Clegg wants better pay for armed forces

[JJCW]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8232737.stm

Superb idea imo, raise the pay of those in the field by ridding the MoD of those in desk jobs. 2 desk jobs per soldier? Amazing.

[Taita]

Bit of a discussion over here from some serving also:

http://www.arrse.co.uk/Forums/viewtopic/t=132300.h...

[Four Cofffee]

Better operational war zone pay might be the answer, and FFS better support when they get injured. In fact, here's an idea: Everyone who gets injured is guranteed one of those desk jockey jobs.

[raf_gti]

I often wonder how long the support for the forces will continue. Would there be such a clamour to increase the pay if not for Iraq/Afghanistan?

Not that I am complaining of course but I can forsee a massive backlash (being the Brtish way of build 'em up, knock 'em down) in a few years time when the public starts to resent how much the military is being payed for being in a warzone that no-one has support for.

[trickywoo]

There are still a number of officers riding the gravey train. Picking and choosing what they fancy and what they don't. Fat salaries and even fatter pensions.

Its still (and probably always will be) the 'cannon fodder' classes that suffer. I'd have no problem with paying them more.

[bobbylondonuk]

Why is the MOD having civilian desk jobs when there are enough disabled and non field trained soldiers available to do the same job? The soldiers would be much more happier and the MOD would run much better. Efficiency would be higher and the MOD would run like the armed forces rather than a council!

bd government...they dont even have the simple ideas to solve problems and make things as efficient as possible! Fear not people...there are still enough working people to drown with taxation!

[Asterix]

Also stop tax when serving abroad.

Always wound me up when I was serving.

[Parrot of Doom]

bobbylondonuk said:

Why is the MOD having civilian desk jobs when there are enough disabled and non field trained soldiers available to do the same job? The soldiers would be much more happier and the MOD would run much better. Efficiency would be higher and the MOD would run like the armed forces rather than a council!

I think you'll find that in most occupations, footsoldiers (no pun intended) don't automatically make good managers.

[loltolhurst]

playing devils advocate why should an 18 year old get more than 20k isnt it supply and demand? 110% agree they should be looked after better if injured and get rid of desk jobs but should they really get more? i presume they have no costs when abroad ie free food / board etc so its not that bad ( and yes i know they can get shot but thats part of joining the army ). not sure if they should not have to pay tax either why shouldnt they if everyone else has to?

[derestrictor]

Clegg should want better/more equipment, first.

Newsnight feature recently: correspondent on patrol with US Marines.

On return to base, one of their patrol's APCs had been tw@tted by an IED.

Some of it's occupants were sat nearby, having a smoke with the odd bruise the only physical trauma.

The vehicle was badly damaged by it was no tangled mangle of metal.

Like a f@cking Landrover would have been...

[bobbylondonuk]

Parrot of Doom said:

bobbylondonuk said:

Why is the MOD having civilian desk jobs when there are enough disabled and non field trained soldiers available to do the same job? The soldiers would be much more happier and the MOD would run much better. Efficiency would be higher and the MOD would run like the armed forces rather than a council!

I think you'll find that in most occupations, footsoldiers (no pun intended) don't automatically make good managers.

you might have a point...but then how many civilian managers would the MOD need? surely 90% of the jobs in the admin departments are not managerial and all 'foot soldiers' are better team players at getting the job done and result focused than any civilian in the MOD. am i wrong?

[Parrot of Doom]

How should I know? I don't work there, and have no interest in the military.

[ninja-lewis]

bobbylondonuk said:

Parrot of Doom said:

bobbylondonuk said:

Why is the MOD having civilian desk jobs when there are enough disabled and non field trained soldiers available to do the same job? The soldiers would be much more happier and the MOD would run much better. Efficiency would be higher and the MOD would run like the armed forces rather than a council!

I think you'll find that in most occupations, footsoldiers (no pun intended) don't automatically make good managers.

you might have a point...but then how many civilian managers would the MOD need? surely 90% of the jobs in the admin departments are not managerial and all 'foot soldiers' are better team players at getting the job done and result focused than any civilian in the MOD. am i wrong?

It depends on what figure is being used. An oft-quoted one is the 87,500 total civilian staff to 175,000 servicemen. What is often missed is that civilian figure includes groups like Royal Fleet Auxillary, MOD Police, MOD Guard Service and various other agencies that have been civilianised in recent years. On top of that, a lot of those civilians are employed in science or manual roles (dock workers, storemen, cleaners etc).

