued, and no correspondance shall be entered into.
Any guilty person that does spot the error on occurrence and attempts to contact HMRC shall be passed to the entirely imaginary HMRC Department for Complaints, who would - if they existed - allow the individual to repay the money instantly. This department does not exist because HMRC does not make errors; It simply tests people to see if they are paying attention.
HMRC reserves the right to give people the opportunity to admit their guilt at an unlimited number of times during their lives, and at least twice during their death.
HMRC is an equal opportunities employer, and actively seeks to employ individuals typically vocationally disadvantaged through gormlessness, fecklessness, and outright stupidity.
You just know that alarm bells are ringing in HMRC's office after that post. And it's you sir, that is going to be investigated tomorrow. Pah! The word has no meaning with HMRC!
From the day we're issued with our NI number - aka The Registration of Guilt - we are all guilty.
From time to time, the HMRC will randomly select one of us and give us the opportunity to admit our guilt by making a small inperceptible error in an allowance, claimable expense, or some other infathomable equation.
Then, at a random period not less than seven years later, we will then be allowed to know of our guilt in failing to spot this tiny error the very instant it occurred, and will be required to pay for our sins within 14 days, compound interest accrued, and no correspondance shall be entered into.
Any guilty person that does spot the error on occurrence and attempts to contact HMRC shall be passed to the entirely imaginary HMRC Department for Complaints, who would - if they existed - allow the individual to repay the money instantly. This department does not exist because HMRC does not make errors; It simply tests people to see if they are paying attention.
HMRC reserves the right to give people the opportunity to admit their guilt at an unlimited number of times during their lives, and at least twice during their death.
HMRC is an equal opportunities employer, and actively seeks to employ individuals typically vocationally disadvantaged through gormlessness, fecklessness, and outright stupidity.
I obviously think HMRC does a great job and the little matter of the 10k I alledgedly owe you will be sorted in due course, by the fine upstanding gentleman that work there.
The update on the address in Stafford is that, as of 5pm last night, there were still officers on the scene. So either they've found a few large, family sized bags of donuts, or there's plenty of evidence on site.
The HMRC's 'random' tax investigations cause huge inconvenience and disruption to innocent businesses. My late accountant told me of a number of cases where the owners of a perfectly innocent business under investigation - bearing in mind the duration of these ordeals is often many months - have been close to breakdown.
One of our businesses has been been under investigation since late last year (hence the wrangle about Digga senior's number plates) and they have nothing; there is nothing to find and we assured them of this at the outset. The fact that after ten months theyt are down to arguing about trifling issues like the plate - a few hundred pounds wirth of tax here and there - shows that this is a waste of public money and a severe buggerance and burden on a business that's bust surviving the biggest state sponsored economic meltdown of the millennia.
The HMRC's 'random' tax investigations cause huge inconvenience and disruption to innocent businesses. My late accountant told me of a number of cases where the owners of a perfectly innocent business under investigation - bearing in mind the duration of these ordeals is often many months - have been close to breakdown.
One of our businesses has been been under investigation since late last year (hence the wrangle about Digga senior's number plates) and they have nothing; there is nothing to find and we assured them of this at the outset. The fact that after ten months theyt are down to arguing about trifling issues like the plate - a few hundred pounds wirth of tax here and there - shows that this is a waste of public money and a severe buggerance and burden on a business that's bust surviving the biggest state sponsored economic meltdown of the millennia.
Digga said:
The HMRC's 'random' tax investigations cause huge inconvenience and disruption to innocent businesses. My late accountant told me of a number of cases where the owners of a perfectly innocent business under investigation - bearing in mind the duration of these ordeals is often many months - have been close to breakdown.
One of our businesses has been been under investigation since late last year (hence the wrangle about Digga senior's number plates) and they have nothing; there is nothing to find and we assured them of this at the outset. The fact that after ten months theyt are down to arguing about trifling issues like the plate - a few hundred pounds wirth of tax here and there - shows that this is a waste of public money and a severe buggerance and burden on a business that's bust surviving the biggest state sponsored economic meltdown of the millennia.
Sadly your experience is commonplace, as I know you realise from your opening remark (above). The trouble is that after investing so many hours of investigative time and getting nowhere, they seem to get desperate to claw back some of the cost from anywhere and go for the most ridiculous angles while applying more pressure. The result for a sole trader can, as you say, be disastrous and for no good reason at all. It's basically immoral and ought to be criminal.One of our businesses has been been under investigation since late last year (hence the wrangle about Digga senior's number plates) and they have nothing; there is nothing to find and we assured them of this at the outset. The fact that after ten months theyt are down to arguing about trifling issues like the plate - a few hundred pounds wirth of tax here and there - shows that this is a waste of public money and a severe buggerance and burden on a business that's bust surviving the biggest state sponsored economic meltdown of the millennia.
turbobloke said:
Digga said:
The HMRC's 'random' tax investigations cause huge inconvenience and disruption to innocent businesses. My late accountant told me of a number of cases where the owners of a perfectly innocent business under investigation - bearing in mind the duration of these ordeals is often many months - have been close to breakdown.