[Funk]

JJCW said:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8232737.stm

Superb idea imo, raise the pay of those in the field by ridding the MoD of those in desk jobs. 2 desk jobs per soldier? Amazing.

It's two soldiers per desk job - but still astonishing. Too many chiefs.

[Dunk76]

Funk said:

JJCW said:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8232737.stm

Superb idea imo, raise the pay of those in the field by ridding the MoD of those in desk jobs. 2 desk jobs per soldier? Amazing.

It's two soldiers per desk job - but still astonishing. Too many chiefs.

That's actually remarkably efficient if we have two combat heads for every administrative head. Compare that the US Army, and I reckon you'll find the figure may be close to 1 combat for every three admin.

Although, that said, there's probably a bit of creative accounting on what one might term 'combatant' - I expect we apply that to anyone who's completed basic training, where the US probably applies it only to 7ft 17 stone jarheads armed to the teeth.

Anyway, cutting administration to pay the troops more - what's that going to achieve? Even more administrative fk-ups, which will only cost more casualties as stuff goes missing, doesn't get where it's supposed to, or is simply wrong.

[Taita]

derestrictor said:

Clegg should want better/more equipment, first.

Newsnight feature recently: correspondent on patrol with US Marines.

On return to base, one of their patrol's APCs had been tw@tted by an IED.

Some of it's occupants were sat nearby, having a smoke with the odd bruise the only physical trauma.

The vehicle was badly damaged by it was no tangled mangle of metal.

Like a f@cking Landrover would have been...

You are trying to compare a land rover to an APC?!

[eccles]

bobbylondonuk said:

Parrot of Doom said:

bobbylondonuk said:

Why is the MOD having civilian desk jobs when there are enough disabled and non field trained soldiers available to do the same job? The soldiers would be much more happier and the MOD would run much better. Efficiency would be higher and the MOD would run like the armed forces rather than a council!

I think you'll find that in most occupations, footsoldiers (no pun intended) don't automatically make good managers.

you might have a point...but then how many civilian managers would the MOD need? surely 90% of the jobs in the admin departments are not managerial and all 'foot soldiers' are better team players at getting the job done and result focused than any civilian in the MOD. am i wrong?

Ah bless, you seem to have a very rose tinted view of " all foot soldiers"!

There are a fair share of feckless, useless and lazy foot soldiers in the army the same as in any civvy job.

[Fittster]

All politicians want better front line services by cutting waste but it's never achieved. The state is inefficient and can't be reformed.

[Mr POD]

bobbylondonuk said:

Parrot of Doom said:

bobbylondonuk said:

Why is the MOD having civilian desk jobs when there are enough disabled and non field trained soldiers available to do the same job? The soldiers would be much more happier and the MOD would run much better. Efficiency would be higher and the MOD would run like the armed forces rather than a council!

I think you'll find that in most occupations, footsoldiers (no pun intended) don't automatically make good managers.

you might have a point...but then how many civilian managers would the MOD need? surely 90% of the jobs in the admin departments are not managerial and all 'foot soldiers' are better team players at getting the job done and result focused than any civilian in the MOD. am i wrong?

I'm working as a Contract Process Engineer for part of the MOD in a tank rebuild factory, trying to implement Lean. Or any sort of efficiency.
Whilst I need to be careful what I say about the hand that Feeds me, I can say that RED tape, and mis-management are because of a lack of competition. Like the council, like the civil service, like the BBC, like the NHS, like any large organisation that's become fat. There are a lot of Ex army people in the organisation and the problem is the lack of experience in organisations that have real competition, where a competitor can steal all your customers overnight, where failure to invest and failure to change quickly means 1000's of job cuts. In the real world you get made redundant in spite of the efficiencies you made. Not in the MOD.

Note they can give me 24 hours notice and march me offsite for no reason at any time, and shop floor people know that they only have to say you're not listening to their (frankly, stupid, in many cases) opinions and you are waved goodbye.

[Quick silver]

Taita said:

derestrictor said:

Clegg should want better/more equipment, first.

Newsnight feature recently: correspondent on patrol with US Marines.

On return to base, one of their patrol's APCs had been tw@tted by an IED.

Some of it's occupants were sat nearby, having a smoke with the odd bruise the only physical trauma.

The vehicle was badly damaged by it was no tangled mangle of metal.

Like a f@cking Landrover would have been...

You are trying to compare a land rover to an APC?!

No............he's comparing the support given to US troops by their government as opposed to the lack of support given to our troops by our government.