One of our businesses has been been under investigation since late last year (hence the wrangle about Digga senior's number plates) and they have nothing; there is nothing to find and we assured them of this at the outset. The fact that after ten months theyt are down to arguing about trifling issues like the plate - a few hundred pounds wirth of tax here and there - shows that this is a waste of public money and a severe buggerance and burden on a business that's bust surviving the biggest state sponsored economic meltdown of the millennia.
Sadly your experience is commonplace, as I know you realise from your opening remark (above). The trouble is that after investing so many hours of investigative time and getting nowhere, they seem to get desperate to claw back some of the cost from anywhere and go for the most ridiculous angles while applying more pressure. The result for a sole trader can, as you say, be disastrous and for no good reason at all. It's basically immoral and ought to be criminal.One of our businesses has been been under investigation since late last year (hence the wrangle about Digga senior's number plates) and they have nothing; there is nothing to find and we assured them of this at the outset. The fact that after ten months theyt are down to arguing about trifling issues like the plate - a few hundred pounds wirth of tax here and there - shows that this is a waste of public money and a severe buggerance and burden on a business that's bust surviving the biggest state sponsored economic meltdown of the millennia.
telecat said:
turbobloke said:
Digga said:
The HMRC's 'random' tax investigations cause huge inconvenience and disruption to innocent businesses. My late accountant told me of a number of cases where the owners of a perfectly innocent business under investigation - bearing in mind the duration of these ordeals is often many months - have been close to breakdown.
One of our businesses has been been under investigation since late last year (hence the wrangle about Digga senior's number plates) and they have nothing; there is nothing to find and we assured them of this at the outset. The fact that after ten months theyt are down to arguing about trifling issues like the plate - a few hundred pounds wirth of tax here and there - shows that this is a waste of public money and a severe buggerance and burden on a business that's bust surviving the biggest state sponsored economic meltdown of the millennia.
Sadly your experience is commonplace, as I know you realise from your opening remark (above). The trouble is that after investing so many hours of investigative time and getting nowhere, they seem to get desperate to claw back some of the cost from anywhere and go for the most ridiculous angles while applying more pressure. The result for a sole trader can, as you say, be disastrous and for no good reason at all. It's basically immoral and ought to be criminal.One of our businesses has been been under investigation since late last year (hence the wrangle about Digga senior's number plates) and they have nothing; there is nothing to find and we assured them of this at the outset. The fact that after ten months theyt are down to arguing about trifling issues like the plate - a few hundred pounds wirth of tax here and there - shows that this is a waste of public money and a severe buggerance and burden on a business that's bust surviving the biggest state sponsored economic meltdown of the millennia.
At any time, but especially now with so many businesses fighting hard for survival, it is a most unfair system. Granted they can, will and should drop at random and find major breaches of the law, but where initial research reveals no such offence and co-operation is been full, a lighter touch should then be applied.
Dunk76 said:
Hence my post above.
Tongue in cheek it may have been, but I've been on the receiving end of HMRC in that situation, and my late Father was investigated twice in thirty years as a self-employed electrician.
Funny it isn't
Exactly!Tongue in cheek it may have been, but I've been on the receiving end of HMRC in that situation, and my late Father was investigated twice in thirty years as a self-employed electrician.
Funny it isn't
We're big enough and ugly enough to deal with it and our accountants - depsite the sad and unexpected demise of the partner who specifically looked after our business for the last ten years (you never get to deal with just one problem at a time!) - are also more than capable. This, for us, is the second third time we've had some sort of investigation in 18 years.
As far as we're concerned, s
t happens but for other businesses, especially but not only smaller ones, the process is highly intimidating and totalitarian.Saw this on the news the other night. I did think it was funny that I know of a number of people in the old 'limited' company game who have gone bust owing other companies millions at seemingly no loss to themselves. However try and do it to HMRC pocket and you're in a world of pain!
Assistant Director of Criminal Investigation for HMRC Adrian Farley said:
Today’s arrests are the result of strenuous efforts by our teams of dedicated officers to disrupt the sophisticated scams of organised crime gangs behind money laundering activities. This conspiracy by a number of contractors is believed to have resulted in the theft of over £6 million from the public purse, depriving vital public services of much needed investment. We are committed to bringing them to justice and to deprive them of the proceeds of their crime.
What a tosser.It's taxpayers money - not public service money to be lavished on biscuits at HMRC.
This politicisation of the civil service stinks.
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